How much setup copying is allowed?

[Greycap]

I'm trying to keep this civil. If, however, I step on someone's toes in the process I hope that person steps forward and tells me why they feel offended. No names called because it helps nobody and setup sheet typing errors corrected to make tracing more difficult.

The point is, I've been following other garages during the time I've been in the business and every now and then there are setups for certain cars that seem very familiar. Further examination has revealed those setups to be very close to the ones we (me and Leonidae aka MFT) have made. This has spurred a thought, are our setups being used as a basis to do some fine tuning on and then releasing a new car, claimed as being tuned to the absolute limits with us doing the hard job and someone else collecting the credit?

Examples.

Pair I:

Suspension
Spring Rate: 7.0 / 7.5
Ride Height: 95 / 105
Bound: 3 / 8
Rebound: 6 / 6
Camber: 2.0 / 1.5
Toe: -1 / 0
Stabilizers: 2 / 6

Suspension:
Spring rate: 7.0 / 7.5
Ride Height: 95 / 105
Bound: 5 / 6
Rebound: 6 / 6
Camber: 1.5 / 2.0
Toe: -1 / 0
Stabilizers: 2 / 4

Pair II:

Suspension
Spring Rate: 10.0 / 6.0
Ride Height: 106 / 106
Bound: 6 / 8
Rebound: 6 / 6
Camber: 3.0 / 1.5
Toe: 2 / 0
Stabilizers: 5 / 2

Brake Controller
Brakes: 2 / 1

Suspension:
Spring rate: 9.5 / 6.0
Ride Height: 105 / 105
Bound: 5 / 4
Rebound: 6 / 6
Camber: 3.0 / 1.5
Toe: -2 / 1
Stabilizers: 5 / 3

Brake Balance Controller:
Brakes: 3 / 2

Pair III:

Suspension
Spring Rate: 12.0 / 12.5
Ride Height: 125 / 140
Bound: 6 / 8
Rebound: 6 / 8
Camber: 2.0 / 2.0
Toe: -1 / -2
Stabilizers: 5 / 6

Brake Controller
Brakes: 6 / 11

LSD
Initial: 10
Acceleration: 25
Deceleration: 10

Suspension:
Spring rate: 11.0 / 12.0
Ride Height: 105 / 105
Bound: 5 / 6
Rebound: 6 / 6
Camber: 1.5 / 1.5
Toe: -1 / -2
Stabilizers: 5 / 6

Brake Balance Controller:
Brakes: 6 / 9

Limited Slip Differential:
Initial: 10
Acceleration: 30
Deceleration: 10

I may be a stuck up jerk in doing this but I'd like to know if it's OK to claim marginal changes on someone else's work as a brand new setup because I'll surely be paying back when it's least expected.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I may be a stuck up jerk in doing this

Uhh, no, you're not.

but I'd like to know if it's OK to claim marginal changes on someone else's work as a brand new setup

It's not. At least not in my book.

Edit: Oh yay, I can tell who it is now too...

 

[shoman]

Whoever it is..... I'm not sure Graycap or care! But it looks to me that there using your set-up as there base, making it there own. It also looks trying to take credit for them also, there not doing big changes either! But I would nip it in the bud real quick... I don't mind people taking 1 or 2 things, and gaining on it, but they should not take the whole set-up, and put in there garage either!

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Whoever it is..... I'm not sure Graycap or care! But it looks to me that there using your set-up as there base, making it there own. It also looks trying to take credit for them also, there not doing big changes either! But I would nip it in the bud real quick... I don't mind people taking 1 or 2 things, and gaining on it, but they should not take the whole set-up, and put in there garage either!

My thoughts almost exactly.

I've borrowed setups from people but by the time I'm done making it work how I want it to, it looks more than a bit different.


Although... As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Jetboy.]

My thoughts almost exactly.

I've borrowed setups from people but by the time I'm done making it work how I want it to, it looks more than a bit different.


Although... As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

This, however, is blatant disregard. There's no permission asked, and while it should be a small pride boost that MFT is being copied so well (And only them??), this is still underhanded.

As far as taking and tweaking, I may do that but I don't "re-release" my revision. That's crap. 👎 I certainly disappointed in this, and I'm not even the subject garage.



Regards,
Jetboy

 

[mafia_boy]

Yeah, I'm right against it myself. I couldn't bear to see my (or anyone else's from the Big 5) work being copied by someone and then have them claim it's their own setup and find it wrong that this person is doing so.

You have full right to be pissed Greycap and honestly, you're taking a much calmer line than I would....personally, I'd probably break AUP in my response if it ever did happen to me.

 

[Irons]

It does look like they're making marginal changes. But I think it's because people either don't really know how to tune and just make slight changes to a car they know that works or they actually know how to tune, tuned a car to fit their driving style, saw it mirrored yours and changed it to prevent such copying. It's true that there are lots of possible setups for cars but only a few actually work well. You guys at MFT have knacks at finding those good setups but I'm afraid two setups are bound to be similar. However, I frown upon blatant copying setups.

I have empathy for you guys because of your great setups. And it seems as though other people like your setups also. If I myself were to start tuning, I would take notes from your setups. Not to the point where they look similar but in the sense of: "Okay so they did this for this car but I don't think it works but they tried this on another car and it worked well. I would use cars of essentially the same class to try and find different setups that work but compare it to yours to gauge effectiveness.

 

[shoman]

Yeah, I've taken 1 or 2 things from them. I try to be different from everybody, sometimes you hit on something that looks almost like the other garage's stuff.... I'm sure most of use the garage's take a lot of time setting there tunes up! I know I do, days and weeks even, I know I'm not the one under the micoscope... It's just sad people have to use other people's hardwork, and not change that much.

I'd ask them to change them for sure! It's has to be a smaller shop doing this.... atleast throw us a bone!

My thoughts almost exactly.

I've borrowed setups from people but by the time I'm done making it work how I want it to, it looks more than a bit different.


Although... As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

This, however, is blatant disregard. There's no permission asked, and while it should be a small pride boost that MFT is being copied so well (And only them??), this is still underhanded.

As far as taking and tweaking, I may do that but I don't "re-release" my revision. That's crap. 👎 I certainly disappointed in this, and I'm not even the subject garage.

Regards,
Jetboy

This is indeed blatant disregard. Although, you shouldn't say "only them"; it seems to be only one member of a garage doing such.

 

[Greycap]

Edit: Oh yay, I can tell who it is now too...

I'm not saying it's "who it is", or "who they are". You may well be right or you may be completely in the dark. Just don't voice your guess publicly... oh, and Jetboy. saying "only them" probably means only us being copied. Which I have no idea about, I'm not interested in if others are too.

You have full right to be pissed Greycap and honestly, you're taking a much calmer line than I would....personally, I'd probably break AUP in my response if it ever did happen to me.

I'm taking a calm line just because I don't want to be the guy who get a truckload of crap for this.

I'm afraid two setups are bound to be similar.

In some cases, yes. In the case of pair II there had never been a setup for that car made like that before ours was released and there hasn't been one ever since. It was a totally out-of-the box setup, even another release by us with a similar base car is nothing like it. And there are literally dozens of setups floating for it at GTP. That's what made me suspicious in the first place.

All I ask is the same as I said to RJ there, if you have guesses, keep them out of public. This isn't as much a crusade against the one(s) behind the problem as it is a crusade against the problem itself. Want to take pointers from our cars? Feel free to. Want to copy half the suspension and fine tune the rest? Don't.

 

[Jetboy.]

I'm not saying it's "who it is", or "who they are". You may well be right or you may be completely in the dark. Just don't voice your guess publicly... oh, and Jetboy. saying "only them" probably means only us being copied. Which I have no idea about, I'm not interested in if others are too.

You interpreted "them" correectly. And personally, I am curious if this means there may be a whole garage made of tweaked, "borrowed" set-ups, not only your's, but Maf's, RVV's, SPM's, Ducks.. I'd say mine but it's too far under the radar. And that's rediculous, not to mention completely foul. 👎




Regards,
Jetboy

 

[Austin343]

Out of curiosity, is it a single garage that copied all three setups? And is each of them made for the same car for which you at MFT created your setup (that is, if yours was made for an M5, was the copied setup used on an M5 or on an M3, etc.)?

 

[Leonidae]

who on earth would want to copy Duck's AIDS-infected setups?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Out of curiosity, is it a single garage that copied all three setups? And is each of them made for the same car for which you at MFT created your setup (that is, if yours was made for an M5, was the copied setup used on an M5 or on an M3, etc.)?

Yes and yes, respectively.

 

[Austin343]

In that case, it's plainly obvious that the setups were copied. I don't know who it is (although there are some people that I suspect), but I think Irons is right in saying that whoever it is doesn't know how to tune well and so looks to the well-known setup artists for "inspiration." At least the copied setups aren't identical.

 

[Greycap]

And is each of them made for the same car for which you at MFT created your setup (that is, if yours was made for an M5, was the copied setup used on an M5 or on an M3, etc.)?

Every time the very same model, down to the trim level and in some cases even the colour of the car. Not that there are any copyrights for a certain combination though, or for anything we write onto the forum, but (as in one case) the same car, in the same colour, using the same tyres and running the very same power through a very similar setup gives the impression of something perhaps being borrowed.

 

[Rykon Zero]

Yeah, it looks like a copy job.

Although I'd do something similar.

But, I'd approach it from a different perspective. I like testing other people's tunes to see how they work, but I use only a few bits of it, perhaps things like the differential. In fact, that's the only piece of knowledge I take from other people's tunes.

By the way, if I were anywhere near as good as you for tuning, I'd demand the person own up to it, then encourage them to do more testing rather than a simple copy and tweak.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

When I first saw this thread, I thought maybe one of the newer tuners might have posted it. Since Greycap is the OP, it's certainly been posted with alot of thought.

Personally, I'm not really in touch with the various tuning shops (especially the newer ones), so I could only vote "could be coincidence, could be stealing" or whatever the 2nd choice is. It'll be uh...interesting to see where this thread goes.

EDIT: just saw all those tunes were from the same garage. Yea, I'd say that's a 99.9% chance of stealing.

 

[shoman]

When I see the M5, I crapped my pants for a minute.... There close, but not the same! thank goodness.... Well I hope the person owns up to the whole thing, it would be better on them! this is the last time I'm going to post in this! I'll be looking to see how this is going, I hope this turns out better for the person, that did it. Now I have a race to run fella's have a good one! Be sure to tip your waiter, he will be here all week!

 

[mafia_boy]

I'm taking a calm line just because I don't want to be the guy who get a truckload of crap for this.

Mate, all of us in the Tuning Alliance would be right behind you and you know that, you wouldn't even see a poo pebble.

who on earth would want to copy Duck's AIDS-infected setups?

That's cold Leo.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

who on earth would want to copy Duck's AIDS-infected setups?

I don't get it. :shrugs:

 

[Irons]

I don't get it. :shrugs:

AIDS, as in driving AIDS. It's a bit of a pun.

 

[Jetboy.]

Mate, all of us in the Tuning Alliance would be right behind you and you know that, you wouldn't even see a poo pebble.


That's cold Leo.

I don't get it. :shrugs:

He uses driving Aids in his tunes, PJ.

Edit: Tree'd by Irons. D'oh.


Cheers
Jetboy

 

[mazdaman]

Well my opinion M.F.T are excellent tuners but to copy them is bad cause it took time to do it.

 

[PF]

Blatant plagiarism.

I think this should be reported because it detracts from the integrity of gtp as a whole, with its emphasis on fairness, honesty and respect for others. I can see that one 'guest' is reading this now, and dread to think how many more people will see this squalid example of intellectual theft.

 

[mazdaman]

Blatant plagiarism.

I think this should be reported because it detracts from the integrity of gtp as a whole, with its emphasis on fairness, honesty and respect for others. I can see that one 'guest' is reading this now, and dread to think how many more people will see this squalid example of intellectual theft.

That's to extreme i think greycap should pm the person with a nice tone explaining the situation.Also tell them this is'nt accepted on this website.See what the user say and make sure he or she takes it off of their thread and just leave it as that.But if they don't do niether asked for then you report.

 

[Jetboy.]

That's to extreme i think greycap should pm the person with a nice tone explaining the situation.Also tell them this is'nt accepted on this website.See what the user say and make sure he or she takes it off of their thread and just leave it as that.But if they don't do niether asked for then you report.

The big issue with this, however is as soon as the suspected party is questioned, any denial will close the subject right there, suspicians asside. A thin cover of "I guess you just found three similar tunes" would pretty much quell any hopes of this getting solved, at least legally speaking. I personally expect that either the suspect(s) will either avoid this thread at all costs or, alternately, feel that t(he)y are being personally attacked and shout out against slander.



Regards,
Jetboy

 

[sukerkin]

I've seen work of mine passed off as someone else's without any changes whatsoever. It's inevitable when you post things freely on the Net. The best we can hope for is someones honesty in saying where they got either the figures or the inspiration from.

 

[Prince.M5]

I wouldn't say that they're copying. But at the same time, I'd say they're copying. Probably.

But the thing is though, if you want to have a perfect setup, sometimes it will fall to the closest too. But I'm sick if someone use your car as a base setup and try to fine tuning it even more, that's bloody pathetic!! I wouldn't do that to be honest because, that will never sound fair to the original tuner.

Since ///AMN Performance™ is very new, but we will never do that. Seriously. We are a completely new garage that will start from scratch and we will play fair to the others.

 

[DK]

I use some aids in some set-ups. But only because I'm fed up of the Goddamn wheelspin.