How Will Polyphony Digital Pull Off Graphics and Dynamic weather on PS4

How will GT7 run on Ps4!


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Like i and some other members here may remember I had start a Discussion way back when GT Sport its it rain update almost after 1 year after Lunch [How Did Polyphony Digital Pull Off The Rain Effects]
at this point most of us Agreed that GT sport was at the limits of the ps4 & ps4 pro.

This week what the new GT7 Trailer we have got Confirmation that it will be Cross gen and ps4 will get a Copy of the game.

the Question I ask how will they make it work if GT sport was all reday at the limits of the old hardware???

Also
How will we get track With dynamic weather when in GT sport it was not done because it was said to have made frame rates Unstable from its 60FPS ???

It won’t work. Not well anyway. Graphics will suffer and it will be 30fps, like ACC. ACC on PS4 is still a good game, but the graphics are pretty sketchy.

I’m not sure why this decision has been made. I presume forecasts for PS5 sales are low, so they are worried it just won’t offer enough of a market when GT7 is released.

incidentally, the big worry for me isn’t how it will perform on PS4, it’s how compromised will it be on PS5 as a result of the decision to make it work on PS4. I’m still on PS4 btw, but this seems like a decision that won’t offer the best racing experience for anyone…
 

regnar

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Premium
1,376
United States
Florida, USA
red95gts
Desman1982
It would appear at least at this point in time, looking at the two GT7 trailers that Trial Mountain has only variable weather with a static time of day, GT7 Announcement Trailer shows clouds change and move, but not the sun, both trailers are set a the same time of day, hope that's the case.
 
1,212
Serbia
Serbia
Warlock__SRB
...reading some of the comments, guys, not sure if you are aware, but GT7 was initially planned for PS4 from the very beginning. It was later in development that PD/Sony decided to make it PS5 exclusive, and then later on again (well it is confirmed, but we still didn't see anything) it will be cross gen title...

Not sure if all of you watched tech demos that PD showcased for GT in past few years. Here is the thing, as far as I remember, GTS was running 8k60 on some Sony TV, and apparently it was on hardware that was planned to be similar to PS5 hardware (maybe some of the first prototypes/dev kits), but here's the thing, we didn't see anywhere officially mentioned that GT7 will have RayTracing (well, we saw in last showcase some great shots with reflections, but are they DXR reflections?).
I remember that some of engineers back then said that they approached this type of lighting because it is most life like, and when asked about day/night cycle, that same engineer said it is impossible with current lighting engine to make it work without huge FPS drops, so they drop it out completely...

Now from a stand point of pure power of consoles, PS4 is a 1.84TFLOPS, PS4Pro is 4.2TFLOPS and PS5 is 10.3TFLOPS.
GTS is running on PS4 in native 1080p60 resolution with dips up to 40FPS, on PS4Pro the dips are rarer and go down to 50FPS, but let's say it is 99% of the time running at proper 60FPS... now, let's compare this to "PS5"ish 8k60, which were in fact upscaled 4k60 to 8k, why, well, GFX power for 8k is in fact 4x 4k, and GFX power for 4k is 4x 1080p in simple words, so this means in order to render 1080p60 @8k60 one needs 4x4 aka 16x more powerful GPU (without taking in account denser, more detailed textures and VRAM needed for those), and PS5's GPU is approx 5.6x faster/more powerful then PS4's... but this is not everything, there are generation differences, since PS4 is based on last gen gcn cards, while PS5 is based on rdna2 cards. There is difference here, but even that difference cannot make a card 2x and more faster with current TFLOPS...

Why all this, well, in order to run GTS in native 4k60, it would need at least 7.4TFLOPS of GPU power, with all the dips down to 40FPS, for stable 60FPS it'll need probably some 10-15% more power (if dips are GFX related), and with addition of RayTracing, which is really performance killer, on basically every card being it AMD or nVidia, so this would easily go up to 2x more TFLOPS needed in order to run properly (dependent of track, weather etc.).

If you all think there will be huge difference between GTS and GT7, you are wrong... Yes, GT7 will have probably a bit more graphical fidelity, better antialiasing, it will run smoother on 4k then GTS is, etc, but it will be the same... PD will optimize it for sure a bit, but then again, neither that can boost FPS insanely up...

Then again, all that we saw gameplay vise was basically GTS running new tracks, new cars... if you don't believe me, check really close to those few gameplay moments that were shown in this, and previous showcase, not trailers, but gameplay... I remember on Trial Mountain on previous gameplay showcase, how game was loading and switching LODs on distant cars, basically same as in current GTS build... And then there is YT compression that doesn't help at all with all this...

PD for sure spend all this time figuring out how to bring features that people/gamers/community is requesting, not that they are crazy about all that to bring it, but they know how GTS flopped in gamers eyes when released, they don't need this again...

I think it will be gorgeous game, and it will work properly on both console generations. And what Tidgney (Youtuber) said about reduced car count in GT7 for PS4 users, I highly doubt this will be the case, considering what approach Kazunori has...
Just remember, you have 30 car race in GTS currently, working fine, and there was early build of GTS running with 38 cars online...
 
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378
Canada
Canada
I don't know how people have leapt to the conclusion that there will be dynamic weather. It wasn't shown in the trailer and it wasn't mentioned in the blog post. Neither AI nor physics have been mentioned either so I think there are those who are setting their expectations way too high.
 
1,212
Serbia
Serbia
Warlock__SRB
I don't know how people have leapt to the conclusion that there will be dynamic weather. It wasn't shown in the trailer and it wasn't mentioned in the blog post. Neither AI nor physics have been mentioned either so I think there are those who are setting their expectations way too high.
...check here: https://blog.playstation.com/2021/09/09/gran-turismo-7-arrives-on-ps5-and-ps4-march-4/

Scroll down to Time/Weather "CHANGE" Simulation part of article...

Also there is written Variable Time on pictures below...
 

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platymusPrime
I don't know how people have leapt to the conclusion that there will be dynamic weather. It wasn't shown in the trailer and it wasn't mentioned in the blog post. Neither AI nor physics have been mentioned either so I think there are those who are setting their expectations way too high.
Few people have leapt to the conclusion that there will be dynamic weather, but most people are optimistic. There's good reason for this too. In their press release, they stated:

"Variable Time/Weather Simulation:
In GT7, a more natural and realistic variable time system and weather effect system have been recreated. Referencing a massive amount of meteorological observation data, including those from the academic databases of NASA, GT7 recreates spatial/time of day conditions for particle size distribution and concentration distribution of aerosol particles in the atmosphere on a global environmental scale. As a result, this feature unique to the Gran Turismo series can express real and complex sky patterns and changes in light for different times of day and weather conditions." Found here:
Also, there's a short clip in the latest trailer at 2:20 that shows surface wetness going from 100% to 93% at the Tsukuba Circuit (there's a new meter on the HUD to the left of the tire status). I'm hoping this is a sign of true Dynamic Weather, but it also could just be predetermined variations in wetness and grip levels in different patches around the track.
 
378
Canada
Canada
...check here: https://blog.playstation.com/2021/09/09/gran-turismo-7-arrives-on-ps5-and-ps4-march-4/

Scroll down to Time/Weather Simulation part of article...
I read that shortly after it was published. It reads like they are doing a fine job simulating different weather conditions during different times of day. But that doesn't confirm being able to participate in a race that will have rain with a wet track, then sunny with a partly dried track, all in the same race.

I'm hopeful, to be sure. Maybe they have found a shortcut so this will be doable. Or maybe the dynamic race will only be on PS5, which I've had since launch. But I don't see any confirmation of dynamic weather anywhere.
 
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1,212
Serbia
Serbia
Warlock__SRB
I read that shortly after it was published. It reads like they are doing a fine job simulating different weather conditions during different times of day. But that doesn't confirm being able to participate in a race that will have rain with a wet track, then sunny with a partly dried track, all in the same race.

I'm hopeful, to be sure. Maybe they have found a shortcut so this will be doable. Or maybe the dynamic race will only be on PS5, which I've had since launch. But I don't see any confirmation of dynamic weather anywhere.
Variable time is confirmed on pictures on GT/Sony blog, togehter with wearher that differs for same time... We all call it dynamic, but it is more of a gimick/illusion... Day/Night cycle changes on a constant pase rate, weather alone is a parameter (or few) that say what hue is the daylight, does it have droplets, what size they are and volume... For me, dynamic is more how will (if at all) they implement dynamic driving lane... There are few shoots of Tsukuba with wet track, but, here is my concern, on all those shoota, same part of the track was more wet (one that is not drived on), but there is nowhere to be see that whole part to be same wet...

I can't wait for the game, but honestly, I am not that hyped about all that dynamic things, because I don't wan't to be dissapointed again, but I do hope we'll get at least something...
 
386
United States
San Diego
Could this “dynamic weather” implementation simply be a set weather schedule for the day that PD uploads to your console when you log on? And then you could have the option of toggling it on or off in specific modes?
 
1,541
vspectra06
vspectra06
I don't know how people have leapt to the conclusion that there will be dynamic weather. It wasn't shown in the trailer and it wasn't mentioned in the blog post. Neither AI nor physics have been mentioned either so I think there are those who are setting their expectations way too high.
From the official PlayStation site details. The volumetric 3d cloud rendering would also be pointless to develop if it wasn't for dynamic weather changes.


"With over 420 cars available at Brand Central and the Used Car Dealership from day one, Gran Turismo 7 recreates the look and feel of classic motors and bleeding-edge supercars alike in unparalleled detail. Each car handles differently and feels unique as you navigate over 90 track routes in dynamic weather conditions, including classic courses from GT history."
 
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1,541
vspectra06
vspectra06
The real cloud simulator


Looks pretty cool, I wonder what this means for the skyboxes they used in GTS. There was the Willow Springs Lambo shot that still used an old skybox so maybe they will use a mix of static/dynamic

But happy to see the stars are back.
Oh snap you're right.

What's going on here PD...

gt7cloud2.png
 
515
Canada
montreal,quebec,canada
...reading some of the comments, guys, not sure if you are aware, but GT7 was initially planned for PS4 from the very beginning. It was later in development that PD/Sony decided to make it PS5 exclusive, and then later on again (well it is confirmed, but we still didn't see anything) it will be cross gen title...

Not sure if all of you watched tech demos that PD showcased for GT in past few years. Here is the thing, as far as I remember, GTS was running 8k60 on some Sony TV, and apparently it was on hardware that was planned to be similar to PS5 hardware (maybe some of the first prototypes/dev kits), but here's the thing, we didn't see anywhere officially mentioned that GT7 will have RayTracing (well, we saw in last showcase some great shots with reflections, but are they DXR reflections?).
I remember that some of engineers back then said that they approached this type of lighting because it is most life like, and when asked about day/night cycle, that same engineer said it is impossible with current lighting engine to make it work without huge FPS drops, so they drop it out completely...

Now from a stand point of pure power of consoles, PS4 is a 1.84TFLOPS, PS4Pro is 4.2TFLOPS and PS5 is 10.3TFLOPS.
GTS is running on PS4 in native 1080p60 resolution with dips up to 40FPS, on PS4Pro the dips are rarer and go down to 50FPS, but let's say it is 99% of the time running at proper 60FPS... now, let's compare this to "PS5"ish 8k60, which were in fact upscaled 4k60 to 8k, why, well, GFX power for 8k is in fact 4x 4k, and GFX power for 4k is 4x 1080p in simple words, so this means in order to render 1080p60 @8k60 one needs 4x4 aka 16x more powerful GPU (without taking in account denser, more detailed textures and VRAM needed for those), and PS5's GPU is approx 5.6x faster/more powerful then PS4's... but this is not everything, there are generation differences, since PS4 is based on last gen gcn cards, while PS5 is based on rdna2 cards. There is difference here, but even that difference cannot make a card 2x and more faster with current TFLOPS...

Why all this, well, in order to run GTS in native 4k60, it would need at least 7.4TFLOPS of GPU power, with all the dips down to 40FPS, for stable 60FPS it'll need probably some 10-15% more power (if dips are GFX related), and with addition of RayTracing, which is really performance killer, on basically every card being it AMD or nVidia, so this would easily go up to 2x more TFLOPS needed in order to run properly (dependent of track, weather etc.).

If you all think there will be huge difference between GTS and GT7, you are wrong... Yes, GT7 will have probably a bit more graphical fidelity, better antialiasing, it will run smoother on 4k then GTS is, etc, but it will be the same... PD will optimize it for sure a bit, but then again, neither that can boost FPS insanely up...

Then again, all that we saw gameplay vise was basically GTS running new tracks, new cars... if you don't believe me, check really close to those few gameplay moments that were shown in this, and previous showcase, not trailers, but gameplay... I remember on Trial Mountain on previous gameplay showcase, how game was loading and switching LODs on distant cars, basically same as in current GTS build... And then there is YT compression that doesn't help at all with all this...

PD for sure spend all this time figuring out how to bring features that people/gamers/community is requesting, not that they are crazy about all that to bring it, but they know how GTS flopped in gamers eyes when released, they don't need this again...

I think it will be gorgeous game, and it will work properly on both console generations. And what Tidgney (Youtuber) said about reduced car count in GT7 for PS4 users, I highly doubt this will be the case, considering what approach Kazunori has...
Just remember, you have 30 car race in GTS currently, working fine, and there was early build of GTS running with 38 cars online...
I don’t remember seeing any info that GT7 was a game in Development for ps4 before it became a ps5 Title, the feeling I had it was GT sport was just going to keep getting updates till the ps5, also the base ps4 is over 8 years old tech I will be Pretty impressed if pd to pull off Something special on it
 
20,866
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
...reading some of the comments, guys, not sure if you are aware, but GT7 was initially planned for PS4 from the very beginning. It was later in development that PD/Sony decided to make it PS5 exclusive, and then later on again (well it is confirmed, but we still didn't see anything) it will be cross gen title...
Gonna need a source on that.
 
163
Denmark
Denmark
Variable time is confirmed on pictures on GT/Sony blog, togehter with wearher that differs for same time...We all call it dynamic, but it is more of a gimick/illusion
There's a difference between "variable" (meaning "changeable") and "dynamic" (in this context meaning "continuously changing.")

PD doesn't mention "dynamic time of day" anywhere, as far as I'm aware. In fact, only "dynamic weather" is mentioned on the official GT7 web page. And we have a "variable time" feature already in GT Sport in the pre-race selectable static ToD presets.

I'll give you that dynamic ToD can be seen as a gimmick (or, to put it more diplomatically, a nice-to-have) in a game where the longest races are usually only 20-30 minutes long (the apparent movement of the Sun across the sky is only 15° per hour,) but surely there are players/leagues out there who'd like to run multi-hour races.

Had GT7 been a PS5 exclusive, it could indubitably be included, but when the game also has to run on the old PS4 at 60 FPS and look at least as good as GT Sport, it's difficult for me to believe it will be. Of course it could be a PS5 feature only, but if that's the case, why aren't they saying so?
 
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1,541
vspectra06
vspectra06
There's a difference between "variable" (meaning "changeable") and "dynamic" (in this context meaning "continuously changing.")

PD doesn't mention "dynamic time of day" anywhere, as far as I'm aware. In fact, only "dynamic weather" is mentioned on the official GT7 web page. And we have a "variable time" feature already in GT Sport in the pre-race selectable static ToD presets.

I'll give you that dynamic ToD can be seen as a gimmick (or, to put it more diplomatically, a nice-to-have) in a game where the longest races are usually only 20-30 minutes long (the apparent movement of the Sun across the sky is only 15° per hour,) but surely there are players/leagues out there who'd like to run multi-hour races.

Had GT7 been a PS5 exclusive, it could indubitably be included, but when the game also has to run on the old PS4 at 60 FPS and look at least as good as GT Sport, it's difficult for me to believe it will be. Of course it could be a PS5 feature only, but if that's the case, why aren't they saying so?
Definitely would be more confident dynamics are in after PD shows more or makes a dedicated trailer to them, but from all of the official Playstation and GT websites and Kaz's blogpost, only the term "dynamic weather" was stated outright in the playstation page intro details. Everywhere else, even GT's main page only says time/weather change simulation with the same detail as below. IMO it would be strange to call them a "simulation" of any kind if they were just static pre-set choices like in GTSport. I think they've included dynamics with the caveat that it most likely won't run at a stable 60fps on ps4.

"Time/Weather Change Simulations​

The time/weather change simulation brought to life in GT7 is unique to Polyphony Digital, who researched the complexities of nature and tailored it into a video game. Referencing a massive amount of meteorological observation data, we have recreated spatial / time of day conditions for particle size distribution and concentration distribution of aerosol particles in the atmosphere on a global environmental scale, in a procedure that is unique to the Gran Turismo series.

The validity of the simulation was checked using Scapes HDR images, for which we have accumulated data for several thousand spots all around the world. As a result, we have succeeded in expressing real and complex skyscapes and changes in light for different times of day and weather."
 
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1,218
Australia
Sydney
snakebacon97
I highly doubt they would return to a 30fps target after 22 years of 60fps. Whether it'll be as stable as Sport or more variable like 6 depends on what they do with lighting, shadow and reflection details, whether they've got a more efficient system or maybe turn a few settings down. I'm anticipating 50-60 fps on PS4, and options for 60 and 120 fps on PS5
 
163
Denmark
Denmark
@Vspectra Reading that PR blurb you cited reminds me of how politicians usually "answer" a simple question.

"Will GT7 feature on-track dynamic time of day?"

"The time/weather change simulation brought to life in GT7 is unique to Polyphony Digital, who researched the complexities of nature and tailored it into a video game. Referencing a massive amount of meteorological observation data, we have recreated spatial / time of day conditions for particle size distribution and concentration distribution of aerosol particles in the atmosphere on a global environmental scale, in a procedure that is unique to the Gran Turismo series.

The validity of the simulation was checked using Scapes HDR images, for which we have accumulated data for several thousand spots all around the world. As a result, we have succeeded in expressing real and complex skyscapes and changes in light for different times of day and weather."
 
1,212
Serbia
Serbia
Warlock__SRB
BTW check this guy's channel YT Link.

Especially this video that shows day time on track, here you can see in this video dynamic wetness on track, and this video and video shows 38 cars on N24 with rain and stress test with bunch of cars on same spot in GTS.

Considering all this is possible, PD surely did start on GT7 together with GTS and they did have in mind all this to work on PS4, at least thanks to this youtuber now we can see how many hidden things there are in GTS alone...
 
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753
Spain
Spain
It should definitely have an impact on graphics and car modelling, but since Yamauchi does not care about anything else other than those two things, then we might be seeing a really spectacular looking game on the ps4 fat, even wih dinamic weather now and at steady 60fps.
 

Scaff

Moderator
26,409
United Kingdom
He/Him
ScaffUK
ScaffGTP
GT5/6 style = 45fps

i dont think we live in a universe where 30 fps is acceptable to them

if the ps3 can do it why cant ps4?
Oh it got quite a bit lower than 45fps when you have a number of cars on track and it was raining heavily, those circumstances were often 30fps.

"Time/Weather Change Simulations​

The time/weather change simulation brought to life in GT7 is unique to Polyphony Digital, who researched the complexities of nature and tailored it into a video game. Referencing a massive amount of meteorological observation data, we have recreated spatial / time of day conditions for particle size distribution and concentration distribution of aerosol particles in the atmosphere on a global environmental scale, in a procedure that is unique to the Gran Turismo series.

The validity of the simulation was checked using Scapes HDR images, for which we have accumulated data for several thousand spots all around the world. As a result, we have succeeded in expressing real and complex skyscapes and changes in light for different times of day and weather."
This bit keeps annoying me, as while I'm sure that PD have a unique procedure that they use for it, the inference that this is something that only PD have managed to achieve is not accurate at all. Hell two people alone have managed it with the combination of the CSP and Sol mods on AC.

While it does also look great I also have reservations about how it will impact the physics and how it will evolve, as such I've not seen anything that shows it challenging LiveTrack in that regard (and its excellent implementation in AMS2).
 
BTW check this guy's channel YT Link.

Especially this video that shows day time on track, here you can see in this video dynamic wetness on track, and this video and video shows 38 cars on N24 with rain and stress test with bunch of cars on same spot in GTS.

Considering all this is possible, PD surely did start on GT7 together with GTS and they did have in mind all this to work on PS4, at least thanks to this youtuber now we can see how many hidden things there are in GTS alone...
That's me 👋

PS4 will have no problems with rain and time changes... if I had 50 hands to input the transtition values, a day / night cycle with changing rain in gameplay could be done in GT Sport.


How taxing is a cloud system?

GT Sport uses around 4GB max of memory and 60-70% of the cpu in any 20 car race, add another 10-15% when running 38 cars. Surely this extra left over juice is sufficient.
 
7,622
Denmark
Denmark
I think FPS will remain as in GTS but LODs and shadows will be compromised. Areas they can sacrifice without shame when the PS5 can have all the bells and whistles.
 
1,212
Serbia
Serbia
Warlock__SRB
That's me 👋

PS4 will have no problems with rain and time changes... if I had 50 hands to input the transtition values, a day / night cycle with changing rain in gameplay could be done in GT Sport.


How taxing is a cloud system?

GT Sport uses around 4GB max of memory and 60-70% of the cpu in any 20 car race, add another 10-15% when running 38 cars. Surely this extra left over juice is sufficient.
...is it possible for you to make external script to handle all that work? And then use debugger or something just to proceed them to PS4? TBH with you, not sure how all that is done... but what you've showcased on your channel regarding GTS, it's incredible... :)
 
12,049
Australia
Melbourne
Neomone/GTP_Imari
...reading some of the comments, guys, not sure if you are aware, but GT7 was initially planned for PS4 from the very beginning. It was later in development that PD/Sony decided to make it PS5 exclusive, and then later on again (well it is confirmed, but we still didn't see anything) it will be cross gen title...
Ah, another Polyphony insider here to provide us with true facts about the development of the game.
There's a difference between "variable" (meaning "changeable") and "dynamic" (in this context meaning "continuously changing.")

PD doesn't mention "dynamic time of day" anywhere, as far as I'm aware. In fact, only "dynamic weather" is mentioned on the official GT7 web page. And we have a "variable time" feature already in GT Sport in the pre-race selectable static ToD presets.

I'll give you that dynamic ToD can be seen as a gimmick (or, to put it more diplomatically, a nice-to-have) in a game where the longest races are usually only 20-30 minutes long (the apparent movement of the Sun across the sky is only 15° per hour,) but surely there are players/leagues out there who'd like to run multi-hour races.

Had GT7 been a PS5 exclusive, it could indubitably be included, but when the game also has to run on the old PS4 at 60 FPS and look at least as good as GT Sport, it's difficult for me to believe it will be. Of course it could be a PS5 feature only, but if that's the case, why aren't they saying so?
So they end up with a beefed up version of what FM7 did? That seems plausible and achievable for the hardware. I think that's a reasonable guess as to what we're actually going to end up getting.
 
1,212
Serbia
Serbia
Warlock__SRB
Ah, another Polyphony insider here to provide us with true facts about the development of the game.
...not an insider lol, Kazunori basically said it by himself in one of the tech previews.
 
13,878
United States
Los Angeles, CA
lImaRobotl
Variable time is confirmed on pictures on GT/Sony blog, togehter with wearher that differs for same time... We all call it dynamic, but it is more of a gimick/illusion... Day/Night cycle changes on a constant pase rate, weather alone is a parameter (or few) that say what hue is the daylight, does it have droplets, what size they are and volume... For me, dynamic is more how will (if at all) they implement dynamic driving lane... There are few shoots of Tsukuba with wet track, but, here is my concern, on all those shoota, same part of the track was more wet (one that is not drived on), but there is nowhere to be see that whole part to be same wet...

I can't wait for the game, but honestly, I am not that hyped about all that dynamic things, because I don't wan't to be dissapointed again, but I do hope we'll get at least something...
Variable time is confirmed. That's what gets me though, Why move away from the industry standard word "dynamic?" It's also weird that through those multiple pictures of the different time frames that they'd write variable over each of them - They could have just said it's dynamic and avoided wording that out in such a way at all. If it's dynamic, we know its a different time of day.. adding the word Variable on top of everything makes it sound more like a time of day selection rather than a dynamic instance.

Kind of reminds me of how T10 went around it when they started introducing Variable times of day for tracks before it was dynamic in their later iterations.

That's me 👋

PS4 will have no problems with rain and time changes... if I had 50 hands to input the transtition values, a day / night cycle with changing rain in gameplay could be done in GT Sport.


How taxing is a cloud system?

GT Sport uses around 4GB max of memory and 60-70% of the cpu in any 20 car race, add another 10-15% when running 38 cars. Surely this extra left over juice is sufficient.
The weird thing to me about your videos is that how have we seen FPS fluctuations in the main game with out having remotely close to the things you're testing. Something really isn't adding up between your videos and what we've seen.
 
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