How Do You Appeal to an International or Foreign Audience?

[skip0110]

Regardless, I think we both agree on the point - Pontiac's throwing money at a car that just debuted because no-one's buying it. Is Buick doing the same thing with the Lacrosse?

The Lacrosse would be a much better car if the VVT DOHC 3.6 V6 was offered in the base model. Buick makes you step up to the $28K CXS to get the advanced engine, but you can get a similarly advanced V6 in a LX Accord for about $23K, approximately the same price as the base Lacrosse CX.

GM seems set on maintaining the new 3.6 as a "premium" engine, but they should make it (or a smaller displacement version) replace the old 3800 acrooss all model lines. Seems to me this engine, while a good design, may be too costly to manufacture.

As far as the look of the Lacrosse, it is decent in person, not straying too far from the Buick paradigm. But the front overhang should have been shortened in the redesign (seems like insanely small overhangs is the trend these days).

 

[JohnBM01]

So how do you explain the [recent] Mini Cooper's success in the States? It's a fun mini machine. It's fun even standing still. I'd say this micro is doing pretty well. If I'm wrong, you always have the liberty to set me straight. 24/7. All year. Day or night. Set me straight if I'm wrong, because I'm not perfect and don't know everything.

I keep forgetting who wants to European company wants return to America. I believe it was Alfa Romeo. I think Alfa Romeo and Subaru are working together, and the styling shows with that Subaru B9 Tribeca. So if you've seen the B9 Tribeca, you may get an idea as to how Alfa Romeos will look if you start seeing Alfa Romeo dealerships selling the most recent machines. Renault would be interesting in America, since Nissan and Renault are together. The styling is a bit significant with Nissan's Quest van. The most recent Quest's styling kind of reminds me of the more outlandish van, the Renault Avantime. Some of the Gran Turismo gamers in America would be proud to know that they can they can race a mid-engined Clio in GT4, then maybe own one in real life.

Other than that, it can be tough to appeal to the international market or to a foreign audience. You have to really know what you're doing to make it all work out. Well, I like this discussion we're having. Keep it moving.

 

[neanderthal]

the mini cooper has a great heritage, great styling, and fun handling.

it takes character to win over america if youre a small car. ask the chevy aveo.

 

[1X83Z]

The Lacrosse would be a much better car if the VVT DOHC 3.6 V6 was offered in the base model. Buick makes you step up to the $28K CXS to get the advanced engine, but you can get a similarly advanced V6 in a LX Accord for about $23K, approximately the same price as the base Lacrosse CX.

That's also the problem with the Chevrolet Impala SS and it's been the problem with the Buick Regal GS for years. Those engines aren't as advanced as those in the Lacrosse, Accord or Altima, but on paper they're just as good and at a much higher price. GM can't seem to get it done right. Instead of "Remember the Alamo," their battle cry is "205hp 3.8L V6!" and has been for an absurd amount of years.

As far as the look of the Lacrosse, it is decent in person, not straying too far from the Buick paradigm. But the front overhang should have been shortened in the redesign (seems like insanely small overhangs is the trend these days).

I've seen just one Lacrosse in top spec and I like it - on the base models, which are always gray with hubcaps, that overhang can get distracting and ugly.

it takes character to win over america if youre a small car. ask the chevy aveo.

I tried - it mumbles.

Opposite end of the spectrum, ask the original Dodge Neon - then ask the present one. First one had character, current one has none. But it's not always true - Corolla and Civic have no character; they sell because of their other attributes. End of the day, it takes character to break in to the market but much more than that to stick around.

 

[Firebird]

That's also the problem with the Chevrolet Impala SS and it's been the problem with the Buick Regal GS for years. Those engines aren't as advanced as those in the Lacrosse, Accord or Altima, but on paper they're just as good and at a much higher price.

So... what makes the Accord, Altima and LaCrosse's V6s so much more advanced than the 3800?

 

[1X83Z]

So... what makes the Accord, Altima and LaCrosse's V6s so much more advanced than the 3800?

Lacrosse and Altima use dual overhead cam, Accord uses single. All three were developed very recently and put out as much or more horsepower than the supercharged 3800 without forced induction. Yet all are cheaper. Exactly how long has GM used the 3800?

 

[Firebird]

Predictably the only argument that has been presented is that the others have overhead cams. Overhead cams are in fact a couple decades OLDER than pushrod-actuated overhead valves.


The only recently-developed engine out of the Accord/Altima/LaCrosse trio is the LaCrosse's "3.6L VVT", which is brand spankin' new. The Honda J-series engine dates to 1996, and the Nissan VQ dates to 1994. The VQ superceded the naturally-aspirated 3800's power figure in 2000; Honda needed 'til '03.

GM's used the engine since '75, in its 3.8L form. It was based on a 3.7L V6, based off of the Buick 300c.i. V8, itself based on the all-aluminum 215c.i. V8 which was used as early as '61 and sold to British Leyland in 1965, eventually becoming the ubiquitous "Rover V8". Its first front-drive application was in 1986. The current Series II and Series III 3800s are significantly different than any of the 3800s sold prior to '95 (especially those prior to 1990).







The only compelling reason to replace the 3800 is to please consumers who are knowledgeable enough about engines to know there's a difference between SOHC, DOHC and OHV, yet are ignorant enough that they think OHV is "old"

 

[skip0110]

Predictably the only argument that has been presented is that the others have overhead cams. Overhead cams are in fact a couple decades OLDER than pushrod-actuated overhead valves.

What about the iron block? What about the 2 valve heads? Lack of variable valve timing? There is nothing wrong with a pushrod engine but the 3800 is anemic at high revs, does not sound refined, and is not very light.

 

[Firebird]

What about the iron block? What about the 2 valve heads? Lack of variable valve timing?

Now it gets interesting...

Despite the iron block (and cylinder heads!) it's lighter than the Nissan VQ35 and Honda J30.
Despite the 2 valve heads and no variable valve timing it still makes 260hp with a supercharger pushing 7.5PSI.

There is nothing wrong with a pushrod engine but the 3800 is anemic at high revs, does not sound refined, and is not very light.

The Honda J30 is anemic at low revs and sounds like a swarm of bees at high revs. Maybe that's "refined", and I'm just confused as to its meaning.
The VQ35 has lot of power throughout the rev range, but it sounds like someone with gastro-intestinal problems. I'm pretty sure it has more to do with Nissans exhaust piping than the engine itself.

I quite like the deep rumble of the 3800 at idle and ensuing roar at higher revs.


Here's the really good part though: remember how I said "despite the iron block (and cylinder heads!) it's lighter than the Nissan VQ35 and Honda J30"? It's true! The 3800 weighs about 350lbs, while the VQ35 and J30 weigh about 400lbs each.

 

[neanderthal]

dont the VQ and J30 make more than 260 without a supercharger?
and with a lot less displacement? especially in the case of the honda.
and dont they both have a far more useful rev range
and engines that dont sound like industrial machinery? you called it a roar. the rental i drove didnt roar by any measure. more like an extended chewbacca type groan
lower smog/ emissions profiles
and so on and so on.


the only reasons for using that antiquated pushrod lump are
its cheap (main one in my book) stampings and development were paid off a long time ago
it has prodiguous torque
which reaps fuel economy gains (though gearing and other factors come into play. its milage isnt that much better but considering it is larger displacement......)
it still passes smog. but its emissions index is higher than the new engines we're comparing it against. govt standards are kinda lax about that IMO

 

[Sniffs]

*applauds Neanderthal's "cheap" line*
very true. it's also one of the reasons small blocks are still around as well. the OHV type engine, though, is seen as old fashioned. they didn't really take over from sidevalve engines untill the automobile was well established. and they still linger. lawnmower engines were still sidevalve till recently...and everybody knows they now dyno THOSE for micro drag racers.

as for the mini...it isn't MINI!
i'm talking about the likes of things like the fiesta, kei, etc, etc...cars that anyone over 5'6/1.70would have their knee stapping the topof the windsheild frame reaching to both a pillars. cars that run on a 5-600 cc motorcycle engine, the kind that can't get milage or power with american fuels. in otherwords...any thing smaller than a 2 liter/122 cube job. american's barely put up with things smaller than 1.6.

oh, and FYI...they had OHC jobs in the thirties...they were in the high end market jobs. not to mention a FWD...the Cord.

 

[Firebird]

dont the VQ and J30 make more than 260 without a supercharger?

The VQ in the Maxima does (265hp).

The J30 does not.

The 3800 makes 260hp without variable valve timing, variable valve lift, three more camshafts and 12 more valves.

and with a lot less displacement? especially in the case of the honda.
and dont they both have a far more useful rev range

You should refer back to the thread I started about specific output.

and engines that dont sound like industrial machinery? you called it a roar. the rental i drove didnt roar by any measure. more like an extended chewbacca type groan

Better get your hearing checked.

lower smog/ emissions profiles

You sure?



EPA Greenhouse Gas score (out of 10, 10 being best):
J30 hybrid: 8
3800: 6
J30: 6
VQ35: 6
3800 Supercharged: 5
3.6L VVT: 5

EPA Pollution score (out of 10, 10 being best):
3800: 6
J30: 6 (incl. Hybrid)
VQ35 (Maxima): 6
3800 Supercharged: 3
3.6L VVT: 3
VQ35 (Altima): 2

Emission standard:
3800 Series III: SULEV
3800 Series II: ULEV
3.6L VVT: ULEV
J30: ULEV
3800 Series III Supercharged: LEV
3800 Series II Supercharged: LEV
VQ35: LEV

the only reasons for using that antiquated pushrod lump are
its cheap (main one in my book) stampings and development were paid off a long time ago

It's not "cheap" to build any engine. It's "less expensive".

it still passes smog. but its emissions index is higher than the new engines we're comparing it against.

Oops! Somebody needs to do some fact-checking.




Like I said earlier, the only compelling reason to replace the 3800 is to please consumers who are knowledgeable enough about engines to know there's a difference between SOHC, DOHC and OHV, yet are ignorant enough that they think OHV is "old".

When the 3800 is replaced with the newer 3500 and 3900, will you consider them antiquated? I imagine you will, even if the 3500 is 2 years old and the 3900 is new.

 

[neanderthal]

i never realised its smog was that good. my bad.


it is cheap. to make, to continue using it and everything else.
GM needs to cut costs on its cars (which are basically uncompetitive) and cheapens them wherever they can. this is why we cry "cheap interior" at the otherwise excellent corvette, and dis the malibu, from the get go, because of its 200hp V6 engine and frumpy styling, even though it might have a chassis that is worthwhile. the styling isnt that much of a letdown, there is little sexiness in the midsize class, just the engine (and some accroutements) screams cheap/ thrifty/ *****rdly/ economical/ inexpensive/ budget/ cut price/ stingy/ whatever synonym you want.

its cheap. i mean that in more ways that just the "inexpensive" meaning. cheap.

 

[neanderthal]

on a side note, a general observation;
why is the word "n i g g a r d l y" swear filtered? its a perferctly fine synonym for the word cheap.

i hope this is not PC bullshizzle compensating for some peoples lack of vocabulary.

 

[skip0110]

I was doing some research, and since the 3800 was based off a V8, it used to have an uneven firing order. I understand that in '77 the use of split crankpins alleviated this somewhat, but it my understanding that this cannot completely fix the problem. Is this correct? Does the 3800 still have an uneven firing order?

And, Firebird I was quite surprised by those weight figures. I had no idea that the extra weight of the valves, camshafts, and timing chains would completely offset the use of a aluminum block.

 

[Firebird]

I was doing some research, and since the 3800 was based off a V8, it used to have an uneven firing order. I understand that in '77 the use of split crankpins alleviated this somewhat, but it my understanding that this cannot completely fix the problem. Is this correct? Does the 3800 still have an uneven firing order?

The firing order isn't a big deal (it's a fairly unusual 1-6-5-4-3-2). It was the actual construction of the crankshaft with three crankshaft journals which lead to the "odd-firing".

This is how the "odd-fire" 231cu.in. V6 fired its cylinders:

0°: cylinder 1 fires
rotate 90°
90°: cylinder 6 fires
rotate 210°
300°: cylinder 5 fires
rotate 90°
390°: cylinder 4 fires
rotate 120°
510°: cylinder 3 fires
rotate 90°
600°: cylinder 2 fires
rotate 120°
720°: cylinder 1 fires (back to 0°; the process repeats itself after the second rotation)

You'll notice the cylinders fire at unequal intervals. This is what is called "odd-firing". The firing of the cylinders was imposed by the physical constraint of the crankshaft three crankshaft journals, making cylinders 1 and 2, 3 and 4, and 5 and 6 connected at the bottom end.

The 198cu.in. and 225cu.in. predecessors of today's 3800 weren't very popular (it was the day and age when you could get almost any car with a powerful V8 and didn't have to worry about fuel economy). The customers didn't really care if it fired unevenly. Kaiser-Jeep engineers designed a montrous flywheel to balance the vibrations, and that work well enough for a Jeep owner, but it didn't solve the problem.

For '77 GM designed a new crankshaft with six separate crankshaft journals, so that it fired "evenly":

0°: cylinder 1 fires
120°: cylinder 6 fires
240°: cylinder 5 fires
360°: cylinder 4 fires
480°: cylinder 3 fires
600°: cylinder 2 fires
720°: cylinder 1 fires (back to 0°; the process repeats itself after the second rotation)

Each firing comes at every 120° rotation of the crankshaft. The problem was completely eliminated.

In 1990 it was given a counter-rotating balance shaft to elminate even more vibrations (the firing sequence can only quell some of the vibration; V6s inherently create vibrations as they operate due to the bank angle. A bank angle of 60° is the most ideal to elminate vibrations, but the 3800 has a 90° block since it was based off of a V8 (which typically have 90° bank angles)). The 3800 is quite smooth, despite suggestions otherwise.

And, Firebird I was quite surprised by those weight figures. I had no idea that the extra weight of the valves, camshafts, and timing chains would completely offset the use of a aluminum block.

The main reason is that the 3800 was designed using thin-wall casting techniques. The walls (such as the exterior engine block itself, the cylinder walls, etc.) are thinner than a typical engine, in order to reduce weight, while still maintaining strength.

And have you seen a DOHC head? They're huge!

 

[JohnBM01]

Earlier this month, I seen a car outside of my community college. It's called the Hyundai Atos. When I checked the license plate, part of it said "Mexico." I think the car also says "Hyundai Atos by Dodge" or something. So some of the cars I usually don't see sold in America are probably sold in Mexico. I have no problem seeing these here in Houston.

Maybe there are some cars not usually sold in America that are out there. I've seen this Hyundai Atos (it's a Kei car), then a Peugeot 206 once, a Daihatsu not sold in America, a really old Peugeot, a 1990s model Alfa Romeo... I'd say that I've seen a lot here in Houston. We have a TVR place that I believe does repairs for TVRs, but don't get your hopes about owning a TVR here in Houston, much less America. Or, do you want a TVR Speed 12 taking on the muscle cars?

The majority of what I've seen must be imports or little-known cars sold in America. Sometimes, I imagined what would happen if these cars were sold in America, available for you to buy and show your friends/kick ass in club racing/take to the drag strip/use as your "chick magnet"/whatever. If I find more info on the Hyundai Atos, just for you to see, I'll present a website with info on it.

 

[1X83Z]

Is it really called Atos and not Atoz? I guess they really did change the name for the UK. They just don't give a toss.

Check what state those Mexican cars come from - sometimes they come from quite a ways to be in Texas (Most are from the border states though - Chihuahua is supremely common everywhere).

 

[Firebird]

Strangely I've seen TWO Atoses way the hell up here. I didn't catch their exact plates, but both were foreign.

 

[neanderthal]

i know that car as Atoz. literally A to Z. i never knew of an Atos version.

 

[1X83Z]

i know that car as Atoz. literally A to Z. i never knew of an Atos version.

In passing, a story was told to me that Hyundai wanted to name it "Atos" in Europe but the British say "a toss" as in "I don't give a toss," so Hyundai UK had to literally send someone to a factory in Korea and beg them to reconsider the name change, hence Atoz.

Now that I know they actually do call it Atos elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised if most of that story is true.