How turning off all aids made me a better, faster driver.

[LS Chiou]

Thanks a lot for the informative reply. Equipment aside, you got sharper ears, too. On the dry, when I hear the sound of locked tires, it's too late (firmly, deadly locked already). In the rain, I hear nothing (or there're too many other noises...).

FB-wise, in the straight, there's no change, still numb and dumb. At turn-in, it might be some twitch of snap oversteer (on dry), or no response to my input at all (on wet). I really can't rely on those to make any correction.

I'll try more to see (hear) if I can catch the very initial sign of lock.

Forgot to mention I'm using an old Logitech GT force pro (with lousy VRs that is). In which, there's also a secondary spring to mimic the 'stepped' resistance. But as I can see, the braking force (in game) is still linear to the stroke, not pressure. So, I think mechanical mod is only for the interface between my left foot and the pedal. Theoretically, it can be completed by software calibration to make the additional firmness to match the actual force (in game). But it's not an option and PD will never do this, I guess.

Or, theoretically (again), it can be done with some cam/gear assembly on the pedal to mimic the real brake - becoming firm and effective within the last portion of stroke. Ah~ not easy for me and this already worn plastic stuff.

I got it, I can swap the OE B-type linear VR to an A-type (logarithmic track) !! I'll check the circuit to see if it can be done...

 

[helseth]

In what way is polyphony 'feeding' this egocentric mentality?

I think its sad this category is so large:

"I can't compete with those guys so they must be all kids with ego issues who are prepared to cheat by using assists..."

The fact that SRF makes a driver 2-3 % faster than without proves my point. If it was the opposite it would not been utilized. Player stick with assists cause they make them faster and to a large amount "being the best no matter what" is the only way they're able to enjoy the game. Online competitions should be about the best driver, not the best glitch abusers.

What is sad about wanting a fair game? A game mode for un-assisted players won't happen since the assisted players would moan their heads off complaining why they can't play all available events the way THEY want...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Would love to have no aids ( no ABS ), no tuning TT for once, say Cizeta V16T at Bathurst on Comfort Medium Tire ( similar to real life ) with rain ( weather 100% and 40% water on track ) like I often did in arcade races - say this "Hardcore" mode that Mr Taku Imasaki said will be in GT6.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

So, how do you sense the threshold of grip and modulate the brake without ABS?

Well in my case I use a Fanatec wheel and club sort pedals which have a load sensor for the brake and an ABS setting on the wheel that triggers a vibration in the pedal when you reach a preset point. You can also adjust the amount of force required on the pedal and in a lot of way it feels like a brake in a real car. You have to press pretty hard to get 75% brake and very hard to get 100% even when set to the lightest settings, I set the vibration to kick in at 70% as an indicator. This worked extremely well in Forza 4. In GT6 I have been mostly working with ABS 1 since the 1.02 update. I was using ABS 0 at times before the update and have a few times since. I haven't used it enough to know how it reacts with different tires and road conditions since the update though, I just know that it feels a bit touchier than before

 

[Dusty1990]

The fact that SRF makes a driver 2-3 % faster than without proves my point. If it was the opposite it would not been utilized. Player stick with assists cause they make them faster and to a large amount "being the best no matter what" is the only way they're able to enjoy the game. Online competitions should be about the best driver, not the best glitch abusers.

What is sad about wanting a fair game? A game mode for un-assisted players won't happen since the assisted players would moan their heads off complaining why they can't play all available events the way THEY want...

Stands to reason an assist will be used IF it helps to make a lap quicker, it keeps everyone on an even playing field (rightly or wrongly), whats wrong about wanting to win? Whats unhealthy about that?

This is wear your argument falls downs, the top drivers ARE at the top of the leaderboards, those guys would be quicker than me and you even if they DID turn off ABS and SRF, if there was a TT with ALL aids turned off you'd still have the same names fighting it out at the top.

Its just a shame polyphony have made such a hash of ABS off, its not quicker (as it should be) and its not true to life!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Stands to reason an assist will be used IF it helps to make a lap quicker, it keeps everyone on an even playing field (rightly or wrongly), whats wrong about wanting to win? Whats unhealthy about that?

This is wear your argument falls downs, the top drivers ARE at the top of the leaderboards, those guys would be quicker than me and you even if they DID turn off ABS and SRF, if there was a TT with ALL aids turned off you'd still have the same names fighting it out at the top.

Its just a shame polyphony have made such a hash of ABS off, its not quicker (as it should be) and its not true to life!

This is very interesting, I am curious who would those names be, the usual aliens always have been using ABS 1 ever since GT5 - maybe one or 2 have done top ten time without ABS, occasionally there will be some Japanese drivers with no ABS on top 5. Now, if there's a special TT added together with usual TT like we always have, but this one is no tuning, no aids, on comfort tire using high performance car on a tricky track, I doubt many will take part, most will choose to spend more time on the TT with aids allowed at the very least No aids driving is not popular -everybody tend to use brake assist, more than likely less than 5% TT participant never uses aids ( maybe less than 10 here in GTP ? ), this might be the reason PD never give such TT, but if Mr Imasaki said about "hardcore" mode is coming true, maybe we will see for the first time special hardcore TT with no aids, realistic tire and maybe even tire wear and dynamic weather during the lap.

 

[Dusty1990]

This is very interesting, I am curious who would those names be, the usual aliens always have been using ABS 1 ever since GT5 - maybe one or 2 have done top ten time without ABS, occasionally there will be some Japanese drivers with no ABS on top 5. Now, if there's a special TT added together with usual TT like we always have, but this one is no tuning, no aids, on comfort tire using high performance car on a tricky track, I doubt many will take part, most will choose to spend more time on the TT with aids allowed at the very least No aids driving is not popular -everybody tend to use brake assist, more than likely less than 5% TT participant never uses aids ( maybe less than 10 here in GTP ? ), this might be the reason PD never give such TT, but if Mr Imasaki said about "hardcore" mode is coming true, maybe we will see for the first time special hardcore TT with no aids, realistic tire and maybe even tire wear and dynamic weather during the lap.

Again, you're drawing the conclusion those assisted top drivers are only there directly BECAUSE they lack the skill to run without them...

I'm sure quite a few wouldn't bother trying to run without abs because its so infuriating, given enough practice and incentive they'd still be there or there abouts.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Again, you're drawing the conclusion those assisted top drivers are only there directly BECAUSE they lack the skill to run without them...

I'm sure quite a few wouldn't bother trying to run without abs because its so infuriating, given enough practice and incentive they'd still be there or there abouts.

No, I didn't say if they are lack in skill, you DID Many aliens have run without ABS in the past TT, and they were on top ten. They are minority not because skill level, but people tend to follow what they feel can make them faster and uses whatever allowed to be competitive.

I merely tried to say what I thought would happen, there are always people who choose their comfort zone or wanted to be more competitive ( AT, SRF, ASM, TC, AS etc ), some who choose to win at any cost ( cheaters on TT ), some who only play TT for fun - get gold and forget about it, some who play TT to challenge themselves even if they are losing/slower in doing so ( no aids ). GT5 TT reflected this, only a few people did them without aids, the majority uses at least one. Tell me honestly, if there are 2 or 3 TT, one or 2 allowed assist, while the other do not, which one will most people participate ?

I am not fast, I am not even alien level, and you can check my past TT and GT academy records on mygranturismo, none of them have assist, does that make me more skilled ? No, it simply means I choose to do so because I want to better, challenging myself ( my kind of enjoyment ), there are plenty faster than me in GT6 TT using SRF, and I don't get bother by it any at all.

 

[Dusty1990]

No, I didn't say if they are lack in skill, you DID Many aliens have run without ABS in the past TT, and they were on top ten. They are minority not because skill level, but people tend to follow what they feel can make them faster and uses whatever allowed to be competitive.

I merely tried to say what I thought would happen, there are always people who choose their comfort zone or wanted to be more competitive ( AT, SRF, ASM, TC, AS etc ), some who choose to win at any cost ( cheaters on TT ), some who only play TT for fun - get gold and forget about it, some who play TT to challenge themselves even if they are losing/slower in doing so ( no aids ). GT5 TT reflected this, only a few people did them without aids, the majority uses at least one. Tell me honestly, if there are 2 or 3 TT, one or 2 allowed assist, while the other do not, which one will most people participate ?

I am not fast, I am not even alien level, and you can check my past TT and GT academy records on mygranturismo, none of them have assist, does that make me more skilled ? No, it simply means I choose to do so because I want to better, challenging myself ( my kind of enjoyment ), there are plenty faster than me in GT6 TT using SRF, and I don't get bother by it any at all.

At the end of the day its a game, a comfort zones is something you can fall into when you're happy, it doesn't mean you can't compete when you're out of it. My point is the cream of the crop will always float to the top no matter what 'assists' they are using, they are not there thanks to the assists they are using, they are there largely because they have the most SKILL alongside having the most time/persistence/tuning skills etc etc

I've got a lot of respect for guys like yourself who choose to only run assist free, I did with Forza, but the difference is I could compete at a decent level, I could jump in a bog standard setup without a tune and within a few corners I could gage where traction and locking points were, I could FEEL the point and HEAR the point, I get no such feedback with GT, its just not be so well implemented.

What we need is that ASSIST OFF TT you talk of, I'd give it a good run, as will many others.

 

[Sarkazmo]

But, the title of your topic says "How turning off all aids made me a better, faster driver.", how is it that you are faster with aids in this case? isn't it a contradiction?

Not in the least bit and neither is the title any less true. Turning off the aids DID make me a better, faster driver. I have absolutely no doubt of that nor do I retract any statement I've made. Turning off the aids forced me to drive more conservatively, use proper driving technique, sharpen my skills, and learn both car and track better. If it is a contradiction then how am I faster in the M3 without aids than with? Driving fast without the aids gives one a solid foundation upon which to build.

My original and consequent posts have been about becoming a better driver and how I improved, not how everything is set in stone and that this is the only way. There have been a lot of good points made about aid usage and I've stated that I was experimenting with TC and ABS settings. Turns out they helped with one car and hindered with another. I, instead of rejecting all arguments to the contrary, embraced the ideas and experimented with them. I could've been all bravado and lies and claimed how I was always faster with all aids off but that's not me. As I've said before, this thread is about inspiring others to try a different approach by turning off the aids. How could I not take the points that others have made into account? I will not be the hypocrite, ever. I haven't used TC since... well I don't know how long exactly but it's been since GT1 at least. I'm pretty good without TC if I do say so myself. I managed a first try win of both Nurburgring and Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps using the Pagani Huayra on rain tires with all aids off. So I do have some skill with throttle and brake control. I hate TC for the most part as I can feel it taking away from the car and it makes using the throttle to unsettle or rotate the car much more difficult. But that mainly applies to rear and all wheel drive cars. What I found was that TC was great for managing the under steer of an FF car though. It also showed me, more than anything though, that I have farther to go to be as competent with FF cars as I am with other layouts.

Sark

 

[Dusty1990]

Have started running the latest TT @ laguna, running completely assist free including driving from the cockpit cam/lines off, didn't find the experience that enjoyable for the first 3 laps but after 8 I finally clocked a time of 1:34'7, with another hour of full concentration I could probably shave another second or so.

Took up this challenge thanks to SARKS' enthusiasm to run without any aids, very sad to see he has started running this TT with ABS 1... asked him about it and he replied, "I got gold without but the BB is really making it very hard to control".... make of that what you will

 

[Sarkazmo]

Took up this challenge thanks to SARKS' enthusiasm to run without any aids, very sad to see he has started running this TT with ABS 1... asked him about it and he replied, "I got gold without but the BB is really making it very hard to control".... make of that what you will

The RA menu doesn't allow you to change the Brake Balance as it used to in TT. The 5/5 balance is unrealistic, does not suit the car, and causes wheel lock quite easily. Still got gold in a car I'd never driven before, without aids, in three laps, further bettering it without aids, then switched to ABS1 to make the car easier to control under braking. Each car is different. My NSX locks the front tires if you even think about the brakes, my M3 race car gives almost full pedal under hard braking before it'll lock. Different cars react differently.

Have you not read my other posts about experimenting with settings? ...about using no aids to develop proper driving technique? Read them before you make a post that implies that I'm not following my own advice. I had not "...started running this TT with ABS 1..." I started it without ABS, golded, golded again, and ended with ABS, big effing deal. I did the M4 without aids at all but no comment about that? If you're going to make statement about what I'm doing then don't give the abridged, Fox News version of events.

Sark

 

[Dusty1990]

The RA menu doesn't allow you to change the Brake Balance as it used to in TT. The 5/5 balance is unrealistic, does not suit the car, and causes wheel lock quite easily. Still got gold in a car I'd never driven before, without aids, in three laps, further bettering it without aids, then switched to ABS1 to make the car easier to control under braking. Each car is different. My NSX locks the front tires if you even think about the brakes, my M3 race car gives almost full pedal under hard braking before it'll lock. Different cars react differently.

Have you not read my other posts about experimenting with settings? ...about using no aids to develop proper driving technique? Read them before you make a post that implies that I'm not following my own advice. I had not "...started running this TT with ABS 1..." I started it without ABS, golded, golded again, and ended with ABS, big effing deal. I did the M4 without aids at all but no comment about that? If you're going to make statement about what I'm doing then don't give the abridged, Fox News version of events.

Sark

I was under the impression you now run completely unassisted, your OP suggested this, "With GT6 it was my goal to drop this final crutch. GT6's brake model seemed so much better to me so I gave ABS0 a dedicated effort and I'm now (and have been since shortly after launch) driving completely aid free.". I can only apologise for interpreting this wrong.

The FT-1 is difficult to control without ABS and assists, I've done a 1:32'428 and could probably shave another .5, you should commit to driving these "Hard to control cars" without assists, sark, I'm sure you'll become a better driver if you do, maybe not 'faster' though

 

[AdonisMentor]

I've taken the plunge into no assists except for abs1 it seems to be the norm as I read over members posts. Its easier when one takes lower powered cars and works up so I started with the Toyota 86 and being its a cold turkey from tc 5 abs 5 and srf on too nothing I'm finding it easier to handle then first thought.
I've figured to practice favorite and hardest tracks first in arcade time trails and then move on from there.
If one thinks they can play with online runners and use assists they can't really gauge just how well their doing. Besides online is assists off in most lobbies and spinning the car out I've found just too embarrassing so good luck to all whom decide to take the challenge on cause we will make better racers out of our self es if we can learn to handle cars with big horses and no assists.

 

[FerrellJ]

The RA menu doesn't allow you to change the Brake Balance as it used to in TT. The 5/5 balance is unrealistic, does not suit the car, and causes wheel lock quite easily.

This is a major annoyance for me. Cars in GT5 were stupid with ABS off at the default bias values but at least you could use the RA menu to quickly change it. 5/5 seems a little more reasonable in GT6 but I still usually find myself changing it.

Not that it would matter much on the FT-1 though- As much as I would have liked to run the seasonal with ABS off, the brakes on that thing are supernatural. Setting them to F:0 / R:10 still causes the front tires to lock up somewhere between 25-50% throw ... Something no other car in my garage does.

 

[Dusty1990]

This is a major annoyance for me. Cars in GT5 were stupid with ABS off at the default bias values but at least you could use the RA menu to quickly change it. 5/5 seems a little more reasonable in GT6 but I still usually find myself changing it.

Not that it would matter much on the FT-1 though- As much as I would have liked to run the seasonal with ABS off, the brakes on that thing are supernatural. Setting them to F:0 / R:10 still causes the front tires to lock up somewhere between 25-50% throw ... Something no other car in my garage does.

Run it without ABS, its not 'that' difficult. You need to be very gentle on the old brake, that way you won't lock the wheels

 

[super_gt]

Driving with aids and ABS-1 for me is boring,that's why I never drive with aids and ABS.

 

[gnorman]

Have only run with ABS as 1 for as long as I can remember as there just isnt the feel in the brake pedal to merit going commando. The change I made after seeing this thread was take off the gear suggestor. Never gave it any thought before but suddenly driving without it made me drive more effectively and cleaner as I had to think ahead more. I couldn't believe that little red number in my peripheral vision had such an influence over my braking point and driving style.

On premium cars i'll drive by cockpit instruments now too for the fun and experience, but on standards I might have to have the instrument display on, otherwise it'll be like driving my mum's Fiat Strada Super85 when I first passed my test. Had no idea whether I was changng up at 4000 or in the red and didnt dare go too hard in case i killed my mums motor.

Interesting that the FT-1 has a little Hud as part of the intrumentation, 5 or 10 years it will be common and we can Gran Turismo infuenced car industry

 

[LS Chiou]

I envy you guys who can live with cockpit view. You must have some very big screens. With 42" and normal distance in ordinary living room, I can barely see the words. They're so damn small since GT5.

The default (full screen) view is small enough, and the view out by cockpit position might only get 1/3-1/2 of total area. I'd need at least double size to see things clear. The interior of some cars are indeed very nice, though. Sigh~

 

[boabmatic]

great read...

I've always used no aids except ABS 1 (sometimes 2) and the suggested gear indicator with a Logitech DFP.

After reading this post I decided to switch off the suggested gear too, I never realized how much I was watching the suggested gear rather than the track especially on long straights or tracks that I don't know too well

not sure if I'm any faster with it off yet but its more fun as I'm not just waiting for a red light to start flashing.

Might give dropping the ABS a go too.

 

[boabmatic]

Playing on a 55inch screen and even at normal viewing distance it can be difficult to see in cockpit view.

Got my kids bean bag seat out tonight and moved closer to the screen ... So much better as it feels as I'm in the front seat of the car now rather than in the back when on the couch.

Can really see the track better now too.

Was having trouble controlling the 15th anniversary 70's ford gt with no aids .. Thing Just spins every corner .. Can't catch them on my DFP wheel.. Been the hardest car I've driven in GT6 so far ... Only completed the first 3 licences so not on super powerful cars yet.

 

[FerrellJ]

You need to be very gentle on the old brake, that way you won't lock the wheels

Pretty sure you missed the point of my post. If the FT-1 were the only car in the game, I'd put the extra spring into my pedal bumper to increase resistance since the brakes on that car only allow for up to 50% pressure- the remainder of the pedal throw is useless.

Unfortunately, it is not the only car in the game and I would have to remove the spring every time I switch to or from the FT-1 in order to brake properly with any other car. Modulating the brake pedal pressure when there is little to no resistance is admittedly difficult when you're trained to press it harder on every other vehicle.

In the end, it doesn't really bother me much because I don't particularly like the car anyhow- I just wish Polyphony would test their cars a little more thoroughly before rushing them out. That brings it back to the initial point of my post as it relates to this topic- the 5/5 default bias (and being unable to change it with the RA menu) is one of those things that makes it seem like PD doesn't account for people driving without assists. I like to drive without assists, on comfort tires, particularly when I am testing out a setup- it makes any deficiencies more apparent and will help give me a better setup whether I chose to run actual races with assists or not. I also often find that being able to lock the tires or spin the wheels beyond what the assists would allow lets me manipulate the car in a way that would be impossible otherwise. I don't do it because I'm looking for an artificial challenge; I do it either because it communicates more information from the car or allows me to go faster.

On the other hand, there are times I do chose to run assists- if I'm just casually running laps around the Ring in a production car that would obviously have ABS, or if I'm racing on a track that has a lot of braking zones in sweepers in a car that has no business trail braking...

 

[Dusty1990]

Pretty sure you missed the point of my post. If the FT-1 were the only car in the game, I'd put the extra spring into my pedal bumper to increase resistance since the brakes on that car only allow for up to 50% pressure- the remainder of the pedal throw is useless.

Unfortunately, it is not the only car in the game and I would have to remove the spring every time I switch to or from the FT-1 in order to brake properly with any other car. Modulating the brake pedal pressure when there is little to no resistance is admittedly difficult when you're trained to press it harder on every other vehicle.

In the end, it doesn't really bother me much because I don't particularly like the car anyhow- I just wish Polyphony would test their cars a little more thoroughly before rushing them out. That brings it back to the initial point of my post as it relates to this topic- the 5/5 default bias (and being unable to change it with the RA menu) is one of those things that makes it seem like PD doesn't account for people driving without assists. I like to drive without assists, on comfort tires, particularly when I am testing out a setup- it makes any deficiencies more apparent and will help give me a better setup whether I chose to run actual races with assists or not. I also often find that being able to lock the tires or spin the wheels beyond what the assists would allow lets me manipulate the car in a way that would be impossible otherwise. I don't do it because I'm looking for an artificial challenge; I do it either because it communicates more information from the car or allows me to go faster.

On the other hand, there are times I do chose to run assists- if I'm just casually running laps around the Ring in a production car that would obviously have ABS, or if I'm racing on a track that has a lot of braking zones in sweepers in a car that has no business trail braking...

No, I agree with you (as does sark, now), polyphony have messed up BIG time with the ABS off option, it should be quicker running without it and its not.

But as my old dad used to say, "A good workman doesn't blame his tools.". Its not impossible to drive the FT-1 without lockups and quickly around laguna, it just takes alittle more skill and perseverance.

 

[Dusty1990]

I envy you guys who can live with cockpit view. You must have some very big screens. With 42" and normal distance in ordinary living room, I can barely see the words. They're so damn small since GT5.

The default (full screen) view is small enough, and the view out by cockpit position might only get 1/3-1/2 of total area. I'd need at least double size to see things clear. The interior of some cars are indeed very nice, though. Sigh~

Cockpit view is a hinderance, I usually run from the bonnet cam, better sound and spacial awareness from that one. Been running this one from the cockpit with all assists turned of, including HUD, great fun, 1:32'4 to date.