How to wean yourself off using the driving line?

  • Thread starter Munckeyz
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@photonrider

Let them find out about the "invisible" visible driving line by themselves... It is what make the discovery that much rewarding...


Many must have 'discovered' it - and kept it 'secret', eh? What a great advantage . . . :lol:


Do permit me, however, the luxury of helping people improve their performance, and on occasion to stop to smell the roses and perceive that a fragrance exists. Yes? :)

The 'rabbitline' has also been discussed and analysed at length at the AI Hub, and how players can best benefit from it. 👍


Driving is about staying flexible and finding consistency on your own, not about what a line is telling to do ...

Very true. The line is there to tell you what possibly can be done safely and quickly. Even IRL.
In GT6 if we are pack racing one has to leave the line to overtake, fallback, or manuever through traffic.

Putting the driving line on to analyse and learn what the game recommends can also be useful.
But actual racing with it on is like having one's crew-chief yelling in your ear every ten feet; it can be distracting - and you want every neuron available correctly engaged to zone into that near-perfect run.
 
I'm very bad at GT so I was very glad to see the addition of the driving line feature. I just worry I've become too dependent on it. How do I go about learning to drive without it? :P
I just kinda turned it off and figured it out when I got the game. it's very distracting anyhow and gives you bad lines sometimes.
 
Many must have 'discovered' it - and kept it 'secret', eh? What a great advantage . . . :lol:


Do permit me, however, the luxury of helping people improve their performance, and on occasion to stop to smell the roses and perceive that a fragrance exists. Yes? :)

The 'rabbitline' has also been discussed and analysed at length at the AI Hub, and how players can best benefit from it. 👍

Pardon me for any misunderstanding... My reply to you was sort of sacarstic...

I do understand where you are coming from: in trying to help others.


I was also trying to help you help them... In my cantiflas sort of ways...

All is well
 
Key to remember, your visual marker might be obscured if you have a car rightin front ir to the side of you and if you do - you will be going faster than normaland bhave to brake earlier. .:/ !
 
gt6 driving lines are too conservative for racing IMO. it makes you brake a tad early and sometimes it shows you a slower line too.

but the bigger issue with myself and alot of others is the red blinking suggestive gears. it made me brake weird and early .
SO, i thought i was a hardcore no aids, no abs, no hud driver on GT, until i figured out you can turn off SUGGESTIVE GEAR. i didnt realize how much i used it until i turned it off. NO MORE RED BLINKING. and it took me a while to adjust to braking on your own. but i always use braking points like a dark patch of concrete, a tree, a rumble strip, but mostly those numbers on the side of the track before the turn (150 100 50) helped ALOT. id suggest turning off the LINE, and suggestive gearing and see how you really drive. took me a while to relearn the tracks haha. but in the end my lap times improved by alot.
 
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gt6 driving lines are too conservative for racing IMO. it makes you brake a tad early and sometimes it shows you a slower line too.

but the bigger issue with myself and alot of others is the red blinking suggestive gears. it made me brake weird and early .
SO, i thought i was a hardcore no aids, no abs, no hud driver on GT, until i figured out you can turn off SUGGESTIVE GEAR. i didnt realize how much i used it until i turned it off. NO MORE RED BLINKING. and it took me a while to adjust to braking on your own. but i always use braking points like a dark patch of concrete, a tree, a rumble strip, but mostly those numbers on the side of the track before the turn (150 100 50) helped ALOT. id suggest turning off the LINE, and suggestive gearing and see how you really drive. took me a while to relearn the tracks haha. but in the end my lap times improved by alot.
also experimenting with entering corners with higher gears works as well, if you can find that sweet spot on a higher gear your exit acceleration will much smoother as well. Those distance signs work well if you know km, I'm still learning metric measurements and they make more sense honestly. The driving line is good for the first 2 days of playing, after that use what you have visually seen for the driving line, and imagine a different one you would use to overtake that line.
 
It's a slow process, building up the suite of skills required. But I agree with others in that the best way (in this case) is to remove the crutches immediately: both the line and suggested gear indicator should be turned off.

Then I'd suggest trying to gold every licence test. They are designed to teach you to read the road and drive accordingly. The only difficulty is the SRF being forced on, which numbs the physics and removes the precision required in a driving line (maybe get hold of an older game to alleviate that). SRF is there for people who can't follow a racing line closely, so once you get going you shouldn't ever need it again (except maybe for those few extra seconds in a seasonal...)

In GT1, there was no racing line, no suggested gear, and the licences were pretty brutal. Despite the semi-sim handling, a lot of people were put off by the requirement to adhere to a proper racing line in order to be fast. Hence the aids today.


What you will learn at first, by doing the licences, is to carefully and iteratively tweak your inputs for a specific situation (say a left-right corner combo), and that skill will be specific to that corner set: i.e. you'll have memorised braking and turning points etc. that only apply to that combo.

The more licences you do, the more combos you'll learn and you will begin to see and feel patterns - as well as learn the underlying vehicle dynamics that governs it all. This is where you will be able to learn a track's driving line by yourself, just by driving it, and predict how the car will behave in a corner, just by looking at it.

You will still be going primarily on memory, not only in terms of what corner is next and what kind it is, but also where exactly to brake and so on (per car). This is somewhat the nature of the beast at first - you cannot remove memory entirely from the equation, but at least the internal "model" you will be developing of the vehicle behaviour in your own mind can be used to get very close to a fast time very quickly.


With even more time and practice, you will develop an implicit feel for corners, and will be able to drive reasonably quickly on tracks you don't know (aside from learning the corner sequence), in cars you don't know, just by looking ahead and using that internal model. Real cars and real tracks aren't the same lap to lap, so being able to "feel" the optimal racing line (which must be some subconscious calculation in actuality) is a very important part of being very fast in real life, even when you know the track well. Shuffle racing in GT5 was good practice for this, because you would hop from car to car and had to "re-learn" the track as a result.

For hotlapping in GT, you "only" really need to get very (very) good at reproducing a memorised sequence of inputs with extreme precision, and to (magically) get errors / corrections down to an absolute minimum (to say nothing of tuning). Which takes the pressure off the unknown, including the errors and reactions to them, and gives that model a rest. That only really applies to the "aliens"; the rest of us still have to react a lot to mistakes and inadequate precision on any given lap. Of course, you still have to learn the car / track combo to get up to that speed in the first place.


Taking it still further is to try driving "blind" on circuits etc. you don't know at all. E.g. "rallying" (esp. without pace notes!), which will help you develop further your skills in reading the road, hone that internal model for more surfaces, cars and so on, as well as come to rely on a more technically conservative approach to corners (obstacles in general) that is actually much faster (statistically, over the whole course) when faced with unknown and unsighted bends than "out-in-out".

This, in my opinion, is the ultimate development of driving skill: no reliance on memory (i.e. pre-learning, practice, except the model), driving entirely by "feel", only one attempt to get each corner "right", but still fast. It is also extremely useful even in day-to-day driving. The coursemaker in GT5 is good for this; just turn off the course map.

Above all: have fun! :D:tup:
 
Turn it off and get a feel with out it and see how you go :)

Personally I stopped using it, when I started racing online, as some Hosts dont allow you to use the racing line. Just see how you go, you might surprise yourself. Start off slow, get a free of the car and build the speed up on each lap =) good luck. 👍
 
Here's my suggestion. Take a favorite non race car--like a Miata, RX-7 or M3--and use test drive or arcade time trial on a track. I think a good one with which to start will be Apricot Hill as it has a pretty clear darker section where most cars drive. Then just spend some time lapping. Note different braking points, especially after the straight with the tire, and watch for the signs/landmarks as you get to know the track. Also having your ghost on or watching your lap times can help, as it will tell you where you're gaining or losing time/speed.

Edit - As for the blinking gear shift/braking, I also turned it off. I thought I didn't really pay much attention to it, but when I played other racing games I realized I was relying on it.
 
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Try and drive behind a friend who you think is pretty fast on tracks, by observing others, it might help you learn how to approach some corners. Imagining a corner in your head from a top view helps as well, finding the apex seems easier that way and the rest comes along.

I usually brake very lightly if I'm trying a new track, I get off a lot because of that, but each lap I gradually increase the braking until it's enough. Some corners don't need braking as much as we think they do.

Hope all the great advice from others on this thread helps you. :D:tup:
 
If you want to do it step by step then turn driving line off and use gear indicator to give you understanding of when to brake so you are not flying off the track at first. Also good to find brake marker point on tracks so you are not dependant on the indicator in future. It will vary depending on type of car and usually by downforce levels and weight you can figure out roughly if you need to be braking earlier or later. If doing a TT, it is quite easy to find out fastest line and braking points watching replays but it is important to understand why first before using it as a shortcut to be faster.

You should also see what kind of corners you are approaching, this post by @Scaff is good way to break corners up: Link. This should help you get better at visualising the racing line. Keeping minimum speed is quite crucial to be fast and think it is good to try and get the feeling of the limit of adhesion, easier with wheel. Practice is very important so try and do that as much as you can and you may get it perfect or very close to it one day.

Best of luck @Munckeyz 👍, should also watch this video:



I have briefly watched it, seems really good to help people understand better about how to go quick.

I remember eureka moment when I figured out there is such thing as braking points and racing lines. As you get more experienced, should be easier to do the following and be like on instinct instead:
Lewis Hamilton
"You know how in 'The Matrix,' he can see the matrix? When I'm driving, I see the lines."
This is what I go by when trying to find limits of a new track:
Colin McRae
"If in doubt, flat out"
I usually try and brake to what I think is limit or slightly beyond and also push too much in corners to quickly find the limit of car and track. After all it is only a video game. If it is online though, I usually brake slightly below what I think the limit will be and build up from that, similar for real life but maybe a bit less brave.
 
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I'm very bad at GT so I was very glad to see the addition of the driving line feature. I just worry I've become too dependent on it. How do I go about learning to drive without it? :P

Well, one tip I can give you is look for sections of the track where the tarmac/asphalt is darker. In reality, that is caused by rubber sticking onto the surface because drivers drive onto those parts of the track over and over again. That, my friend, is the real racing line that you are looking for, and is the most optimal way to drive around a given race track. Try to drive on those sections of the track as fast as you can. If you went too fast on your last run, go slower on the next by braking some more or letting off the gas. If you went too slow, then floor the throttle or manage it when going through that section again. It's just trial and error, that's all. :cheers:
 
Also, if it's real world tracks you're having issues with think outside the box that is the Playstation....

Watch onboard videos or racing on thse tracks.

way before Bathurst came to the Playstation, i knew exactly where to drive.
i'd watched about 20 years of 1000km endurance races on TV, listened to the drivers explain where and why they take particular lines.

For most classes of Racing based on production cars (so relatively low downforce/ grip) the turn in and braking points are much the same as the hotted up street cars we're using on GT6

Try this for example.
Listen to when you hear him get off the throttle and quickly pause it.
that will give you the approximate braking marker,
Watch when he starts to turn and pause it again, look for the turn in markers either on track, or fences

GT3 Ferrari, Bathurst

but there's plenty of videos around for Nurbrgring, the GP circuits, etc

 
It's possibly beyond the scope of this thread, but there's been little discussion of line variation, to alter your speed through different sections of the circuit.

Needless to say, it can be useful when defending or assailing a position. Obviously, the built in racing line is useless for this (except as a datum), and I'd argue that until you can navigate corners without it, you'll have little understanding of the possible variations and when or how to use them.


The general idea is to take a small sacrifice in one place that will pay itself back somewhere else, crucially: relative to another car / driver. It is often said that there is only one fastest racing line (and you should use it as much as possible), but that's taken over the whole lap. If you need to get ahead of someone, you only need to be faster than them in a key, strategic location (or two), and hope you can (/ plan to) stay ahead in the part where you'll inevitably be slower again.

A classic is to take a slower line into a hairpin so that you can "straight-line" the exit and effectively slingshot the other car, or at least get a run on it towards the next braking zone (especially if they were defensive in that same hairpin). But there are many, many ways to gain a temporary advantage that can be used to gain a place, or keep one.


This all comes from an understanding of how the racing line works, in terms of the speed and dynamic ability (e.g. can I go full throttle here?) of the car at different points on the track, and also that internal model of the vehicle dynamics I was talking about before. :)
 
Another tip that is simple, yet effective, If the track is a real existing track with onboard videos, Make the video loud, with engine and tire noise. Set it next to the screen which you are racing on, go onto cockpit mode. Then play the video when you start your lap. If you can match the pace and the corners, then you're doing good. I did that with Nurb for gt500 cars
 
I turned off the driving line some months ago. Thanks this thread i recently turned off the blinking gear indicator. Wow.. so much more freedom and fun!!

Also.. first time in top 1000 for a seasonal time trial (megane at bathurst). Probably because everybody is on holiday.. but still happy about it :)
 
Just for fun - have a try with most of the displays turned off... once you know the car you should know the rev note to change up. No clocks, no speedo, no tacho, no turbo pressure dial, no tyre wear candles, no fuel gauge, no track map, blank screen full of track and no trophy target time display, no driver lists, no clutter.

With a clean screen it is just you and the track - less distractions.


(You can always watch the replay later with the clock and stuff on.)
 
Ryk
Just for fun - have a try with most of the displays turned off... once you know the car you should know the rev note to change up. No clocks, no speedo, no tacho, no turbo pressure dial, no tyre wear candles, no fuel gauge, no track map, blank screen full of track and no trophy target time display, no driver lists, no clutter.

With a clean screen it is just you and the track - less distractions.


(You can always watch the replay later with the clock and stuff on.)
It's nice for cruising but for endurance racing you need info. 👍
 
Great advice in this thread already. The only thing that I can add is look up, look up, look up. Keep telling yourself to look up, look up, look up. Look as far ahead of you as you can. In every corner, find the braking point, the turn in point, then look as far around the corner as you can.

In one of the driving books that I read (cannot remember which one) it said that when racing drivers feel fatigued, their vision shortens to around 12 feet. When a professional driver makes a big, explainable mistake, that book indicated that the majority of the time it is due to fatigue; and not looking far enough around the corner.

Using the driving line in GT6 puts your eyes right in front of the car and does not provide enough time to react to the road and get the most out of the car.

So tell yourself to look up, look up, look up. I tell it to my students when I am doing on track instruction and I tell it to myself every time that I start to make mistakes in the race car.
 
Great advice in this thread already. The only thing that I can add is look up, look up, look up. Keep telling yourself to look up, look up, look up. Look as far ahead of you as you can. In every corner, find the braking point, the turn in point, then look as far around the corner as you can.

In one of the driving books that I read (cannot remember which one) it said that when racing drivers feel fatigued, their vision shortens to around 12 feet. When a professional driver makes a big, explainable mistake, that book indicated that the majority of the time it is due to fatigue; and not looking far enough around the corner.

Using the driving line in GT6 puts your eyes right in front of the car and does not provide enough time to react to the road and get the most out of the car.

So tell yourself to look up, look up, look up. I tell it to my students when I am doing on track instruction and I tell it to myself every time that I start to make mistakes in the race car.
Excellent tip! 👍

Relatedly, I find myself focusing on the road surface when out on my bike, and fluffing my lines as a result; you really do need to keep your head up in that instance, because you go where you look! It's weird, though, because I can parse the course ahead and remember what bits are about to hit my front and rear wheels, separately, when on the mountain bike, but on the road I find it much harder to (remember to?) do this (extra fear?). I do find that catching myself in the act and telling myself to look ahead does the trick; for about 5 minutes, anyway. :P


I also notice when I'm tired playing games (the only time I do play them, when winding down) that my lines are all over the place; in response, I tend to try to concentrate really hard (more fatigue) on e.g. spying my braking points, but stupidly I don't think I tried looking further ahead. (Maybe there is an FoV, screen distance etc. issue here, too, naturally drawing my eye to what is more detailed: that which is closer.)

I'll try to remember to pay attention to where I'm looking, because I think this is responsible for some of the speed I've lost in recent years (thanks for the insight!). It doesn't help that I drift off into a daydream all too easily these days... :lol:
 
The driving line should never exist in racing games. Thats like playing a football videogame and the game tells you when to pass the ball and where, and when to shoot. And all this in a generic way.

Turn the racing line off ASAP for your own good if you want to stop being a bad driver.

Also, its one thing to do time trials with the racing line and the other is to do a race with other people. In this case the racing line is just dangerous stuff and should not be allowed. You have to permanelty modify your racing line when you are in a race with other cars side by side.
 
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Great advice in this thread already. The only thing that I can add is look up, look up, look up. Keep telling yourself to look up, look up, look up. Look as far ahead of you as you can. In every corner, find the braking point, the turn in point, then look as far around the corner as you can.

In one of the driving books that I read (cannot remember which one) it said that when racing drivers feel fatigued, their vision shortens to around 12 feet. When a professional driver makes a big, explainable mistake, that book indicated that the majority of the time it is due to fatigue; and not looking far enough around the corner.

Using the driving line in GT6 puts your eyes right in front of the car and does not provide enough time to react to the road and get the most out of the car.

So tell yourself to look up, look up, look up. I tell it to my students when I am doing on track instruction and I tell it to myself every time that I start to make mistakes in the race car.
Ahh yes. I've watched a video explaining it and how great drivers differ from other drivers. Basically it's like they look far ahead into the corner (The apex) and when they've already hit the apex bam their eyes shift onto the next corner's apex/the straightaway. Not only does it do what you said above, but it also widens your field of vision, meaning that you'll feel a bit slower and thus gives you more time to react. That's why you also never look at an opponent's car during a race; not only does it make you feel you're going faster (It narrows your fov), but it also makes you tend to imitate your opponent, meaning that you'll barely have any improvements in your gap, if any.
 
The driving line should never exist in racing games. Thats like playing a football videogame and the game tells you when to pass the ball and where, and when to shoot. And all this in a generic way.

Turn the racing line off ASAP for your own good if you want to stop being a bad driver.

Also, its one thing to do time trials with the racing line and the other is to do a race with other people. In this case the racing line is just dangerous stuff and should not be allowed. You have to permanelty modify your racing line when you are in a race with other cars side by side.

On this week's episode of "NixxxoN demands other people play a game the same way as him"...

To the OP: Keep it on as long as you need to. But to lessen your reliance on it, follow most of the other advice in the thread. For braking points, try to find (non-destructible, nor time-dependant) track-side markers. High up distance signs on the track-side are good, while shadows are bad - at least on the variable time tracks). Look ahead; you'll find you'll actually place the car in the turn more consistently if you're looking at where you want to put it, as opposed to fussing over where it currently is. It also makes for smoother (read: faster) progress. Do a free run with just you and your ghost on the track. Lap as much as you dare, experimenting with the line through each turn. You'll eventually come across one that works best for that particular car/track combo, and get comfortable with where you need to initiate each stage of the process (braking, manipulating weight shift, turning in, applying throttle, etc).

This might seem a little at odds with what I've just said, but don't overthink things. Eventually you'll find yourself getting into a groove, being able to lap a track without really thinking about it. You'll instinctively know the line at this point, just flowing through the track, while you can think about other things (like where your opponents are behind you, where the ideal place is to pass the slow-poke holding you up in front, how many more laps you can go on the tires, etc). This also does wonders for consistency; I've quasi-nodded off doing laps in GT, and it barely affected my times! :lol:
 
On this week's episode of "NixxxoN demands other people play a game the same way as him"...
...
Look ahead; you'll find you'll actually place the car in the turn more consistently if you're looking at where you want to put it, as opposed to fussing over where it currently is. It also makes for smoother (read: faster) progress.
...
This is a great point which I think gets over looked by a lot of newer racers.

Not all of the time, but most of the time, you want to be looking as far down the racetrack as possible.

When you are on a straightaway, be looking to spot the braking point as soon as possible. Once you have spotted the braking point, shift your gaze to start looking for the turn in point, while keeping track of the braking point in your "peripherals" (technically not peripheral, as its mostly still in front of you...but if you are looking at the turn in point, the braking point will be slightly out of focus).

Once you spot the turn in, look for the apex. Once you spot the apex, look for the exit.

A lot of people have the tendency to focus on one point, and not shift their gaze to the next point until the physically drive past the first, which is not good. The sooner you spot a given point on the racetrack, the more time your brain has to compute what it needs to do in order to place the car there.



Something I learned while downhill skiing is to focus on where you actually want to go, as opposed to focusing on objects you are trying to avoid.

For skiing, this basically means focus on the gaps between the trees, not on the trees themselves. If you focus on the trees, you will hit them.

Similarly in a car, focus on the actual path you want the car to take. If you want to take a line very close to a wall or curb, keep your eyes on the actual line you want to take instead of looking directly at the wall/curb you are trying to narrowly avoid.
 
How to stop using the driving line? Turn the driving line off and just drive. Ive never used the driving line in none of the games. You'll get very used to it plus if you need to know when to brake a flashing red plus number will appear.

the driving line is for 2 people blind people and a complete utter noob that can't drive. The more you let go the more you'll get used to It
 
How to stop using the driving line? Turn the driving line off and just drive. Ive never used the driving line in none of the games. You'll get very used to it plus if you need to know when to brake a flashing red plus number will appear.

the driving line is for 2 people blind people and a complete utter noob that can't drive. The more you let go the more you'll get used to It
You must be a friend of @NixxxoN :sly:
 
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