- 2,348
- murphykieran
How much memory does a brain have?
- Thread starter fideles1986
- 99 comments
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- 2,348
- murphykieran
- 6,331
- Banbury, UK
- Uberbee
- 2,348
- murphykieran
- 2,343
- Atlanta, GA
- WallRunner51
I beat you all:
MINE HAS A DVD-ROM!!!!!!!
Interesting disscoussion guys, (not the My comp has....) Keep it up, i'm getting smarter by the minete
MINE HAS A DVD-ROM!!!!!!!
Interesting disscoussion guys, (not the My comp has....) Keep it up, i'm getting smarter by the minete
- 89,105
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
A colon has millions of cells, but no memory. Living memory is not related to the number of cells nor their connections.
The key is the type of cell/logic.
Really? Then how did the data get there, and how can you read it?
So we've moved on from you saying it's silly to represent human memory in bytes as we don't store information like that (when we actually do), to it being silly to represent computer memory in bytes?
What actually IS your point here?
I did wonder.
It really does come down to, though you (and a few other scientists) don't think so, impulses.
How does the information get into the brain in the first place? It gets there by impulses. The brain has absolutely no contact with the world - it's reliant on information-gathering devices known as "sense organs". We've got somewhere around 23 different types of sense organs (and not just the 5 we're classically supposed to have) which sense what's happening and relay electrical signals, in 1s and 0s (or ons and offs) back to the brain. If a signal pathway is triggered often enough, a new connection will be made to allow the signal to reach its destination more efficiently (read "quicker" or "via less intermediaries") - to the point where the response can be made without the input (like anticipating having a beer when you get home from work - you can taste it, smell it and feel it through memory alone, without actually having to drink the beer). It gets out again in exactly the same way - electrical signals originating inside the brain out to "effector organs" (typically muscles, but not necessarily always). How it stays in there... well, you've got me. If we knew that we'd be a lot closer to understanding the damn thing. But there's only three fundamental ways it can be (regardless of the mechanism) - chemical, electrical or electrochemical (a chemical change in the storage centre representing a memory formation, an electrical impulse propogating the memory, or a combination of the two). All rely on binary, to form/recall or propogate the memory.
The brain is governed by electrical impulses which have no variation other than "on" or "off". Neurons even behave like (very complicated) AND gates. Binary IS the language of the brain, so representing its capacity and capability in computing terms is apt.
- 89,105
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- GTP_Famine
- 2,348
- murphykieran
Interesting question. I have a tendency toward very vivid dreams, but I don't associate sound with my dreams - I associate very vivid color and movement when I think of my dreams or when I wake up in a cold sweat during/after a dream. Sound is something I think I add to my dreams when I remember them in the following days.
I wonder how other people associate color, sound, smell, etc. with their dreams. Smell is another thing I don't associate with even my most vivid dreams.
That's it. I'm gonna roll another one, smoke it and think about this topic some more...
KM.
- 5,178
- Worcester, MA
- skip0110
So how many bytes are in an AND gate?
You don't seem to understand the difference between memory and logic.
A computer is a big state machine--there is a fixed, maximum cap on the number of states--so we count up the number of possible states, and call it memory (we use a log scale--converting it to bytes--to make the numbers manageable).
A brain does not have a fixed number of states it can be in.
- 89,105
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- GTP_Famine
My analogy to an AND gate refers only to the "all-or-nothing" reflex of neurons. They require the sum of inputs to them to be above a threshold in order to send an output, otherwise they don't. Input 1 = 1 AND Input 2 = 1 so output = 1.
Tell me - what are the precise components of a silicon chip, as found in a RAM module? How does RAM work?
One post ago all you knew was that brains have memories because... [Step 2] ...connections between neurons, and now you're making definitive statements about neurophysiology?
Your statement above implies that computer memory is physically limited by space, but biological memory is not. Does it follow that you believe biological brains - all biological brains - have an infinite capacity?
skip0110
Tell me - what are the precise components of a silicon chip, as found in a RAM module? How does RAM work?
skip0110
One post ago all you knew was that brains have memories because... [Step 2] ...connections between neurons, and now you're making definitive statements about neurophysiology?
Your statement above implies that computer memory is physically limited by space, but biological memory is not. Does it follow that you believe biological brains - all biological brains - have an infinite capacity?
- 5,178
- Worcester, MA
- skip0110
Six CMOS transistors wired as cross coupled inverters store a single bit (I had to dig out my notes). No logic gates involved...it as a positive feedback system to maintain charge on the transistors.
Logic is used in a MUX to ensure the correct bit comes out when an address goes in, but that is not on the silicon chip that sits on the RAM module.
Nope, but a variable capacity.
- 89,105
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CMOS is logic. It's even called "CMOS logic". CMOS transistors are coupled to make logic gates. It's not quite the same as traditional TTL, but it does exactly the same thing (but a mite more efficiently).
So... how is information stored in RAM? It goes in, via impulses through logic processes, and is propogated in a feedback loop, via impulses through logic processes. Remove the impulses in the feedback loop and the information is lost.
Exactly like the posited mechanism for brain memory storage?
So, in reference to your first post:
skip0110
You've just explained it to yourself. Now spread the word to those "few other scientists".
- 5,178
- Worcester, MA
- skip0110
CMOS gates can be used to make logic, and they can be used to make memory. Legos can be used to make the Taj Mahal, and they can be used to make a C-130 cargo plane. Is a C-130 cargo plane the Taj Mahal?
CMOS is logic. It's even called "CMOS logic". CMOS transistors are coupled to make logic gates. It's not quite the same as traditional TTL, but it does exactly the same thing (but a mite more efficiently).
So... how is information stored in RAM? It goes in, via impulses through logic processes, and is propogated in a feedback loop, via impulses through logic processes. Remove the impulses in the feedback loop and the information is lost.
PS: The impulses are related to the clock. There are no impulses in the feedback loop.
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- GTP_Famine
- 5,178
- Worcester, MA
- skip0110
If it is, then you should be able to make some sort of boolean gate out of a memory cell.
You have input, input enable, and output. Go ahead.
Also, you've completely sidestepped the fact that memory is just a count of the states in the computer (state machine). Let me know how you would go about counting the states in the brain. Also please let me know the inital state and the final state. And prove that it terminates.
- 39,083
- Application hell
- MP-Omnis
How can you say that? When you have a killer huge turd passing through, does the colon just expand more and more with the buildup of crap? No, it has a size limit, which is why it forces out excrement, and even then, when you take your epic Count Dooku, does your butt remain at turd-diameter for the remainder of your life? No. You just got Lex Luthor'd.
(Kidding. Carry on with the argument, guys. It's very interesting!)
- 1,795
I don't think the relationship between turds and colons, and cells and memory is quite the same...
- 39,083
- Application hell
- MP-Omnis
I don't think the relationship between turds and colons, and cells and memory is quite the same...
You mean the difference between structural and logical memory.
- 347
Oh. My. God.
I think I've found something that I know and Famine doesn't.
Research suggests that "Deja vu" works like this (apologies in advance for my highly un-scientific explanation):
When the brain observes something, it activates a part of the brain to tell it whether it has experienced that scenario/object/etc. before. If the response is positive, and the brain thinks it has experienced it before, then it proceeds to the next phase, which is to try to remember when/where/how/etc. it experienced it before. Usually, if the response to the first phase is negative, the brain will then just dismiss the object/scenario as one that it hasn't experienced before and skip the second phase.
Deja vu occurs when the brain accidentally goes straight to the second phase, and so it thinks it must have experienced something identicle before, thus you appear to "remember" it.
- 89,105
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- GTP_Famine
You've got it the wrong way round - a memory cell is made out of some sort(s) of logic gate, by definition.
Have a look at Wikipedia - you can see a NAND gate made from four CMOS transistors.
skip0110
The problem with "counting states" in the brain is that no-one's entirely sure how the brain stores information at all. But the only way that doesn't need a binary signal is chemical - and that requires a binary input and a binary output for recall.
So, if you could identify what it is you need to count the states of, then you most certainly could do it. I addressed all of this earlier.
Speaking of sidestepping, you've ignored the question I posed about what it is that feeds back in a feedback loop if there's no electrical impulses.
- 30,061
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
That's not memory, it's action and reaction, it's like a rubber band, when if you stretch one and you let it go it, returns back to it's original size. Action and reaction isn't memory. Air is constantly moving, it doesn't have memory, when water get's evaporated and forms a cloud, the cloud rises, when it cools down again and rains that's not memory causing that. When I take a dump, it's my brain controlling my inner-arse not my colon and anus controling it'self.
