How and Why drifting works (Am I correct?)

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Sohcahtoa

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Sohcahtoa82
Based on what I've seen, read, and experienced (Well, tried, anyways), I'm going to take a guess on why drifting works. Note that this only really applys to FR, not FF or 4WD.

You're entering a corner. You turn the wheel, and either hit the E-Brake or mash the gas or do something to make the rear wheels break traction. You begin to oversteer. The car may be going in what is still a nearly straight line, but the car is starting to point at the inside of the corner. Under normal conditions, you'd probably keep going in a near straight line while spinning and hit the outside wall. However, you countersteer.

The rear tires still have no traction, but you've got the front tires pointed in the direction of travel. However, the weight of the car is pulling to the outside, so the car is technically spinning out, but the front tires are still gripping. As the back end of the car continues to rotate, the front tires follow the curve of the turn. The weight of the car is shifted in a direction that is perpendicular to the direction of travel. For example, in a 180 degree turn that starts going North and ends going South, then when the car is halfway through the turn, the weight of the car will be shifted to the North.

However, if you don't countersteer enough, then the front tires will begin to slide, and the car will begin to spin out. By then letting go of the gas a bit, the rear tires can regain some traction and control the spin to resume the controlled drift. But if you let the gas off too much, then the rear tires regain all their traction back, and the car will completely straighten out.

On the other hand, if you countersteer too much then the front end will turn towards the outside, and all the tires are likely to regain all their traction very quickly. However, a quick hit on the e-brake can make sure that the rear tires don't regain their traction and can help for sustaining a very long drift.

In either situation, premature termination of a drift is likely to cause you to be heading towards the outside wall at a speed and angle where it is unlikely that you will avoid crashing into the wall because the front wheels will be sliding until the car straightens out. Even if you turn the front wheels into the direction of travel to straighten the car out sooner, a crash is hard to avoid because then the weight of the car will be transferred to the inside of the turn, plus the back end will have the momentum of moving back towards the inside.

Again, I'm pretty much a drifting newbie, and totally suck at it since I use a controller, and I could be totally wrong.

How correct am I in this post?
 
well you seem to understand the concept but you've managed to turn something so easy into an over complicated explaination.
seriously, it's not as complex as you make it out to be. it's just drifting, even gt3 amateurs can do it.
i would advise you not to use the e-brake mid corner to prolong the drift. it will do either one of two things.
outcome one :
it will do absolutely nothing because 'hand brakies' do not work unless you have some sideway momentum.
outcome two :
it will throw you out of control, making you, potentially, a passenger in your own car you are driving. it justs wreck your balance, drifting line and angle. probably flip you around and then you'll be facing oncoming traffic.
 
When I mention using the e-brake to prolong a drift, I don't mean to hold it for a long time. I've tried drifting around the turns on Super Speedway, but often find that my rear tires end up regaining traction (Even with TCS off). I usually will hold the e-brake down for about a second to increase my angle.

Although there HAVE been times where I held it too long and spun out. Usually I don't spin a full 360 though, and just find myself drifting at a 90 degree angle, and I lose speed FAST. Then of course I'm facing the inside wall so by the time my front tires have regained enough traction to turn, I'm going REALLY slow.

Of course, my problem was probably actually being caused by using T8 Super-Soft tires. Too much grip I guess.

How much grip do the Sims have? What tires could they be compared to?

EDIT: While you may find that drifting is very simple and easy, I really disagree. If it was so simple and easy, then we wouldn't have a thousand people trying to find help about it.
 
Sohcahtoa
When I mention using the e-brake to prolong a drift, I don't mean to hold it for a long time. I've tried drifting around the turns on Super Speedway, but often find that my rear tires end up regaining traction (Even with TCS off). I usually will hold the e-brake down for about a second to increase my angle.

Although there HAVE been times where I held it too long and spun out. Usually I don't spin a full 360 though, and just find myself drifting at a 90 degree angle, and I lose speed FAST. Then of course I'm facing the inside wall so by the time my front tires have regained enough traction to turn, I'm going REALLY slow.

Of course, my problem was probably actually being caused by using T8 Super-Soft tires. Too much grip I guess.

How much grip do the Sims have? What tires could they be compared to?

EDIT: While you may find that drifting is very simple and easy, I really disagree. If it was so simple and easy, then we wouldn't have a thousand people trying to find help about it.
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I believe he means the concept of drifting is easy to understand, actually executing a well blanced drift is indeed very complicated. the sims have less grip that normal tires, nothing really equivelates them, they are what they are.
 
Less grip than the normal stock tires!? Man, if I can't control a car on normal tires, there's no way I'd be able to control one on sims.
 
What car are you using, cuase if you cant control it on normals than something is definetly wrong, maybe too much hp, or your c/s or throttle control needs work. What car are you using and how much hp?
 
when you start using sims for the first time in your gt3 life then it feels like you're tires are made of ice, but eventually you'll get the drift of things and learn better skills than handbrakies
hundreds of people come to this forum asking for help and settings because they want the quick answers, the easy solutions. most don't even run a search or even read some threads on the community before posting. that is how lazy these people are. practice, not a 2 second google, is the path to successful car control.
 
kainzero
throttle control is more important than countersteer.
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They are equally important... Don't make the mistake of prioritizing drift techniques... They all have their place...

Sohcahtoa...

You have the right idea.. As previously stated, your description is a bit longwinded, but correct nonetheless...

Again, I'm pretty much a drifting newbie, and totally suck at it since I use a controller, and I could be totally wrong.
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It has nothing to do with your control choice... Myself, and many other drifters, use the Dual Shock 2 and can drift as smooth as those with a wheel... A wheel is definitely the best way to really get into the driving experience, but it is not necessarily the easiest way...

If you need help with technique, settings, or with the controller, I can help... Just send me a PM and I will do all I can to help...

Less grip than the normal stock tires!? Man, if I can't control a car on normal tires, there's no way I'd be able to control one on sims.
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Your tire choice should be directly related to the HP and weight of the vehicle... As a general rule:

stock to 300hp - sims
350hp to 500hp - normals, sports
550hp to 750hp - super slicks to mediums (generally)
800hp to 1000hp - medium softs to super softs


Now, the weight of the vehicle also comes into play... a light car (Trueno) will need less HP than a heavy car (Chaser)... So, a bit of fine tuning is required to maintain balance...

I hope this helps...


;)
 
Man i'm serious SilviaDrifter you know a lot lol looks like your a physicist or something. Or at least programmed GT3 well thanks for the info on tires.
 
To ellaborate... The engine also has a lot to do with the your tire choice... Different engines have different powerbands, response, and torque ratings, so that needs to be considered when building your drift car... For example, vehicles with rotary engines (FC3S, FD3S) have poor torque in the mid to low end, so a bit more power is necessary to achieve the same results as you would get with an Inline, V, or Boxer powerplant...

Man i'm serious SilviaDrifter you know a lot lol looks like your a physicist or something. Or at least programmed GT3 well thanks for the info on tires.
Click to expand...

I'm just a schmuck that loves drifting and isn't afraid to do a little research to advance my knowledge of said sport...


;)
 
sohcahtoa, you seem to understand how drifting is done via physics. Now you can use the knowledge to help you in the practical side ^^
 
They are equally important... Don't make the mistake of prioritizing drift techniques... They all have their place...
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well, in general, when i learned how to drift, the main problem was mostly power control. learning how to control the power is much harder than learning when to steer, especially on sims.

i also use the DS2. it's not bad. when i used a wheel i couldn't drive straight :)

the advantage of the wheel is that it offers more precise steering and throttle input. yes, the DS2 is analog, but the difference in the 255 possible X inputs is probably less than micrometer, whereas the pedal can go down a foot or too.

but the main factor when learning how to drift is learning how to predict the behavior of the car given the conditions of throttle input and steering input, which is mostly attained through practice. you can do this with any car.
 
kainzero
well, in general, when i learned how to drift, the main problem was mostly power control. learning how to control the power is much harder than learning when to steer, especially on sims.
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That's not true at all... In fact, the number one problem I see in most vids is the lack of countersteer control... You may or may not have learned how to properly countersteer right away. However, most do not, and that is glaringly obvious by the vids that are often posted in this forum... I think most people think they are countersteering properly, yet in their replays the front wheels are darting this way and that...

i also use the DS2. it's not bad. when i used a wheel i couldn't drive straight :)
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That's what happens to most all Dual Shock users when they try to learn the wheel (myself included)...

the advantage of the wheel is that it offers more precise steering and throttle input. yes, the DS2 is analog, but the difference in the 255 possible X inputs is probably less than micrometer, whereas the pedal can go down a foot or too.
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While it does give a better degree of control, the wheel is not the only way to achieve nearly perfect countersteer, throttle, and braking control... With practice the analog sticks can be utilized in a manner that emulates the control of a wheel... Hell, some have even mastered the analog buttons to nearly emulate a wheel (i.e. Sheron)... If you watch any of my vids you will see that it apears I am using a wheel, when in reality, I am using the Dual Shock 2 (both analog sticks)...

but the main factor when learning how to drift is learning how to predict the behavior of the car given the conditions of throttle input and steering input, which is mostly attained through practice. you can do this with any car.
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You're absolutely right...


;)
 
That's not true at all... In fact, the number one problem I see in most vids is the lack of countersteer control... You may or may not have learned how to properly countersteer right away. However, most do not, and that is glaringly obvious by the vids that are often posted in this forum... I think most people think they are countersteering properly, yet in their replays the front wheels are darting this way and that...
Click to expand...
it might look ugly, but they still did it. maybe it's hard to master countersteer. but the most identifiable trouble i had when simply driving grip with sims was utilizing the throttle to maintain the line i wanted. with sims you have to be very careful when timing the power... especially if you use DS2 and normally use max power when accelerating.

as far as the wheels looking funny, i think i can offer an explanation... instead of choosing a steering angle in between 0 and the max angle they alternate between the absolutes of 0 and the max. i'm not sure if it necessarily achieves the same effect... it's kinda like clearing a corner while blipping the throttle instead of making completely half of the max throttle.

but i really wouldn't know if countersteering was the harder element or if throttle was. come to think of it, in the original GT, i would clear corners by sliding around them. i'd brake really hard, lock the rear wheels, and balance the turn through steering... it's not like i did it intentionally or knew anything about racing or drifting, that's just how i played =P
 
So I was at my brother's house today and I tuned down my RX-7 to 318 hp and stuck on sims and tried to do some drifting on his wheel.

I failed horribly. And continued to fail.

I can't get the back end to not keep sliding out. Even if I let go of the throttle completely and countersteered all the way over, the car kept spinning and I'd pull a 180.

Am I entering the drift wrong? I tried turning the wheel and then e-braking, I tried braking and then turning the wheel, and I tried just turning the wheel. In ever situation, the back end starts to slide to the outside, but then keeps sliding. Whether I'm traveling at high speeds or low speeds, it always happens.

Should I try a slower car like the Toyota Sprinter Trueno AE86?

Come to think of it, I should probably have checked my suspension settings. I probably have the rear set for some toe-out. Giving some toe-in in the rear would probably help the oversteer issue.

I can never remember, though...is toe-in negative or positive?
 
Sohcahtoa
So I was at my brother's house today and I tuned down my RX-7 to 318 hp and stuck on sims and tried to do some drifting on his wheel.

I failed horribly. And continued to fail.

I can't get the back end to not keep sliding out. Even if I let go of the throttle completely and countersteered all the way over, the car kept spinning and I'd pull a 180.

Am I entering the drift wrong? I tried turning the wheel and then e-braking, I tried braking and then turning the wheel, and I tried just turning the wheel. In ever situation, the back end starts to slide to the outside, but then keeps sliding. Whether I'm traveling at high speeds or low speeds, it always happens.

Should I try a slower car like the Toyota Sprinter Trueno AE86?

Come to think of it, I should probably have checked my suspension settings. I probably have the rear set for some toe-out. Giving some toe-in in the rear would probably help the oversteer issue.

I can never remember, though...is toe-in negative or positive?
Click to expand...

you've forgotten something "throttle control" :D
 
Sohcautoa
Based on what I've seen, read, and experienced (Well, tried, anyways), I'm going to take a guess on why drifting works. Note that this only really applys to FR, not FF or 4WD.

You're entering a corner. You turn the wheel, and either hit the E-Brake or mash the gas or do something to make the rear wheels break traction. You begin to oversteer. The car may be going in what is still a nearly straight line, but the car is starting to point at the inside of the corner. Under normal conditions, you'd probably keep going in a near straight line while spinning and hit the outside wall. However, you countersteer.

The rear tires still have no traction, but you've got the front tires pointed in the direction of travel. However, the weight of the car is pulling to the outside, so the car is technically spinning out, but the front tires are still gripping. As the back end of the car continues to rotate, the front tires follow the curve of the turn. The weight of the car is shifted in a direction that is perpendicular to the direction of travel. For example, in a 180 degree turn that starts going North and ends going South, then when the car is halfway through the turn, the weight of the car will be shifted to the North.

However, if you don't countersteer enough, then the front tires will begin to slide, and the car will begin to spin out. By then letting go of the gas a bit, the rear tires can regain some traction and control the spin to resume the controlled drift. But if you let the gas off too much, then the rear tires regain all their traction back, and the car will completely straighten out.

On the other hand, if you countersteer too much then the front end will turn towards the outside, and all the tires are likely to regain all their traction very quickly. However, a quick hit on the e-brake can make sure that the rear tires don't regain their traction and can help for sustaining a very long drift.

In either situation, premature termination of a drift is likely to cause you to be heading towards the outside wall at a speed and angle where it is unlikely that you will avoid crashing into the wall because the front wheels will be sliding until the car straightens out. Even if you turn the front wheels into the direction of travel to straighten the car out sooner, a crash is hard to avoid because then the weight of the car will be transferred to the inside of the turn, plus the back end will have the momentum of moving back towards the inside.

Again, I'm pretty much a drifting newbie, and totally suck at it since I use a controller, and I could be totally wrong.

How correct am I in this post?
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1) I believe that a good drift means taking your car to a corner at a certain angle that it can handle, having understeer under the back of ur sims, for a length of time while countersteering, and maintaining control of your car, when you reach out of the turn.
2) Sims are in fact easy to use as long as you know when to brake, and how hard you turn into a corner, and maintaining the drift.
3) In one of your post, you wrote that some ppl move there wheel back and forth sideways, the reason for that is because they are trying to maintain there drift for a period of time or try and not to spin out
4) Do you have ne vids???lol
 
kainzero
it might look ugly, but they still did it.

as far as the wheels looking funny, i think i can offer an explanation... instead of choosing a steering angle in between 0 and the max angle they alternate between the absolutes of 0 and the max. i'm not sure if it necessarily achieves the same effect... it's kinda like clearing a corner while blipping the throttle instead of making completely half of the max throttle.
Click to expand...

It is nothing like blipping the throttle... Eradic countersteering makes for eradic drifts pure and simple... The whole point of drifting is fluidity, angle, and style... Sure you can get around a turn with eradic countersteering, but the drift will look like crap and you will not be able to sustain such a drift as long as someone who has learned to control the countersteering well... Throttle control is very important, but people do not put enough importance in countersteering... The throttle and countersteer are the two defining factors of a drift... The throttle controls the speed and angle while the countersteer controls the line of travel... As I said before, a lot of people think they are doing it right, when in reality they should be puting more effort into learning the most efficient way...

However, I am in no way taking away from the difficulty of learning proper throttle control, I am merely stating that it is equally important as countersteer control and is often neglected...


;)
 
I've managed to control my RX-7 with Normal tires even tuned up to 695 hp. My problem was mainly using the wheel. I suck with the wheel. Or maybe its not the wheel but rather the pedals.

I still have a hard time drifting though. I can't get the car sideways. Or if I do go sideways, it isn't sideways enough or its TOO much and I spin out.

However, sometimes I get it just right. I've pulled off a couple beautiful drifts.

In other news, I managed to sort of drift my real life car (2000 Suzuki Esteem GLX 1.8...an FF!!) last night in a wet parking lot. I was dropping off some mail in their mailbox and on my way out, I went around a corner at 30 mph and pulled the parking brake, making my back end slide around. It was the wierdest feeling. Everything feels so smooth. And the steering wheel felt like it was moving to countersteer on its own.
 

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