I <DUSTED> THE GT40, MAN!!!

[Parnelli Bone]

This thread is about smoking the GT40 in Rome, ok?

I know, that's how it started out... a discussion about Rome, but halfway thru it turned into a discussion about Grindelwald, which is an easier race.

 

[Korndawg]

I know, that's how it started out... a discussion about Rome, but halfway thru it turned into a discussion about Grindelwald, which is an easier race.

yeah guys cmon now this isnt a contest to see whose balls are biggest. just wondering here parnelli, do you remember how much of a gap was between you and the gt? i can win the race but i dont think ive ever completely crushed the gt. but i love ur car choice, the 240zg (and '71 gt-r) are two of the sweetest cars in the game

 

[Parnelli Bone]

yeah guys cmon now this isnt a contest to see whose balls are biggest. just wondering here parnelli, do you remember how much of a gap was between you and the gt? i can win the race but i dont think ive ever completely crushed the gt. but i love ur car choice, the 240zg (and '71 gt-r) are two of the sweetest cars in the game

Lol about the ball comment. I rarely keep records on the time, but I remember I was ahead by 3 or 4 car lengths. At one point in lap 2, the GT40 was getting pretty close, (just before the Colesseum, I think) but I managed to corner near-perfectly for the rest of the race....braking into the turn. The GT40 driver is smart and tends to try and keep straight...braking before the turn I've noticed. anyone who's strived for gold medals will have improved cornering, basically, and this is really what helped me win the race the way I did.

 

[Korndawg]

yeah the licenses actualy help more than you would think. i still ned some practice till i can get all the corners of a track right on my first try, but im working on it.. can you get the gols in all the licenses? i can only get them in B, A, IB, and i got IA once. i can get all but one with IC, the one in the camaro with the tight blind corners.

 

[Korndawg]

can you get the gols in all the licenses?

i meant golds not gols. sorry kinda tired

 

[Parnelli Bone]

yeah the licenses actualy help more than you would think. i still ned some practice till i can get all the corners of a track right on my first try, but im working on it.. can you get the gols in all the licenses? i can only get them in B, A, IB, and i got IA once. i can get all but one with IC, the one in the camaro with the tight blind corners.

I've gotten all golds in all the licenses except IA and Special (haven't attempted them yet, altho the Special license looks alot easier than I thought. On my first try, I got all silvers at that one).

Yeah, that Camaro test SUCKS. The trick is you must line your car up so that your inside wheels touch the red & white curbing on both corners. There's no other way.

 

[Korndawg]

ok thanx for the tip ill give that a try or two, or a hundred

 

[Jmac279]

I can do every license in less than an hour a piece ...

 

[Korndawg]

I can do every license in less than an hour a piece ...

cool, it takes me a while to get the golds in I licenses but i can do B and A licenses in like 10-20 minutes each. ive done them so many times i can get gold first or second try in all of those ones. im just not very good in certain cars

 

[michael_s_k]

So...what about the best car to defeat the GT 40 at Rome?

 

[TeaKanji]

So...what about the best car to defeat the GT 40 at Rome?

Here's a list of the best cars that can handle it, ideally upgraded as close to 295hp as possible with drivetrain upgrades, super soft racing tyres and racing modifications:

• any RX-7
• any Impreza
• any Silvia (except the S13 Q's I guess)
• Lancer Evo V RS
• Honda S2000
• Dodge Concept Car
• NSX Type S Zero / Type R
• Clio Sport
• FTO GP Ver. R

 

[michael_s_k]

I just did it with my Suzuki Cappuccino with 190hp

I was able to pass him only on the last corner, and won with an advantage of... 0.026s

The Cappuccino is a fine car with many desirable qualities in well-balanced combination. But regardless of tuning, defeating the GT40 with the Cappuccino is a daunting challenge indeed given the salient difference in acceleration and top speed regardless of modification and tuning. To encounter an account of a GT2 enthusiast besting the GT40 with a Cappuccino is surprising. I'd like to believe this bold claim is true. But in practice it seems to be more of a wild GT40 chase so to speak than a reasonable possibility as I've learned from experience. A win is possible, sure, and much more likely if one is capable of blocking the GT40 effectively for an extended period. But even if the GT40 starts in the 6th position it means spending most of the race on defense in a frenzy of blocking. To best the GT40 with the venerable but underpowered Cappuccino by keeping up with it throughout this race is a challenge to say the least. I mean, talk about a mismatch. Imagine how many of our fellow GT2 fans read your post and wasted hours or days giving it their all to pull off this incredible feat of masterful tuning and vehicle operation. Because who doesn't love a serious challenge? A video of this extraordinary accomplishment would make for interesting, edifying and entertaining viewing indeed. So if anyone has a recording of a Historical Car Cup Rome Circuit cup win over the GT40 (using the Suzuki Cappuccino), please post said win for our amazement and education.

Regarding the idea of the Cappuccino besting the GT40 during the Historical Car Cup Rome circuit (sorry if this is totally redundant):

The Cappuccino is a fine car with many desirable qualities in well-balanced combination. I personally favor the cafe over most keis in most situations. But regardless of tuning, defeating the GT40 with the Cappuccino is a daunting challenge given the salient difference in acceleration and top speed regardless of modification and tuning.

So to come across an account of a GT2 enthusiast besting the GT40 with a Cappuccino is striking. I'd like to believe the bold and stimulating claims. And based on my own attempts, it does seem possible. But so far it often feels more like a wild GT40 chase so to speak.

A win is possible, sure, and much more likely if one is capable of tuning rather precisely and in ways I am clearly not aware of and of blocking the GT40 effectively for what might be a short jaunt or an extended period. Even if the GT40 starts in the 6th position it means demanding driving to say the least and the ability to stop the perfectly-driven Gt40 from passing.

To best the GT40 with the venerable but underpowered Cappuccino by keeping up with it throughout this race is a challenge to say the least. I mean, talk about a mismatch. Imagine how many of our fellow GT2 fans read your post and, as I did, spent hours giving it their all to pull off this incredible feat of masterful tuning and vehicle operation. Because who doesn't love a serious challenge?

In any event, a video of this extraordinary accomplishment would make for interesting, edifying and entertaining viewing indeed. So if anyone has a recording of an Historical Car Cup Rome Circuit win over the GT40 (using the Suzuki Cappuccino), please post said win for our amazement and education and thank you.

And that's the whole point of this thread. No matter what you enter, the GT40 will have more power and a better pound to power ratio in most cases since it's so light and is several HP over the limit. Also, the computer drives it flawlessly. You don't see it bash into walls once or do anything stupid. So what is left? All that is left is your driving, it has to be near-perfect. You can scrape a wall perhaps, but forget about spinning and recovering your lead...the GT40 will get far ahead.

Also, I find that if the GT40 is sitting in pole position or 2nd, I won't be able to catch it. The one stupid move it makes is at the beginning of the race: if it's in 3rd, 4th, or 5th place at the start, it will slam into whoever is ahead of it and won't pass till the 2nd or 3rd corner!

You make many accurate and relevant observations here.

 

[TeaKanji]

In any event, a video of this extraordinary accomplishment would make for interesting, edifying and entertaining viewing indeed. So if anyone has a recording of an 80's cup Rome Circuit win over the GT40 (using the Suzuki Cappuccino), please post said win for our amazement and education.

Here you go, I hope it doesn't disappoint. Done using PAL 25 FPS. My driving wasn't the cleanest and I messed up the last corner on both laps, but thankfully a perfect run wasn't required. I got a 'lucky' line-up, with two GT40's and one in pole, and I didn't want to have to reset for another.

 

[michael_s_k]

Here's a list of the best cars that can handle it, ideally upgraded as close to 295hp as possible with drivetrain upgrades, super soft racing tyres and racing modifications:

• any RX-7
• any Impreza
• any Silvia (except the S13 Q's I guess)
• Lancer Evo V RS
• Honda S2000
• Dodge Concept Car
• NSX Type S Zero / Type R
• Clio Sport
• FTO GP Ver. R

TeaKanji - Thanks for your reply which assisted in my first ever win over the GT40 during the Historical Car Cup Rome Circuit race and d-amn it was an interesting challenge. Scanning your suggestions I chose the Honda S2000 because I dig its balance, made some tuning adjustments to LSD etc and beat the GT40, my first time ever, on attempt number three, passing it several times including on the 2nd-to-last lap then just barely managing to block the GT40 after making a costly error during the final turn (entered too fast in sheer excitement, lost MPH due to car-meets-wall-briefly) forcing a fast jog to the right to prevent it from passing (YOU SHALL NOT PASS!) and finished just in front winning by only +0133. It was an embarrassingly exhilarating experience lol. I appreciate your fine suggestions and am going to try to beat the GT40 again, choosing from among my favorites in your thoughtful list. And btw, TeaKanji is at the least a likable choice as a username and may well qualify as both cool and clever (which is subjective, I know) especially if there's a good anecdote behind your choice of this username and/or if you can express it verbally in Nipponese or better yet, wow us with you calligraphy with the ink-brush-drawn kanji for "ocha" although karigana would be acceptable too (although less cool as kanji is the bomb).

).

 

[michael_s_k]

Thanks in part to TeaKanji's thoughtful suggestions in reply to my query regarding the best cars with which to defeat the GT40, I achieved my first ever win over the "powerful Mach 5" of the Historic Car Cup Rome Circuit Race and it was both an interesting challenge as well as providing an exciting driving experience. Scanning TK's suggestions, I chose the Honda S2000 because I have always appreciated its fine balance, made some tuning adjustments to LSD etc and beat the GT40, my first time ever, on attempt number three, passing it several times including on the 2nd-to-last lap then just barely managing to block the GT40 after making a costly error during the final turn (entered too fast in sheer excitement, lost speed due to the "car-meets-wall-briefly" phenomenon) forcing a fast jog to the right to prevent that tenacious GT40 from passing (YOU SHALL NOT PASS!) and finished just in front, winning by only +.0133. And I did it all using the S2000's automatic transmission rather than manual which in this case worked out fine.

It was an embarrassingly exhilarating experience and I appreciate TeaKanji's fine suggestions which clearly originate from experience and which helpoed me immeasurably.

I am going to try to beat the GT40 again using a different vehicle from TeaKanji's list. Super-fun stuff and thanks again TeaKanji for your wise suggestions, many of which I had not imagined as viable contenders although d-amn I spent countless hours trying to beat the GT40 using a myriad of other vehicles including the Suzuki Cappuccino (only because someone claimed it was possible) which sounded like an intense and potentially rewarding challenge but, um, the GT40 is saliently faster than the Cappuccino as in keeping up at any point once passed on the fifth or sixth turn is extremely difficult and despite my best tunings and finest general efforts I passed it once or twice from race to race but in the end my total efforts with the Cappuccino can be summarized by my experience of watching the GT40 fade away into the distance on one of Rome Circuits long gentle curves creating an undesirable temporal deficit that ultimately proved insurmountable even if I pwned it during a cornering moment or two. I am not stating that beating the GT40 utilising the Cappuccino is impossible, but it is at the very least extremely challenging.

In any event, beating the Historic Cup GT40 using the S2000 was definitely an engaging process requiring precise tuning and even more precise driving and proved to be a novel racing experience as enjoyable as it was challenging. And yeah, on attempt #three: success! And how sweet the experience of finally beating that f-ing GT40 driven by a flawless Racer X apparently able to increase its horsepower and overall performance to match whatever machine I chose against it. So if you're new to Gran Turismo 2 or are an experienced player who has not yet really tackled the Rome Circuit GT40 challenge, rest assured it is a worthwhile and rewarding process that can absolutely end in success and I am attaching a screenshot as some measure of proof that the Historic Car Cup Rome Circuit Ford GT40 can be defeated even by "lesser" vehicles and despite the computer driver's absolute mastery of the course.

So, have at it if you haven't already as it's definitely a rewarding challenge and thanks again to TeaKanji for his thoughtful suggestion re: vehicles capable of helping one defeat the GT40. Am off to try again using an Impreza, a tactic I have employed previously without success but since then I have learned so much about modification and tuning the suspension, transmission and LSD that I think I have a solid chance. I mean, if the Cappucino can pull it off, anything is possible on this particular Polyphony playground, GT 2. Happy motoring, people!

Here you go, I hope it doesn't disappoint. Done using PAL 25 FPS. My driving wasn't the cleanest and I messed up the last corner on both laps, but thankfully a perfect run wasn't required. I got a 'lucky' line-up, with two GT40's and one in pole, and I didn't want to have to reset for another.

Thank you, TeaKanji! Color me oh-so-amazed by this stunning and immensely enjoyably high-resolution video capture of your exponentially more stunning and entertaining racing achievement as you pull off the seemingly impossible: taking first place during an Historic Car Cup Rome Circuit race featuring not one but two GT40s. An absolutely extraordinary feat!

In short: amazing work, TeaKanji, and the stuff of legend and massive inspiration-fuel. Others have said beating the GT40 in this race is "no big deal", but doing so with a f-cking Suzuki Cappuccino is nothing short of deeply impressive. Much respect for your skill, knowledge and experience and beyond that your willingness to freely share your tuning preferences and other information. Some of your new-to-me and seemingly unusual tuning choices are fascinating and seem worthy of analysis and testing.

In summary, I appreciate the posting of this video capturing what I consider to be a remarkable driving achievement on your part. I'm impressed, excited knowing that my efforts with the Cappuccino were not completely in vain and form a solid basis on which, thanks to your input, to expand and refine tuning and driver performance to a level enabling the toppling of the front-engine rear wheel drive Goliath the GT40 represents, and I appreciate your prompt replies to my various queries and requests.

Arigato, TeaKanji-san. Again: absolutely brilliant work and I am glad you took the time to post proof positive of your epic achievement, video which makes an excellent skills tutorial, is a cool AF viewing experience and stimulates one's desire to work hard towards achieving a similar level of success using the relatively weak 90's f-cking kei car, el cafe (my personal favorite although there are other very capable keis worthy of admiration), to defeat a 1960's relatively high-HP very maneuverable powerhouse legend uber-machine the GT YonJu represents and having more than a little fun along the way.

 

[michael_s_k]

Parnelli Bone et al, On the subject of license exams (although this IS a "Beating the Historic Cup Rome Circuit GT40 With Style and Panache" forum):

The tight blind-cornered "Camaro test" I've read mentioned here was for me, strangely and remarkably easy to pass. I somehow thrive on the blind cornering tests. Go figure.

On the other hand: How does everyone feel about the countersteering exams? It definitely took me awhile to get the hang of those awful if instructive tests and I still detest and even mildly dread then during each playthrough and wow, even the thought of those exams fills me with disgust lol. Have never gotten better than silver.

But the exams I hate most are the slalom tests. I have to get into quite a precise groove and be very much in the zone to pass those bad boys with anything approaching ease. The slalom events have on occasion taken me up to (an embarrassing number of) attempts to pass. Anyone else dislike the slalom exams or am I just the only one doing it wrong?

(We now return you to your regularly programmed "Beating the Historic Cup Rome Circuit GT40 With Style and Panache" forum)

 

[SU_Tempest]

Here you go, I hope it doesn't disappoint. Done using PAL 25 FPS. My driving wasn't the cleanest and I messed up the last corner on both laps, but thankfully a perfect run wasn't required. I got a 'lucky' line-up, with two GT40's and one in pole, and I didn't want to have to reset for another.

I'm just passing through this thread to say that was positively amazing to watch.

 

[michael_s_k]

I bested the Historic Car (Rome Circuit) GT40 again, this time in an automatic '96 Mazda RX-7 Type RZ, one of my favorites, and was surprised to triumph over the GT40 on my very first attempt (although I did take six test laps to test the effects of my tuning beforehand).

Based on my two wins against the GT40, the first with an S2000, the second with the Mazda RX-7, I feel I can state with some authority that our pesky GT40 absolutely can be beaten and apparently by a variety of different vehicles.

So if you haven't seriously tackled this challenge yet I recommend that you give it a try as it's entertaining and even educational in regard to driving experience, tuning and so on.

Thanks to everyone who posted their own GT40 victories here as your messages are what inspired me to take the plunge back into exploring strategies, tactics and specific vehicles/mods/tunings with which to beat the GT40, an already overpowered vehicle with a flawless driver function that has annoyed countless Gran Turismo fans around the world.

(White Zombie's classic All-American racing homage "Black Sunshine" (featuring Iggy Pop) begins playing followed appropriately by "Where the Sidewalk Ends" (Gran Turismo Begins lol), the hidden track from Astro-Creep 2000)

I'm just passing through this thread to say that was positively amazing to watch.

Absolutely. This video representation of his epic Cappuccino victory over not one but two GT40s is fully captivating and the work of a GT 2 master, one whose artful tuning and driving magic have touched the hearts of every driver to experience said video, inspiring some to achieve GT40 victory or die trying and condemning others to madness with the overwhelming and for many unattainable majesty of it all.

 

[TeaKanji]

I'm just passing through this thread to say that was positively amazing to watch.

Absolutely. This video representation of his epic Cappuccino victory over not one but two GT40s is fully captivating and the work of a GT 2 master, one whose artful tuning and driving magic have touched the hearts of every driver to experience said video, inspiring some to achieve GT40 victory or die trying and condemning others to madness with the overwhelming and for many unattainable majesty of it all.

Hehe, thanks guys. Definitely don't consider myself a GT2 master though, at least not from a driving perspective. Glad the video helped out. Yeah, the settings I used are pretty weird, let me walk through them to attempt to de-mystify them:

Spring rates: went with 2.0 / 10.0 to go for as much oversteer as possible, as the super soft racing tyres are giving the car massive grip. Setting the front springs as low as possible, combined with high downforce, subjects the car to a phenomenon called "ground effects". This lets the car take extremely tight turns after elevation changes, but it also makes the car more difficult to control if you're not careful. Try these spring rates on Trial Mountain and you'll see what I mean when you get to the sharp left corner before the final straight. The stiff rear springs won't be affected though and will keep the car stable. You can set the front springs to 4.0+ to reduce the effect.

Ride height: this is the key setting that lets the Cappuccino keep up with the GT40's. GT2 has a glitch where setting the front height low and the rear height high boosts acceleration. The 'downside' of this is that you're moving the car's center of gravity forward, which makes the car more difficult to turn. Thankfully, the Cappuccino is barely affected by this, and still handles great.

Dampers: same as springs, 1 / 10 bounds and rebounds for max oversteer. GT2 dampers are broken. There's two ways to set up dampers: soft front / stiff rear for oversteer, or both sides soft to let the car handle bumps more easily. 2 / 2 bounds and rebounds work well, especially on PAL where 25 FPS physics make bumps more extreme. Personal preference.

Camber: 2.2 front is my go-to setting for most cars, seems to reduce understeer the most. I kept the rear camber at 1.0 as the Cappuccino didn't really need any extra grip in corners. Could be lowered to 0.5 to help the car turn even more, or raised if the car is losing grip easily.

Toe: another classic broken GT2 setting. -0.20 / 0.20 is my go-to for making pretty much any car turn more easily, for basically no downside from what I can tell.

Stabilisers: never noticed much of an extreme difference with stabiliser settings in this game, 3 / 5 is a go-to for me at this point.

Brake balance: The Cappuccino doesn't have much of an issue with braking stability, especially with the ride height settings, so this doesn't matter much, I just went with 24 / 22 and it seemed to work fine.

Gears: here we go. I couldn't really show this in the video without going through the whole process, but I did something called the 'gear trick' to give the car extremely close gears. The Cappuccino has a narrow power band at high-RPM's, which is why I drove in manual and geared up as late as possible for the best acceleration. Using Auto Setup 1 with a very fast final gear, then slowing down the final gear, gives you the best gear ratios for close gears. The gears in the video were set up with a less efficient method than the one I use now. To replicate them, set the final gear to 5.500, then set Auto Setup to 1, then set the final gear to 3.400, then set 1st through 5th to 2.531, 2.020, 1.590, 1.265, 0.985. The tricky bit is finding the right final gear that gives the car enough top speed without sacrificing the 1st gear launch, as the Cappuccino is only a 5-speed. I was almost hitting top speed on the long straights.

Downforce: max front and rear, pretty much no reason not to, unless the car has extreme understeer which lowering the rear downforce can help with.

LSD: I set Decel to 15 because I was having issues with the Cappuccino divebombing uncontrollably into corners with PAL 25 FPS physics. On a higher frame rate, I'd set this lower to let the car turn into corners more easily. I don't want the LSD to activate and cause understeer while accelerating, so the Initial and Accel are set to 1.

Hopefully that explains what was going on, and why the Cappuccino was punching above its weight. It's a surprisingly fast car, one of the best sub-197hp cars IMO.

 

[michael_s_k]

yeah the licenses actualy help more than you would think. i still ned some practice till i can get all the corners of a track right on my first try, but im working on it.. can you get the gols in all the licenses? i can only get them in B, A, IB, and i got IA once. i can get all but one with IC, the one in the camaro with the tight blind corners.

Hehe, thanks guys. Definitely don't consider myself a GT2 master though, at least not from a driving perspective. Glad the video helped out. Yeah, the settings I used are pretty weird, let me walk through them to attempt to de-mystify them:

Spring rates: went with 2.0 / 10.0 to go for as much oversteer as possible, as the super soft racing tyres are giving the car massive grip. Setting the front springs as low as possible, combined with high downforce, subjects the car to a phenomenon called "ground effects". This lets the car take extremely tight turns after elevation changes, but it also makes the car more difficult to control if you're not careful. Try these spring rates on Trial Mountain and you'll see what I mean when you get to the sharp left corner before the final straight. The stiff rear springs won't be affected though and will keep the car stable. You can set the front springs to 4.0+ to reduce the effect.

Ride height: this is the key setting that lets the Cappuccino keep up with the GT40's. GT2 has a glitch where setting the front height low and the rear height high boosts acceleration. The 'downside' of this is that you're moving the car's center of gravity forward, which makes the car more difficult to turn. Thankfully, the Cappuccino is barely affected by this, and still handles great.

Dampers: same as springs, 1 / 10 bounds and rebounds for max oversteer. GT2 dampers are broken. There's two ways to set up dampers: soft front / stiff rear for oversteer, or both sides soft to let the car handle bumps more easily. 2 / 2 bounds and rebounds work well, especially on PAL where 25 FPS physics make bumps more extreme. Personal preference.

Camber: 2.2 front is my go-to setting for most cars, seems to reduce understeer the most. I kept the rear camber at 1.0 as the Cappuccino didn't really need any extra grip in corners. Could be lowered to 0.5 to help the car turn even more, or raised if the car is losing grip easily.

Toe: another classic broken GT2 setting. -0.20 / 0.20 is my go-to for making pretty much any car turn more easily, for basically no downside from what I can tell.

Stabilisers: never noticed much of an extreme difference with stabiliser settings in this game, 3 / 5 is a go-to for me at this point.

Brake balance: The Cappuccino doesn't have much of an issue with braking stability, especially with the ride height settings, so this doesn't matter much, I just went with 24 / 22 and it seemed to work fine.

Gears: here we go. I couldn't really show this in the video without going through the whole process, but I did something called the 'gear trick' to give the car extremely close gears. The Cappuccino has a narrow power band at high-RPM's, which is why I drove in manual and geared up as late as possible for the best acceleration. Using Auto Setup 1 with a very fast final gear, then slowing down the final gear, gives you the best gear ratios for close gears. The gears in the video were set up with a less efficient method than the one I use now. To replicate them, set the final gear to 5.500, then set Auto Setup to 1, then set the final gear to 3.400, then set 1st through 5th to 2.531, 2.020, 1.590, 1.265, 0.985. The tricky bit is finding the right final gear that gives the car enough top speed without sacrificing the 1st gear launch, as the Cappuccino is only a 5-speed. I was almost hitting top speed on the long straights.

Downforce: max front and rear, pretty much no reason not to, unless the car has extreme understeer which lowering the rear downforce can help with.

LSD: I set Decel to 15 because I was having issues with the Cappuccino divebombing uncontrollably into corners with PAL 25 FPS physics. On a higher frame rate, I'd set this lower to let the car turn into corners more easily. I don't want the LSD to activate and cause understeer while accelerating, so the Initial and Accel are set to 1.

Hopefully that explains what was going on, and why the Cappuccino was punching above its weight. It's a surprisingly fast car, one of the best sub-197hp cars IMO.

Thank you for the detailed Cafe tuning breakdown. While some of the settings do seem, as you wrote, "weird" (unusual might be more accurate), they're certainly intriguing enough on their own and your generous addition of support material (the "why" of each setting) was edifying and your post has definitely inspired me to experiment with your settings hopefully en route to evoking a "punching above its weight" Suzuki Cappuccino leaving it up to my driving skill to master the GT40. Thanks again!

 

[michael_s_k]

I realize that it's really no big deal as for many readers the stealing of the checkered flag from the Historic Cup Rome Circuit GT40 is old news, but for the hopeful enjoyment and/or edification of any readers new to and interested in the idea of beating the GT40 I present the following humble summary of a recent GT40-dusting experience that will perhaps inspire a few neophyte drivers to come to grips with the GT40 :

I secured another win over the GT40, this time using the FTO GP Ver.R (another capable vehicle recommended by TeaKanji). This marks my fourth humble GT40 win with as many vehicles ('96 Mazda RX-7 RZ, '95 Impreza Wagon WRX STI Ver. II -Both on my 1st try - Honda S2000, and FTO GPR Ver. R).

After three initial failures w/the FTO GP and tweaking of a cpl settings, much to my delighted surprise I won race four in part by bump-passing on the first of the two final right turns and then (somehow, maybe the bump?) was able to maintain a high enough speed through the final turn and straightway to come in 1st w/out having to block the fast-approaching GT-40 for even a moment, finishing a humble .228 seconds ahead which is for me a new how-far-in-front-of-the-GT40-can-I-finish record, and not having to block the GT40 en route to the finish line was also a 1st. So, good times. And another thanks to our resident GT2 sensei TeaKanji for providing a list of capable GT40-killers, a set containing some vehicles, like the FTO, with which I had little prior experience.

I began this slaying the GT40 quest with the intent of acquiring the knowledge and skills required to defeat the GT40 and along the way ended up significantly deepening my total GT2-comprehension in a number of important areas, thanks in large part to TK's vehicle recommendations and tuning guidelines which on testing and tweaking helped align many windows in my mind so to speak allowing for a much more comprehensive understanding of many salient GT 2 mechanisms.

In short, the GT40 experience has, in addition to resulting in some amazing races, significantly increased my understanding of important GT 2 systems especially tuning. I urge drivers looking for a fun challenge and chance to expand their tuning and driving skills to take on the GT40 challenge. Thanks again TeaKanji for sharing your valuable and clearly hard-won GT 2 insights. And to anyone reviewing TeaKanji's tuning recommendations with some incredulousness and doubt, experiment with them and you'll soon discover their value not just as solid settings but as food for thought which will increase your comprehension of GT 2's tuning and other systems sufficiently enough to warrant or otherwise justify your interest.

EDIT: Still working out beating the GT40 using the tiny but venerable Suzuki Cappuccino (have come so f-cking close on so many occasions it's driving me quite mad) and at some point recently the idea popped into my head to try the Cooper Mini 1275S which required a massive amount of suspension experimentation to find the right combination of settings to increase oversteer satisfactorily as, like a number of other FF vehicles, the Mini, go-kart-maneuverable though it is, lacks sufficient oversteer to navigate Rome Circuit in a manner sufficient to defeat the GT40. In the past I'd found that oversteer was a problem with many cars and learned how to reduce it. Now I've learned how to increase it for the Mini 1275S which handles and tunes in a mildly idiosyncratic manner calling for considerable adjustment-test adjustment-re-adjust cycles. But well worth it as my understanding of how all the different tunings work and how well they play together to create a desired result. Point being, on accepting the GT40 I had no idea how much I was about to learn regarding modification, sure, but most especially tuning and finally, driving techniques. The world of GT is deep and GT2 is no exception. So for all those considering tackling the interesting GT40 challenge, I highly encourage you to do so as it will prove to be an entertaining, informative experience that grants players with near-magical powers of tuning and significantly-improved driving technique.

In short, you're going to get more than your effort's worth as you thrill to challenging races, acquiring exciting new skills, superior knowledge and an expanded vocabulary including racing-hip terms like "Scandinavian Flick" and many others and finally, besting the GT40 using a vehicle you might not have guessed at first glance to be capable of defeating the overpowered, perfectly-driven and often annoying GT40!

(Oh, and all this groovy loquaciousness is absolutely © 2022-2023 Michael S Kottler. If my humble words are useful enough to utilize elsewhere please just credit me and it'll be Kool and the Gang.)

 

[michael_s_k]

Hehe, thanks guys. Definitely don't consider myself a GT2 master though, at least not from a driving perspective. Glad the video helped out. Yeah, the settings I used are pretty weird, let me walk through them to attempt to de-mystify them:

Spring rates: went with 2.0 / 10.0 to go for as much oversteer as possible, as the super soft racing tyres are giving the car massive grip. Setting the front springs as low as possible, combined with high downforce, subjects the car to a phenomenon called "ground effects". This lets the car take extremely tight turns after elevation changes, but it also makes the car more difficult to control if you're not careful. Try these spring rates on Trial Mountain and you'll see what I mean when you get to the sharp left corner before the final straight. The stiff rear springs won't be affected though and will keep the car stable. You can set the front springs to 4.0+ to reduce the effect.

Ride height: this is the key setting that lets the Cappuccino keep up with the GT40's. GT2 has a glitch where setting the front height low and the rear height high boosts acceleration. The 'downside' of this is that you're moving the car's center of gravity forward, which makes the car more difficult to turn. Thankfully, the Cappuccino is barely affected by this, and still handles great.

Dampers: same as springs, 1 / 10 bounds and rebounds for max oversteer. GT2 dampers are broken. There's two ways to set up dampers: soft front / stiff rear for oversteer, or both sides soft to let the car handle bumps more easily. 2 / 2 bounds and rebounds work well, especially on PAL where 25 FPS physics make bumps more extreme. Personal preference.

Camber: 2.2 front is my go-to setting for most cars, seems to reduce understeer the most. I kept the rear camber at 1.0 as the Cappuccino didn't really need any extra grip in corners. Could be lowered to 0.5 to help the car turn even more, or raised if the car is losing grip easily.

Toe: another classic broken GT2 setting. -0.20 / 0.20 is my go-to for making pretty much any car turn more easily, for basically no downside from what I can tell.

Stabilisers: never noticed much of an extreme difference with stabiliser settings in this game, 3 / 5 is a go-to for me at this point.

Brake balance: The Cappuccino doesn't have much of an issue with braking stability, especially with the ride height settings, so this doesn't matter much, I just went with 24 / 22 and it seemed to work fine.

Gears: here we go. I couldn't really show this in the video without going through the whole process, but I did something called the 'gear trick' to give the car extremely close gears. The Cappuccino has a narrow power band at high-RPM's, which is why I drove in manual and geared up as late as possible for the best acceleration. Using Auto Setup 1 with a very fast final gear, then slowing down the final gear, gives you the best gear ratios for close gears. The gears in the video were set up with a less efficient method than the one I use now. To replicate them, set the final gear to 5.500, then set Auto Setup to 1, then set the final gear to 3.400, then set 1st through 5th to 2.531, 2.020, 1.590, 1.265, 0.985. The tricky bit is finding the right final gear that gives the car enough top speed without sacrificing the 1st gear launch, as the Cappuccino is only a 5-speed. I was almost hitting top speed on the long straights.

Downforce: max front and rear, pretty much no reason not to, unless the car has extreme understeer which lowering the rear downforce can help with.

LSD: I set Decel to 15 because I was having issues with the Cappuccino divebombing uncontrollably into corners with PAL 25 FPS physics. On a higher frame rate, I'd set this lower to let the car turn into corners more easily. I don't want the LSD to activate and cause understeer while accelerating, so the Initial and Accel are set to 1.

Hopefully that explains what was going on, and why the Cappuccino was punching above its weight. It's a surprisingly fast car, one of the best sub-197hp cars IMO.

Regarding ride height for the Cafe, I am in the process of experimenting with different front/back heights but am curious as to what settings you prefer.

 

[TeaKanji]

Regarding ride height for the Cafe, I am in the process of experimenting with different front/back heights but am curious as to what settings you prefer.

In GT2, min front height / max rear height 80-90% of the time, min front height / min rear height otherwise. It depends a lot on the car. Not every car gets a big acceleration boost from the 'ride height trick'; the Lancer Evo VI RS only saves, like, a tenth or two of a second in the 0-1000m, and it would prefer to have both heights low to improve steering response. If you make as much oversteer as possible with the other suspension settings, you can usually apply the trick without losing time in corners. Just need to test it in a 0-1000m first, then around the track.

Setting the front higher than the rear reduces acceleration in GT2, so you pretty much never want to do that, even though it makes the car turn more easily.

 

[michael_s_k]

In GT2, min front height / max rear height 80-90% of the time, min front height / min rear height otherwise. It depends a lot on the car. Not every car gets a big acceleration boost from the 'ride height trick'; the Lancer Evo VI RS only saves, like, a tenth or two of a second in the 0-1000m, and it would prefer to have both heights low to improve steering response. If you make as much oversteer as possible with the other suspension settings, you can usually apply the trick without losing time in corners. Just need to test it in a 0-1000m first, then around the track.

Setting the front higher than the rear reduces acceleration in GT2, so you pretty much never want to do that, even though it makes the car turn more easily.

Thank you for your prompt and highly informative reply to my ride height query. Highly informative!

 

[michael_s_k]

Just beat the GT40 using the Cooper Mini 1275 S Mk. I, an "exciting ride" (the phrase Polyphony uses so often in their vehicle descriptions).

I finished ahead of the GT40 by what is for me an astounding lead of +0.329. Had to tinker like mad with the suspension to establish the perfect understeer-killing settings and maximize oversteer which with this FF vehicle was tricky. But thanks to the lessons learned tuning the Cafe I at least understood the function of each suspension system along w/the LSD, etc. which significantly accelerated the process, and I really owe a debt of thanks to TeaKanji for so kindly sharing his Cappuccino settings which started me on the path toward full tuning comprehension. So, thanks again TeaKanji.

Btw, I felt like I required a break from the Cappuccino VS GT40 competition because: rapidly approaching insanity, and racing the Mini 1275S was just the kind of diversion I needed.

And now I return to my regularly-scheduled endless attempts to beat the GT40 using the Cappuccino. My settings are very close to TeaKanji's; I think I just need one great (free from driver error) race to achieve the coveted win utilising the Cafe.

Thoughts On FF vs FR Vehicles: On returning to the Cafe VS GT40 challenge after spending too much time learning the Mini 1275 well enough to secure the GT40 win, I was amazed by the Cafe's sweet oversteer and all-around far superior turning and cornering abilities, reinforcing past experiences and supporting the well-established consensus that FR vehicles possess superior cornering abilities. Well, never before have I experienced the difference in oversteer between FF and FR so strongly. Both cars are super light, very small and capable of increasing one's yields of feat beating the Goliaths of the road in the turns, but wow, the FF Mini's inability to generate the oversteer I coveted provided quite a contrast.

On GT In General: Gran Turismo in all its iterations is a dynamic, engaging and extremely rewarding game that fully deserves "The real driving simulator" label. Tremendous fun in all modes especially simulation and PvP and more than a little addictive. I have only played GT 1 through 4 (loved GT 4's graphics, btw. MY GF and I were both like, "Wow!" with eyes open wide in amazement at the lovely eye-candy the first time we fired GT 4 up), and everything I have observed, read and heard indicates that the other as-yet-unplayed-by-me Gran Turismo games are just as if not much more amazing. GT 7 seems as though it might be the best version of GT yet although I dislike the pay as you go model rather intensely and am curious as to GT 7 players experiences. Read they're releasing the VR mode upgrade for free which is as it should be. (Rant follows)

What happened to the days when you bought a game or other app for one price and that was it? Greed happened. I wish the new "junk fees" bill that President Biden just signed into law (putting a just and long-overdue stop to banking and other institutions greedy AF multiple BS extra charges for simple things including simply checking your account balance at an ATM, fees through which they've leeched trillions off we the people) included provisions to stop the subscription-only and endless micro transaction paradigm that has become the antagonistically greedy new corporate norm led by Microsoft, Electronic Arts, Adobe and others who decided why sell a standalone app that users own outright and is already fully-functional and complete when it's much more profitable to rent access to an application or service and in addition to a yearly renewal fee charge for additional content like updates containing desirable features whether we're talking gaming or general work and productivity apps.

It's all such a heaping pile of capitalism gone wild and profit uber alles, I don't know why app customers put up with it. Am I justified in experiencing disappointment with Sony/Polyphony for taking the pay to play path as it's blatantly self-serving in a way that's both disrespectful of players and morally questionable? Any opinions on GT 7's way of doing business? Is it as bad as I perceive or does downloadable content cost so little that it's nominal, or what? Do tell, please.

And yes, I do recall that this is a Beating the Pesky GT40 (Historic Car Cup, Rome Circuit) forum, not the "Even Sony is sticking it to its gamers" platform. A combination of passion and poignant annoyance got the better of me.

In any event, the GT40 challenge is definitely a path to glory thanks to the learning curve which increases driver knowledge and ability significantly and is a ultimately one of the best challenges in the game.

So if you're new to the idea of "dusting the GT40", buckle up as you're in for an extraordinarily fun, educational and gratifying driving experience.

Happy motoring!

 

[michael_s_k]

After many attempts I defeated the GT40 using the Suzuki Cappuccino and using an automatic transmission, no less! And the venerable Cafe ran the fastest lap of all the vehicles I've raced with in the Historic Car Cup's Rome Circuit event. I am including my suspension tuning for anyone interested. I believe that my suspension settings are almost identical to those recommended by TeaKanji as is my gear ratio setup. The big difference is my choice of LSD settings:

Initial: 10 Acceleration: 45 Deceleation: 40

Clearly I chose acceleration over handling and I definitely preferred the experience of racing using these settings instead of limiting or removing the acceleration and deceleration effects of LSD as several GT enthusiasts have recommended which is a strong strategy; I just enjoyed the additional speed.

Once I settled on this setup after testing scores of variations extensively victory was immediate and the race itself was definitely "an exciting ride", an apic monster of a GT competition that I'm for sure pleased with. Thanks again to TeaKanji for starting this gratifying process of gaining comprehensive and working knowledge of modification, tuning and driving techniques in GT 2. I have been able to successfully apply tuning lessons learned here to other vehicles in other events and it's extremely gratifying to be able to effect positive performance results via tuning and greater driving proficiency.

In short, I finally defeated the nefarious GT40 using the Suzuki Cappuccino and the process in getting there was as edifying as it was challenging and entertaining.

 

[michael_s_k]

On visiting the site today I happily noticed that it appears to have returned to normal functioning in that all posts are visible and contained within two web pages with static URLs as opposed to its earlier undesirable generation of a new URL each time a post was added. So, cool.

 

[TeaKanji]

I went back to this race again to see if it was possible with the Cappuccino without racing modifications, and indeed it was...

 

[michael_s_k]

Good show, TeaKanji and bravo. At first I misread your post as "without modifications" and my reaction was one of shocked disbelief. Then I watched the video, re-read your missive and felt less incredulous lol. Now I feel compelled, nay, inspired to match your daring feat. Perhaps this has no bearing here, but I have noticed that certain cars, due to weight issues, fare better as their non-race-modified selves. Case in point: the TVR Tuscan Speed 12. With the non-(R) version traction is vastly improved thanks to that extra 100+ pounds and given the 12's "unlimited power" acceleration and top speed differences are nominal. Btw, I'd like to thank you again for your sage Cappuccino guidance which started me on a long and continuing journey of improving my vehicle operation, modification and tuning knowledge leading to many a fun racing experience replete with a variety of cool new challenges. But I digress. Again, amazing work on your part in besting the Historical Car Rome Circuit GT40 sans race modification, TeaKanji. And thanks for posting your bold achievement for the hardcore GT 2 world to share.

I went back to this race again to see if it was possible with the Cappuccino without racing modifications, and indeed it was...

 

[TeaKanji]

Perhaps this has no bearing here, but I have noticed that certain cars, due to weight issues, fare better as their non-race-modified selves. Case in point: the TVR Tuscan Speed 12. With the non-(R) version traction is vastly improved thanks to that extra 100+ pounds and given the 12's "unlimited power" acceleration and top speed differences are nominal.

Glad you enjoyed it. That's an interesting point you raise; the lowered weight can reduce traction slightly. Still, I think that gear setup can fix traction issues for pretty much every car in the game, especially the Speed 12. If you're struggling with the racing modified Speed 12, here's my tune for it:

springs: 3.8 / 4.6
ride height: 85 / 105
dampers (B + R): 2 / 8
camber: 3.6 / 1.0
toe: -0.20 / 0.20
stabilisers: 4 / 4

gears: final gear to 5.500, then auto setup to 4, then final gear to 2.500, then set individual gears to 2.685, 1.955, 1.620, 1.350, 1.129, 0.959

downforce: 0.78 / 0.99
LSD (I, A, D): 30, 30, 1

Max out the rear height if you want, though it'll just make the car understeer more on corner entry. Between 3.5 and 4.0 front camber and 30 LSD initial makes a huge difference for corner exit stability. You can leave Decel. to 1 since the car handles fine entering corners, as the ride height is moving the car's center of gravity forward. The soft springs help greatly on bumpy tracks, the Speed 12 can cruise through curbs and dips (I tested this tune on Autumn Ring, where the second half can throw your car off if its springs are too stiff).

The absolutely crucial thing though, is to never use 1st gear. 2nd gear will be slow enough that the Speed 12 can launch and exit hairpins without kicking out, so drive in manual and keep the car in 2nd around tight corners. Hope that helps out.

Edit: also, make sure to switch to super softs, as normals are equipped by default.