Housing & Mortgage Woes: Part II?

Probably one of the biggest/best answers to housing problems in the US is remote work. It doubles as a big help for climate problems too. There's plenty of relatively inexpensive housing in the US, but it's not close to where you want to work.
This only really applies to white collar workers though...which potentially exacerbates the issue. This was pretty evident when office workers in the SF Bay Area shipped off to Tahoe to run out the pandemic while working remote...meanwhile the people who already lived in Tahoe were suddenly faced with more limited job opportunities (lot of service jobs up there) and simultaneously increasing rent prices. Same is true for a lot of smaller towns in New England and places like Boise Idaho.
 
Fair questions. To the former, no, but to look at it simply.. you have a portion of your life where you can earn, and a portion where you don't. Buying means your largest outlay in old age disappears and your pension enables a fruitful life in your autumn years. Renting means your pension is used to cover your largest outlay and you've got sod all else to do but wait to die.

As for achieving it right away. In practice, it's the best way to do it. Once you leave home and enter the rental situation your ability to save for a deposit to buy is diminished or removed... staying at home with Mum and Dad until you find a life partner is by a long, long, long way the easiest way to save money, so it makes sense for your first move to be into your own place.
Looking at it simply, it is how you put it. You have income early on and nothing later, but that's not a given. For example if you buy multiple properties early in life, you can use them to generate rental income later on. Or, since getting even a first house is the crux of the thread, you can invest money in the market during your working years and end up with income later on, income possibly exceeding your working income.

This ties in with renting vs buying. While renting does reduce you saving/investment capability, it shouldn't remove it. Budgeting for affordability needs to be a pretty high priority, and I'd say in the case of renting, don't do it unless it's going to profit. In other words don't move out and rent unless you need to for your job. If you can work from your family's home do it. If you don't have a job, don't move out. For some people I realize this isn't an option unfortunately, but for those who are able it needs to be considered. I also don't want to imply that anyone no matter their situation has excess cash to use to prop themselves up, just that it's an option to strive for in general.

Here someone else explores the simplified math on buying vs renting. Buying tends to come out a head, but not always by leaps.



We have shared ownership properties in the UK where you pay rent AND mortgage, and can't liquidate your investment unless the co-owner can buy you out or you can sell your half (where I live that means trying to sell half a **** hole surrounded by crack heads to other crack heads with no money, or to people that don't want to live next to crack heads at any cost). Shared rentals would make a lot of sense, but in my experience land lords absolutely do not want anything other than couples or single professionals. I've considered pretending to be gay in order to rent a place with a similarly cash strapped colleague... but the first flat inspection would have been a bust!
I am not super familiar with the ins and outs of co-owning, but your points do make sense. I'm sure it has its own set of challenges that need to be accounted for, but it seems to be becoming more common in the US at least. Hopefully normalization of the practice will help with some of the drawbacks. Interestingly along with price, average house size has gone up over the years too (in the US, I'm not sure about the UK) so sharing property is a way of getting on more equal footing with past home owners who had cheaper options available just because housing footprints were smaller.
I've done it a number of times. I'm currently renting three rooms in my sisters house, and whilst it is possible, I would suggest it's not great for mental health in the long term - though this varies by person, I'm sure - but to me, feeling like an outsider in the place you live is not great, or sustainable for more than a year or two.
Certainly it won't be for everyone. Like I said before, I'd prefer to not share my space, but if I really needed to I think I could handle it as long as it let me get closer to getting my own place.
I think the societal issues in the US and UK are probably different, not least because of our differing healthcare and welfare system, and while comparisons to the past might not be that helpful they are inevitable. We will have generations in the future where more people than ever will be facing old age alone, with little pension and no investment, no accumulated wealth to liquidate, no shelter of their own, and a follow on generation that inherits nothing from parents who only just achieved financial freedom at the point they loose their income, and trade their kids inheritance for social care as they slowly die enjoying ever increasingly expensive treatments. In the UK, sustaining that means taking more taxes from working people/young people, and you can see how that ends up in a **** loop.

edit: tl;dr... in the UK I believe the housing market needs to be decimated by a massive increase in supply that excludes BTL buyers. People will have more money to spend (redistribute wealth to many people rather than just landlords and bankers) and it means that come old age they're more likely to have an asset to liquidate to pay for their OWN welfare costs instead of burdening the young.
It's definitely not a simple issue. More supply would be great but it seems like that goes against the nature of home building, especially now that we're post pandemic with all the supply and economic issues that tagged along.
Probably one of the biggest/best answers to housing problems in the US is remote work. It doubles as a big help for climate problems too. There's plenty of relatively inexpensive housing in the US, but it's not close to where you want to work.
Agreed. Interestingly I bought this house to be close to my office, just in time to become a nearly full time work from home employee. If I had a crystal ball for the work situation alone, I'd be a lot better off financially.
 
Probably one of the biggest/best answers to housing problems in the US is remote work. It doubles as a big help for climate problems too. There's plenty of relatively inexpensive housing in the US, but it's not close to where you want to work.
A lot of that inexpensive housing is also in areas where high speed internet is either unreliable or unavailable, and without that remote working isn't feasible.
 
edit: tl;dr... in the UK I believe the housing market needs to be decimated by a massive increase in supply that excludes BTL buyers. People will have more money to spend (redistribute wealth to many people rather than just landlords and bankers) and it means that come old age they're more likely to have an asset to liquidate to pay for pool their OWN welfare costs instead of burdening the young.
I’m a firm believer in affordable, first home buyer only real estate. Get the government, (not a business whose in it for profit), to carve up an old farmers land on the outskirts of the outskirts. Build a tonne of identical homes, prefab them in a warehouse into a kit to save on building costs. Run the train line out to this new development and let business grow it into a suburb.

Sell the houses to cover costs, provide government home loans with very low deposit and a very high interest rate. Then chuck in a contracted no-sale date of 5 years, tied to a cannot be owned with any other property clause.

Watch them be snapped up overnight. Many will live there forever. Some will eventually sell to buy a dream home, freeing it up for another young person coming through. It’s the regulated, hand holding first step that simply does not exist for anybody unless they have wealthy parents.

Unfortunately a scheme like this will never get through as it potentially lowers the value of their (and the voting boomers) investment portfolios. Which is a damn shame to say the least.
 
This only really applies to white collar workers though...which potentially exacerbates the issue. This was pretty evident when office workers in the SF Bay Area shipped off to Tahoe to run out the pandemic while working remote...meanwhile the people who already lived in Tahoe were suddenly faced with more limited job opportunities (lot of service jobs up there) and simultaneously increasing rent prices. Same is true for a lot of smaller towns in New England and places like Boise Idaho.
It moves demand for service jobs to those smaller communities. With remote workers moving elsewhere, they take demand for services to those locations - which is good for service jobs, because we want that demand to move out of the city. It sucks for inner city service workers, who get laid off due to the outflow of residents, but they have to follow the demand (and this is ultimately good for their cost of living). A greater distribution of demand for housing, and corresponding distribution of demand for service work, is overall what we're after here if we want living to be affordable. The opposite is true if you want cost of living to skyrocket - centralize the demand on a single city, and make it a requirement to live there to find work. That's a recipe for the problem we're talking about.

Remote workers are not displacing work in the town they move to, they keep their old job.
A lot of that inexpensive housing is also in areas where high speed internet is either unreliable or unavailable, and without that remote working isn't feasible.
That's changing quickly. But also, there is a lot of inexpensive housing where high speed internet is available and reliable.
 
Last edited:
A lot of that inexpensive housing is also in areas where high speed internet is either unreliable or unavailable, and without that remote working isn't feasible.
Starlink!

Edit: I would just like to add that I am days away from having to sign a new lease for my studio apartment, which increased $150/mo over last year to be mid $800's for a 13 month lease. Asking price for month to month is $1,600. Out of curiosity I just went looking for something in the eastern Phoenix suburbs, and the asking price for 1 bedroom apartments is averaging $1,300-1,500/mo. Last year I was getting quotes of $1,100-1,300. I expect by the end of next year for them to be asking $1,600+.

Absolutely demoralizing knowing that I am stuck where I am and cannot afford to go anywhere else.
 
Last edited:
The problem for many with not owning a home is handling retirement. Still having to find money for rent when your available income take a massive dive when you retire will be crippling for so many people.
When I ask the question I'm not trying to imply that one should rent forever. The solution to housing many have in mind is that a person should acquire property of their own ASAP. Since that's difficult I'm trying to suggest different routes. Can you expect to inherit property? Can you share living expenses with family (many ways to do this, live with parents early on, live with siblings, have parents move in with you, etc)? Can you invest in something other than a home with the upfront savings you get by renting vs buying?
 
When I ask the question I'm not trying to imply that one should rent forever. The solution to housing many have in mind is that a person should acquire property of their own ASAP. Since that's difficult I'm trying to suggest different routes. Can you expect to inherit property? Can you share living expenses with family (many ways to do this, live with parents early on, live with siblings, have parents move in with you, etc)? Can you invest in something other than a home with the upfront savings you get by renting vs buying?
It is not impossible for some to find other ways - I agree.

It is sobering though just how difficult it is for younger generations to afford a to buy a home. I'm acutely aware that I could not afford the house I live in at today's prices as its value has increased by over 300% since I bought it 12 years ago.
 
Since that's difficult I'm trying to suggest different routes
One route I considered, was to buy a tiny canal boat to live on. At the time it would've been possible to buy something barely serviceable for less than £25,000. This is typically the max amount you can get as an unsecured loan here. I'd then plan to live on it (and make it nicer) during the duration of that loan (5 years), then sell it when it's paid for (ideally for more than £25k), and use the proceeds as a deposit for a mortgage. The problem is, living on a boat brings with it a bunch of other expenses and problems that make it less viable (and living in a 20ft by 6ft box for 5 years). Also, my debt was spiraling at the time and borrowing £25k would not actually have been an option.

Can you share living expenses with family (many ways to do this, live with parents early on, live with siblings, have parents move in with you, etc)?
One of the other problems with sharing is the space required. According to a very quick google, the average dwelling size in the UK is about a third of what it is in the US... things get cosy real quick!

1632320491872.png
 
Last edited:
Found this the other day on rent.com and it seems a bit sketchy. Brand new house renting for $850/mo when every other house is at least twice that? Emailed back and forth with the "renter" a few times, of course they are not around and the person they are using to show people the property is out because "his wife had a baby this morning". Insisted I go look at it, which I did, but couldn't see inside because the blinds were mostly closed and I wasn't about to go wandering into the backyard. Did a quick google search, it sold on August 31st for $257k, but I'm no hacker so I don't know how to get any more info lol. I emailed him back tonight and asked for proof of ownership. We'll see...

1632447974514.png
 
Found this the other day on rent.com and it seems a bit sketchy. Brand new house renting for $850/mo when every other house is at least twice that? Emailed back and forth with the "renter" a few times, of course they are not around and the person they are using to show people the property is out because "his wife had a baby this morning". Insisted I go look at it, which I did, but couldn't see inside because the blinds were mostly closed and I wasn't about to go wandering into the backyard. Did a quick google search, it sold on August 31st for $257k, but I'm no hacker so I don't know how to get any more info lol. I emailed him back tonight and asked for proof of ownership. We'll see...

View attachment 1082339
Be careful...scams like this exist. Very unlikely they would rent out a house for less than the mortgage payment. They'll typically ask for a deposit and then you'll never hear from them again.
 
Last edited:
Be careful...scams like this exist. Very unlikely they would rent out a house for less than the mortgage payment. They'll typically ask for a deposit and then you'll never hear from them again.
I straight up asked for proof of ownership. No response yet.
 
I straight up asked for proof of ownership. No response yet.
Its listing seems to have been removed, and the only other 3bed/2bath property in that area is listed as going for $2,200/month. And considering even the cheapest studio apartment is going for $1,000/month... yeeeah, if it were any fishier the place would have a Long John Silver's sign on it.
 
Back