Hybrid Technology

[SniperRed3]

Do we all think this is the way forward? F1 and wec have started using it to varying results

 

[05XR8]

Deleted

 

[RACECAR]

Might be too early to say considering as far as I can tell, those two series appear to literally be the only two series allowing them. Many people seem to still have this outdated and childish stigma about them (moreso in road going Super cars), but I do think they have a place on the track though as they provide a huge advantage over non-hybrid cars and in competition, isn't that usually the way to win is to gain an advantage?

 

[Carlos]

I'm waiting to see if awd will return in a racing GT-R and if it will be a possibility in F1.
Funny how awd was banned for its advantage, when it should have been embraced by other makes to develop their own in racing. MAYBE awd will make a comeback in Touring Cars.

Answering your question, I don't see why it wouldnt be the way forward.

AWD was never banned because of its advantage. It was only faster in the rain, and F1 these days.. Every kilo is 1 too much so I don't expect AWD soon there.

In WEC there is AWD, like Audi's R18 E-tron.

 

[05XR8]

Deleted

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Do we all think this is the way forward? F1 and wec have started using it to varying results

What do you mean "to varying results"?

Don't mistake the noise complaints and mechanical issues in Formula 1 for a failure of the ERS concept. The technology has been around since 2008 at least (the system had to be developed before it could be raced in 2009). The 2014 incarnation is simply the next evolutionary step, and has been for some time - the engine builders agreed to these regulations in August 2011. It's not some passing fad.

 

[SniperRed3]

Look at the reliability of f1 cars 14 cars finished the first race of f1 and mercedes have been miles faster than everyone else

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Look at the reliability of f1 cars 14 cars finished the first race of f1 and mercedes have been miles faster than everyone else

14 finishers at Albert Park isn't really anything out of the ordinary, ERS or not and one team dominating the sport definitely isn't anything out of the ordinary. Yes, Mercedes does have the better power unit but they did start their work long before Renault and Ferrari, who are both certainly capable of catching up by the end of the season.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Look at the reliability of f1 cars 14 cars finished the first race of f1 and mercedes have been miles faster than everyone else

That doesn't make the idea of ERS a failure. Just as there were teething problems with the original KERS units in 2009, so too is there going to be a breaking-in period when ERS-K and ERS-H take time to be developed.

Manufacturers are embracing this technology. One day it will hopefully find its way into road cars. But to suggest that it is a passing fad on the back of a few retirements is ludicrous.

 

[SniperRed3]

It's mental people hate it lewis is going to win the season i see it as a way forward for road cars but not for formula 1
Le mans maybe because of endurance and speed

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So that's what this is really about: people whinging about the noise abd/or the driver who is winning.

Formula 1 had no choice but to pick up hybrid power. The pre-2014 engines were ten years out of date, and without hybrid power, the sport would have just fallen further and further behind. Both Mercedes and Renault wanted it, to the point where they would have quit the sport without it.

But, no. The technology has no value because one driver is winning more than everyone else.

 

[SniperRed3]

It's not about one driver winning more it's about pointless "innovation" hybrid technology isn't needed for f1 it's 70 laps round a circuit not 100s it's better for endurance, the fact that cars have been designed and maufactured with energy recovery before formula 1 used them it won't effect the daily runabouts because it's expensive technology FIA has been wanting to destroy their fan base with moving f1 to sky sports, energy recovery and pay to view wec

 

[RACECAR]

It's not about one driver winning more it's about pointless "innovation" hybrid technology isn't needed for f1 it's 70 laps round a circuit not 100s it's better for endurance, the fact that cars have been designed and maufactured with energy recovery before formula 1 used them it won't effect the daily runabouts because it's expensive technology FIA has been wanting to destroy their fan base with moving f1 to sky sports, energy recovery and pay to view wec

You just seem like you have very misguided hate at the FIA overall, strangely for two things that have nothing to do with Hybrid Technology. The FIA makes rules, they don't handle TV packages or Pay to view services.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

pointless "innovation" hybrid technology isn't needed for f1

Okay. Let's get rid of it, then. Mercedes and Renault will leave the sport, since they wanted hybrids. Honda will shelve their project, since it will no longer be viable. And anybody looking to enter the sport will need to go back to the drawing board and start over, meaning it will be at least two years before they can join.

Congratulations - you just killed the sport.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

If they successfully innovate hybrids in motorsports, we can definitely see these new technology in our daily drivers in a couple years. Its definitely the way forward

 

[Furinkazen]

It's not about one driver winning more it's about pointless "innovation" hybrid technology isn't needed for f1 it's 70 laps round a circuit not 100s it's better for endurance,

I'm no major F1 fan, but I see F1 as merely wanting to be a technological showcase. Hence hybrid technology.

the fact that cars have been designed and maufactured with energy recovery before formula 1 used them it won't effect the daily runabouts because it's expensive technology

Most new technology is expensive. Also since when has F1 ever been about tech for road cars?

FIA has been wanting to destroy their fan base with moving f1 to sky sports, energy recovery and pay to view wec

FIA are irrelevant to Sky Sports. That's regional broadcasting. I understand the WEC complaints but maybe worth pointing out that it's 20 euros for 42 hours of racing, a good deal.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

F1 needs to introduce a stringent cost cap but it also needs to deregulate the Formula slightly. Allow any kind of engine within the fuel limit, allow any ERS/KERS system that can be deployed at any time (or even constantly working) allow any Aero package provided the cars stay within certain dimensions and are open wheeled.
That will allow the teams to innovate new technology on a budget (I know there are many debates on how teams find loopholes and workarounds) as opposed to spending vast sums of money shaving a few kgs off parts to gain 0.001s because they can only develop what the FIA wants

Developing hybrid systems for a multitude of engines and designs will benefit a greater number of road vehicles in the long run.

Motorsports and road vehicles go hand in hand. Hybrids are not the future, they are now and over the next few years they'll become cheaper and filter into most types of car. The Future will probably be electric vehicles, or hydrogen electric, that is until the next innovation comes along.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Might be too early to say considering as far as I can tell, those two series appear to literally be the only two series allowing them. Many people seem to still have this outdated and childish stigma about them (moreso in road going Super cars), but I do think they have a place on the track though as they provide a huge advantage over non-hybrid cars and in competition, isn't that usually the way to win is to gain an advantage?

The Japanese touring series had hybrids as well in the GT300 and so does the GT500 now with the new Honda.

 

[RACECAR]

The Japanese touring series had hybrids as well in the GT300 and so does the GT500 now with the new Honda.

Ah, forgot all about the CR-Z and the Prius (and the new NSX as well). Ok, make that three.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Ah, forgot all about the CR-Z and the Prius (and the new NSX as well). Ok, make that three.

Yeah that's all there is sadly, but F1 is claiming that there technology is already making its way to real world off track so I guess you can say there are slight benefits even in it's limited use in Motorsports.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think Energy Recovery Systems are really the way forward. Hybrids, like the Prius, might be nice, but ERS addresses many of the issues that conventional hybrids don't. KERS harvests the energy from an engine spinning while under brakes - as braking is a separate process - that would otherwise be wasted, which is an issue that conventional hybrids would still have. And with the advent of waste heat recovery, there is plenty of scope for development. The automotive industry should focus on making better use of what they already have, rather than developing a parallel system and pretending its benefits mean its issues do not exist.

 

[Jawehawk]

I don't much like hybrids. and I absolutely hate Electric cars. I don't see hybrids as a viable future in the road car market, both because they've done horribly Thus far in sales, but also because numerous diesel/petrol cars have proven to be more enviromentally friendly in terms of CO2 emissions and production related emissions.

F1 has become increasingly irrelevant, and it seems as if every single race is determined in qualifying. If it dies, then that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. It has become a joke with cars that look and sound horrible, boring drivers that aren't allowed to do/say anything but what the sponsors tell them to do/say, and with next to no racing.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

numerous diesel/petrol cars have proven to be more enviromentally friendly in terms of CO2 emissions and production related emissions

But they still have the same fundamental issues that ERS is designed to solve. When you accelerate, the engine spins and you move forward. When you brake, you slow down, but the engine continues to spin. Even if the car is designed to reduce CO2 emissions, the engine continues to spin, wasting energy. ERS captures that energy, which is stored for later use. And as Formula 1 further demonstrates, the ECU can be used to direct that energy so that it is used in the most effective and efficient way, further cutting emissions.

These systems are a far cry from the Hollywood liberals and hipsters extolling the virtues of an early-model Prius.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't much like hybrids. and I absolutely hate Electric cars. I don't see hybrids as a viable future in the road car market, both because they've done horribly Thus far in sales, but also because numerous diesel/petrol cars have proven to be more enviromentally friendly in terms of CO2 emissions and production related emissions.

F1 has become increasingly irrelevant, and it seems as if every single race is determined in qualifying. If it dies, then that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. It has become a joke with cars that look and sound horrible, boring drivers that aren't allowed to do/say anything but what the sponsors tell them to do/say, and with next to no racing.

Prius and what you see in P1 and F1 are vastly different, ask any Mech engineer or Aero engineer that has to deal with it. Yes Diesel is great and I'd say better than Petrol but it has it issues and when coupled with hybrid technology like ERS and KERS it becomes even greater.

 

[Jawehawk]

But how likely do you guys think it is that we'll see such fairly advanced stuff in inexpensive road cars?
And do we really want to make cars even more advanced, with more parts that can break?


Sidenote: Also, as I was in a hurry to finish my earlier post. I'd just like to say that I don't mean to step over anyones toes about F1. I know a lot of people love it, and of course it would be a great shame if they didn't get to follow their passion in the future. I just don't like it myself.

 

[niky]

Let's be perfectly clear about this: A hybrid-equipped car is never going to be the fastest car on the track, from a purely mechanical standpoint. Every kilogram wasted on hybrid assist systems is one kilogram more to carry around.

This is why Red Bull so blithely ignored its own KERS development for so long, and why it's coming back to bite them now that the Formula basically makes you horribly uncompetitive without the full suite of assists.

But this is the future of motoring. 100 kilograms of fuel per race is the now of Formula One. Ignoring energy recovery of any kind under that Formula means you won't be competitive at all. Besides: Racing is all about adaptation, and without relevance to roadcars, then racing gets no sponsorship money. And without sponsorship money, racing doesn't exist.

-

In relation to road cars, the hybridization of racing feeds into the hybridization of super cars and sports cars, and vice versa. Road cars already use brake-related energy recovery, energy recovery via turbine is coming up, and exhaust heat recovery may or may not be far off, depending on how expensive it'll be.

None of this has to be tied into a complex hybrid system. Energy recovery can be utilized simply to keep the battery topped off, or to run a capacitor bank to run accessories (and AC) with the engine-off (on cars with a start-stop system). Mazda already uses capacitors and aggressive energy recovery to power its i-Eloop system on the 6 and CX5. Very effectively, I might add... to the tune of around 5-6 mpg in traffic (doesn't show up well on EPA, but in the real world, it works).

-

As for parts that break. It's undeniable that batteries can and do fail, and that it's an expensive issue when it happens, but with the right systems, like the one Toyota uses in the Prius, it can be less troublesome than a similar gasoline-powered or diesel-powered car. Most Prii need nothing more than a change of fluids (less often than with gas cars that have the engine on more often), new brake pads (again, less often, thanks to regen braking) and new tires over the first few hundred thousand miles.

Within that time, a comparable diesel (same economy, same size) will have had to have their EGR valve cleaned, the DPF checked or cleaned, more than double the oil changes (oil dilution), the turbo checked (and often the variable geometry turbine solenoid replaced), possibly some work on the high pressure pump or even new high pressure injectors, and, of course, the urea tank refilled a whole lot of times (if you're in America).

The economics of hybrids doesn't work out for everyone. But if you get a good one, it'll last you a long time, and it'll retain value well enough to partially pay back the upfront cost not covered by fuel savings.

 

[RACECAR]

F1 has become increasingly irrelevant, and it seems as if every single race is determined in qualifying. If it dies, then that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. It has become a joke with cars that look and sound horrible, boring drivers that aren't allowed to do/say anything but what the sponsors tell them to do/say, and with next to no racing.

When has F1 ever been relevant to Road cars? Yes various technologies came from F1 but it wasn't so much intentionally done as it someone else looked and thought "Hey, we could use that"

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

But how likely do you guys think it is that we'll see such fairly advanced stuff in inexpensive road cars?
And do we really want to make cars even more advanced, with more parts that can break?


Sidenote: Also, as I was in a hurry to finish my earlier post. I'd just like to say that I don't mean to step over anyones toes about F1. I know a lot of people love it, and of course it would be a great shame if they didn't get to follow their passion in the future. I just don't like it myself.

I saved this just for you http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2014/4/15741.html

I don't understand your logic at all, more moving parts doesn't automatically give way to this old world notion that things will break down. That's usually an argument I see from old people who say 60s cars were better built and easier to fix due to less parts. Hybrid tech has been around for years and obviously has been improved to a great degree as F1 is proving.

As for the F1 I'm a massive fan of it but arguing about the sport rather than the topic isn't relevant; so I decided not to get into some drawn out argument about it where neither of us are going to change our perception on a sport.

When has F1 ever been relevant to Road cars? Yes various technologies came from F1 but it wasn't so much intentionally done as it someone else looked and thought "Hey, we could use that"

Tell that to manufactures that have joined in the past couple decades looking to the sport to improve what rolls of their assembly line. Same goes for why groups join other top tier groups like P1 or MotoGP. They get to spend money on development with the chance of be rewarded monetarily for winning the series and at the same time plugging their brand or exploiting it to the masses basically as an extra bonus.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What's the alternative?

Sure, manufacturers could develop the ERS on their own. But they would take decades and spend hundreds of millions of dollars doing it. As a competitive environment, motorsports will develop ERS technologies faster and cheaper than if manufacturers did it on their own.

 

[Jawehawk]

According to the symposium I went to earlier this year, F1 isn't relevant to road cars because of the insane cost for anything they put in them. The new regulations are designed to change that, but without a cost cap (that I know of), it won't change a thing. The big teams spend over 300 millions a year on the developemnt and running of these cars.

I don't know. I simply don't like it. I don't want racing to be political correct. I want it to be fun, filled with actual racing, loud engines and good looking cars. With technology that is this expensive to develope, you're only increasing the performance gap between different teams. Reliability and performance has definately been hit by these changes, as evident i nboth LMP1 and F1. Further reducing the amount of actual racing we'll see. And that's not why I watch and follow racing.

I don't know enough about the different power sources, other than your average combustion engine and electrical/hyrbid cars, to really comment on what an alternative could be.