How does Shift 2 compare with GTR 2?

[machschnel]

Since it's release I have been very tempted to buy Shift 2, but stories of lag or "floaty" physics have put a hold on any purchase. What keeps me interested though is the lack of consistency in any critique of Shift 2. I've heard everything from "best game ever" to "arcade crap".

I think the reason behind this may well be players are comparing it to GT5. What i'd like is if someone could compare it to GTR2, my personal favorite sim.

The reasoning is pretty simple - Shift 2 should have similar DNA to GTR2 (although I'm sure its nowhere near the same game). Another point is that if I had played GT5 before I played GTR2, I think my opinion of it would have been similar to the general Shift 2 hate. PC sims in general seem to have a "different feel" than GT5, which maybe why Shift 2, with it's "PC sim" past, may polarize opinions.

So, anyone out there played GTR2 (or 1) and Shift 2? Care to give a brief comparison? Thanks in advance

 

[brambos]

I think the reason behind this may well be players are comparing it to GT5. What i'd like is if someone could compare it to GTR2, my personal favorite sim.

I have no experience with GTR2, but maybe I can give you some insights until someone else can fill us in on the GTR comparison.

Most of the complainers (with the exception of one or two) have been converted to believers after the last patch (1.02).

However, I can understand how people coming from GT5 get a bit of an initial shock when booting up S2U:

- The game is not as "accessible" or forgiving as GT5. Meaning: hitting curbs can unsettle your car, getting airborne will often make you lose control and using the AI as steering-aids in corners will result in a severe crash. All this is actually pretty realistic, but makes the game a bit more difficult for beginners than GT

- The fast cars are anything but floaty, but have a steeper learning curve than GT's cars. With all the driving aids off, some of the hypercars can actually be scary - whereas the same cars in GT can seem on-rails and noob-friendly.

- Cars bought off the carlot are not set up for racing by default. Tuning is a *must* because suspension is usually at its softest, tire pressure tends to be too high and ride-height is typically at max height. This is the cause for most of the 'floatyness' people complain about. Tune your car, and it's gone.

- If you're a controller user: you *must* reduce the steering lock on every car because by default it's way too high (likely set up for wheel users by default) and makes cars seem very twitchy when driven with a joystick.

The first two hours I played Shift 2 I had mixed feelings, but once I got over the learning curve I'm now firmly in the "BEST GAEM EVAR!!!1" camp

The handling, immersion (proper racing experience!), sound, AI, car list and track selection are all top notch.

I feel Shift 2 is heavily underrated - mostly because many people have not given it a fair chance ("It's NfS so it must be arcade trash, it can't be a sim").

I would highly recommend this game if you enjoy racing rather than driving, but if you're not convince rent it first 👍

 

[RomKnight]

Actually this game lost the NFS name. Other than that Brambos summed it up nicely

 

[GumShoe]

If you're used to GTR2 you'll need to approach Shift 2 with an open mind. The cars in GTR2 are mostly race cars with tight, track setups, where the cars in Shift 2 are mostly road cars with loose road setups.

You'll probably find that Shift 2 is both easier and harder than GTR2 at the same time, easier because the cars don't spin as readily, but harder because the suspension/tyres allow a lot more subtlety around the limit.

In GTR2 (and most other racers) throttle control is a lot of keeping on the limit, and if you can keep the wheels from spinning you can run fast laps on the limit. In Shift 2, throttle control is a lot easier (maybe too much??), but keeping the car balanced and fast is more a matter of being smooth and tuning the cars really produces noticeable changes.

It's certainly a different feeling, and as we know driving model realism is a very subjective thing, but if you approach it openly you'll find a very rewarding model and an extremely fun game.

Respect the AI too, you can't just jump back on your line if you go wide, they'll be there and won't move for you, but move back gradually and they'll adjust. On PC there's no lag either and FFB is great with a G27.

Above all, it's fun

 

[paulpg87]

 

[Patrocles]

Since it's release I have been very tempted to buy Shift 2, but stories of lag or "floaty" physics have put a hold on any purchase. What keeps me interested though is the lack of consistency in any critique of Shift 2. I've heard everything from "best game ever" to "arcade crap".

I think the reason behind this may well be players are comparing it to GT5. What i'd like is if someone could compare it to GTR2, my personal favorite sim.

The reasoning is pretty simple - Shift 2 should have similar DNA to GTR2 (although I'm sure its nowhere near the same game). Another point is that if I had played GT5 before I played GTR2, I think my opinion of it would have been similar to the general Shift 2 hate. PC sims in general seem to have a "different feel" than GT5, which maybe why Shift 2, with it's "PC sim" past, may polarize opinions.

So, anyone out there played GTR2 (or 1) and Shift 2? Care to give a brief comparison? Thanks in advance

I can only speak comparing S2U on PS3 to GTR2. I use a logitech DFP for both games. imho,ymmv of course

GTR2 is much better for physics. S2U does not even come close for car handling and FFB (could be my cheap DFP wheel on the PS3?...however, I use same wheel on GTR2 which allows much more wheel tweaking).


OT...it is strange that you brought this thread up because after getting and playing a bit of S2U I am now seriously thinking of getting a new(er) PC to play more GTR2, LFS, rFactor, and (ITA) iRacing.

 

[OLDSKOOLACURA]

I have no experience with GTR2, but maybe I can give you some insights until someone else can fill us in on the GTR comparison.

Most of the complainers (with the exception of one or two) have been converted to believers after the last patch (1.02).

However, I can understand how people coming from GT5 get a bit of an initial shock when booting up S2U:

- The game is not as "accessible" or forgiving as GT5. Meaning: hitting curbs can unsettle your car, getting airborne will often make you lose control and using the AI as steering-aids in corners will result in a severe crash. All this is actually pretty realistic, but makes the game a bit more difficult for beginners than GT

- The fast cars are anything but floaty, but have a steeper learning curve than GT's cars. With all the driving aids off, some of the hypercars can actually be scary - whereas the same cars in GT can seem on-rails and noob-friendly.

- Cars bought off the carlot are not set up for racing by default. Tuning is a *must* because suspension is usually at its softest, tire pressure tends to be too high and ride-height is typically at max height. This is the cause for most of the 'floatyness' people complain about. Tune your car, and it's gone.

- If you're a controller user: you *must* reduce the steering lock on every car because by default it's way too high (likely set up for wheel users by default) and makes cars seem very twitchy when driven with a joystick.


The first two hours I played Shift 2 I had mixed feelings, but once I got over the learning curve I'm now firmly in the "BEST GAEM EVAR!!!1" camp

The handling, immersion (proper racing experience!), sound, AI, car list and track selection are all top notch.

I feel Shift 2 is heavily underrated - mostly because many people have not given it a fair chance ("It's NfS so it must be arcade trash, it can't be a sim").

I would highly recommend this game if you enjoy racing rather than driving, but if you're not convince rent it first 👍

+1 to what he said

 

[gregp]

Excellent question, and one that doesn't have an easy answer. I too came so S2U from the world of GTR2/rFactor/RACE series/iRacing. The original Shift drove me nuts with the floaty feel and I gave up on it after a few months. For reference, I play on PC with a Fanatec PTSW.

My first few hours in S2U were disastrous. The 'lag' bug (since mostly fixed by the first PC patch) combined with the floaty feel (which consensus seems to blame on soft default tuning) completely ruined the experience for me and I bitterly bashed the game on multiple forums.

But I haven't been able to let go of the game, and this past weekend I think it finally clicked with me. I was FINALLY able to find a graphics setup that looked sharp, so that helped tremendously. Then I used some of the setups from the Renown Tuning thread in this forum, on an Audio RS8, and I was amazed at how different the car behaved -- I could actually control it now. Yes, it still feels slightly floaty, especially compared to sims like GTR2 -- but it's completely tolerable and makes for a bit of a challenge.

S2U is missing lots of 'sim' features like endurance racing, pit stops, fuel usage, etc., but I have to agree with the devs' focus on 'the driver experience' -- it really does grab you and nearly convince you that you're racing a high-powered car.

I would FFB isn't quite as good as other games, but is adequate. So my advice is: give it a try. If you're playing on PC, scour the forums until you find a graphics setup that works for you and minimizes the jaggies; then jump right into tuning, as it really is critical to make the cars enjoyable.

IMO the best-ever driving physics are iRacing's...S2U is no iRacing, and it doesn't feel at all like GTR2, but it's gorgeous, fun, and challenging. And if you read interviews with the devs, they seem fully convinced that the physics model is top-notch, which makes me wonder how hi-fi all these other racing sims we've gotten used to really actually were.

 

[bmwisme]

I currently have GTR2, P&G, Race 07, GTR Evo, Race On, and have had the older PC sims dating back to Gran Prix Legends and Sports Car GT.

Shift 2 Unleashed... different animal. I don't get into the this is better than that - I only play racing games/sims on a computer or the consoles (GT and Forza, etc.). I look at the end result and that is simulated racing enjoyment and they ALL do that - but to a different extent and in a different manner.

I believe S2U brings an immersive quality to the experience - the sounds, visual effects, good AI, and challenges (Old vs New, time attacks, etc.) and AUTOLOG!

Like I have said before, any one sim does not necessarily replace the others. It's a flavor of the day for me. But if you are a true sim racing geek you most likely will love S2U.

Also, for me, I sometimes prefer to drive in front of a huge plasma with 7.1 surround sound other times a 24" computer flat panel with decent stereo speakers will do.

PS3/Computer, DFGT.

 

[Terronium-12]

Underneath it all...Shift, S2 Unleashed is GTR 2.

Shift 3 however won't have any relation to the gMotor2 engine as it'll be using a new one. Unless it's built from the ground up, it'll most likely use whatever engine SimBin uses for GTR 3.

 

[GumShoe]

SMS have built a new physics engine from the ground up for future games, which won't be related to SimBin's at all. Whether that is Shift 3 or their community sim, we don't know. Ian Bell mentioned it on nogrip but I can't find the post.

 

[tribolik]

I think that what is new in future games is the tyre model but I seriously doubt that there will be a Shift 3.

 

[GeekCred]

So, anyone out there played GTR2 (or 1) and Shift 2? Care to give a brief comparison? Thanks in advance

You won't find a more terrifying or viscerally satisfying experience at Spa (in GTR2) than behind a Zonda Cinque in S2U.

"Floaty" isn't an accurate term to describe the physics model of S2U. Handling is different to be sure, but if anything, you feel the suspension and weight transfer more so than the what the tires are doing in contrast to GTR2. It's still very convincing, and damage/crash modelling is like nothing else before it. Finally, the graphics are fantastic, and just make most other PC sims seem dated by comparison.

Overall, GTR2 feels clinical in comparison; not a bad thing at all, but a very different experience, and one you might actually like more.

Note: I'm talking about the PC version of S2U. I tried the 360 version extensively (pre-patch), and couldn't quite get what I wanted out of the FFB and handling.

 

[machschnel]

Overall, GTR2 feels clinical in comparison; not a bad thing at all, but a very different experience, and one you might actually like more.

When you say clinical, what exactly to you mean by it? As I said above, out of every sim I've played, GTR2 physics are my favorite to play with, so if Shift 2 is from the same mould, I'll be happy.

 

[Terronium-12]

When you say clinical, what exactly to you mean by it? As I said above, out of every sim I've played, GTR2 physics are my favorite to play with, so if Shift 2 is from the same mould, I'll be happy.

There's no if, buddy, Shift 2 is from the same mold.

And by clinical... GTR 2 feels (depending on the vehicle and/or mod) very precise and planted. So much so that you really begin to question why so many seem to think that in order for a game to qualify as a sim the vehicles have to be unrealistically difficult to control. GTR 2 still simulates certain things that most simulators don't or can't simulate properly.

 

[machschnel]

There's no if, buddy, Shift 2 is from the same mold.

So am I right in saying the feel of the physics only differs slightly between GTR2 and Shift 2?

 

[alfaV6boy]

What others have said. This is the best 'racing' experience on consoles right now, GT5 FM3 are different beasts and if you liked GTR Race Pro etc this fits nicely into any collection. Loving the sensible posts in this thread. Great game needs commitment and full concentration, i have played it late at night and tired and i swear i'm cursing the game! The i calm down, concentrate and it flows..... now as an experience, thats pretty good feeling to know im have to work it.

 

[GeekCred]

There's no if, buddy, Shift 2 is from the same mold.

And by clinical... GTR 2 feels (depending on the vehicle and/or mod) very precise and planted. So much so that you really begin to question why so many seem to think that in order for a game to qualify as a sim the vehicles have to be unrealistically difficult to control. GTR 2 still simulates certain things that most simulators don't or can't simulate properly.

^ What he said. I'll add that in GTR2, the performance envelope feels like a sharp edge. You can almost feel it, and have an easier time avoiding going over it. As you already know, once you do go over the edge, more often then not, you're pretty much done. In S2U, the edge feels a little more smooth, and you'll find yourself going over the edge more often, but you'll also have a better chance of bringing the car back under control.

Honestly, if you're sure you want exactly the same experience, you should get RFactor instead, with the right mods, it's literally GTR2 2.0. I'd highly recommend you give S2U a try though, as for me it was an eye opener, and I don't think I'll be going back to RFactor anytime soon, if at all. It's that good.

 

[CCX]

I have GTR Evo, which is far more realistic than SHIFT 2, however they are both fun in different ways. I try to enjoy both for different reasons, ignoring the gap in realism.

 

[boxox]

^ What he said. I'll add that in GTR2, the performance envelope feels like a sharp edge. You can almost feel it, and have an easier time avoiding going over it. As you already know, once you do go over the edge, more often then not, you're pretty much done. In S2U, the edge feels a little more smooth, and you'll find yourself going over the edge more often, but you'll also have a better chance of bringing the car back under control.

Interview with Doug Arnao, AutosimSport 2.9:

Jon Denton:
The 'DropoffFunction" setting for the physics of each car is set to +1.0. This implies that the tyre drop-off curve has been flattened in order to make the car more drivable on the limit, to the point that, when overstepping the limit, the tyre maintains a level of grip at, or very near, it's maximum potential grip level. As such, lateral drift is constant, wheelspin has a negligable effect, and braking performance is hardly impaired by tyre lockups.

Naturally, a flatter curve would be expected with grooved or road tyres, but GTR2 is simulating big slick tyres with low profiles; can you explain the reasoning to set the "DropoffFunction" value to it's current level?

Doug Arnao:
From data from the tyre manufacturers. The FIA GT tyres are incredibly forgiving, I was blown away with how flat the plateau was after the peak. This was based on "new info" received after GTR1 was released. I even think the curve in GTR2 is not forgiving enough, but other parameters - like this drop off - go in that direction. The load and speed sensitivities, and so forth, all combine to give a dynamic feeling to the tyres that convey the slicks used in this series pretty convincingly, I believe.


Lest someone chime in with "oh but now Shift 2 is out, of course he would say that" - this dates from october 2006

 

[machschnel]

Interview with Doug Arnao, AutosimSport 2.9:

Jon Denton:
The 'DropoffFunction" setting for the physics of each car is set to +1.0. This implies that the tyre drop-off curve has been flattened in order to make the car more drivable on the limit, to the point that, when overstepping the limit, the tyre maintains a level of grip at, or very near, it's maximum potential grip level. As such, lateral drift is constant, wheelspin has a negligable effect, and braking performance is hardly impaired by tyre lockups.

Naturally, a flatter curve would be expected with grooved or road tyres, but GTR2 is simulating big slick tyres with low profiles; can you explain the reasoning to set the "DropoffFunction" value to it's current level?

Doug Arnao:
From data from the tyre manufacturers. The FIA GT tyres are incredibly forgiving, I was blown away with how flat the plateau was after the peak. This was based on "new info" received after GTR1 was released. I even think the curve in GTR2 is not forgiving enough, but other parameters - like this drop off - go in that direction. The load and speed sensitivities, and so forth, all combine to give a dynamic feeling to the tyres that convey the slicks used in this series pretty convincingly, I believe.


Lest someone chime in with "oh but now Shift 2 is out, of course he would say that" - this dates from october 2006

So the Shift 2 tire model is a more refined version of the GTR2 one?

 

[boxox]

Yes and no. Many of the same tyre parameters exist - but there are several new ones and they're applied very differently.

It might help to visualise it. Here's a basic brush tyre model (not exactly what Shift 2 does but you can get the idea):



So the tyre is treated in a manner similar to a collection of bristles coming out from a torus shaped brush. Some of the new parameters in the tyre model are:

CorneringStiffness=
BrakingStiffness=
SelfAligningStiffness=

which control how much resistance the bristles have to forces in different directions. They're also tied together so that eg. a physical tyre model of a different sidewall height or width will scale to the same parameters differently. So there is very little difference between what the tyre model thinks should happen vs what forces are actually being applied to the tyre in the 3d game world - the bristles are treated as physx bones and interact with the 3d ground/surface/suspension/etc model. So the tyre can change shape in the 3d world, and tyre performance is (more or less) seamlessly generated by the changing shape of the tyre under stress. The tyre data file defines the compound and the 3d model/bone set defines the actual tyre proper.

In the earlier strictly PMF based tyre model (as used in rFactor/GTR2/etc), the assessment is very abstract in comparison, and tries to match tyre performance to empirical curves based on estimated stress. So more like very rapidly switching the physical tyre model around to best fit what the game thinks the current load is vs. totally predefined performance curves, and the tyre file data exclusively sets the tyre up by width and height only. Still capable of being right in a lot of circumstances but as you run out of data and encounter more complicated situations involving lots of multiple forces acting on the tyre (camber thrust has been mentioned as one big weakness) it gets harder to replicate what should actually happen. And getting it tweaked so that acceleration/straight line travel, braking, cornering, are all accurate at the same time is quite difficult.