I hate PP

[FRR35H]

Seriously, it's annoying me. Can someone please tell me what the benefit of it is?
To me it seems like a measurment for noobs who don't know how to work out if their car can beat another certain car. We have HP and Weight and we also have POWER-WEIGHT ratio listings on all cars. So WHY do we need this Performance Point measurement that is simply annoying to real car enthusiasts like myself?
I can understand that PD put it in due to "popular demand" but why is it now made the standard measurement for car performance?
It's not a realistic measurement either. I mean, I don't go down to my local tuner and say "Can you please Dyno tune my car and tell me what PP it has.". You will sound like an idiot.

This isn't a rant thread, I just want answers to WHAT is so good about it and why is it always flashed in my face and I can't switch it off!

 

[Aween]

i hate it too
i dont get it and i dont really care about it
it just annoying me when i do up a car and its the PP instead of the HP so annoying

 

[Gamerwillz]

Eh, don't really know why you hate it.

Looking at BHP of the car to get competitive race is not a good idea. That car could be lightweight...

That is what PP is for.

 

[Exorcet]

We have HP and Weight and we also have POWER-WEIGHT ratio listings on all cars. So WHY do we need this Performance Point measurement

No offense, but that sounds very "noob".

It's not a realistic measurement either. I mean, I don't go down to my local tuner and say "Can you please Dyno tune my car and tell me what PP it has.". You will sound like an idiot.

You would sound like an idiot if you claimed to have an idea for a race series that would promote close racing, and it turned out your only rule was a power/weight limit. Of course people outside of GT won't know what PP is, but every race is regulated by PP in some form. They restrict the the aerodynamics, transmission, tires, etc. If they didn't, races would be very predictable. Every car would have the best HP/lb permitted, but the guys with the most money would win by 20 laps (well, I guess it happens even now sometimes) since their cars would corner better, accelerate faster, and reach higher top speed.

Power/weight is a terrible way to measure a car's performance because it tells you almost nothing. Put a 500 hp engine in a shopping cart, and it's not going to touch a Mini on bald tires. The shopping cart wouldn't be able to turn without falling over, and it doesn't even have brakes. The fact that the hp/lb is practically infinite doesn't do it any good. And if you want a less extreme example

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/dodge_viper_srt-10_acr.html

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/dodge_viper_srt-10_600hp.html

 

[blue_thunder]

Eh, don't really know why you hate it.

Looking at BHP of the car to get competitive race is not a good idea. That car could be lightweight...

That is what PP is for.

But the OP makes a point of saying that knowing what the power-weight ratio of a car is, makes the PP system redundant. Which is partially true. Though this system obviously doesn't take suspension setup into account - which PP does or at least should do.

I honestly don't mind the PP system - but I understand why it can be seen as insulting/noobish.

I just wish it wouldn't flash up every second when I'm trying to look at my new BHP figures in the tuning shop. Really annoying. They should increase the delay between alternations.

 

[maSonn09]

It's so that you can have fairly matched races.
A race between a tuned Prius and a Lotus Elise with the same HP is hardly fair. PP was introduced so that you could have a race against an Elise and a Semi tuned Elan.

Would certainly benefit street car leagues.

 

[gt2 pwnz]

Horsepower, or power to weight ratio isn't everything.
Handling is also very important.
The stats will not let you see that, but the PP might.

 

[analog]

Power to weight ratio alone doesn't take into account other factors like downforce, tyres, etc. and power to weight ratio alone isn't always a good measurement, for example a Caterham and Bugatti Veyron could have the same power to weight ratio, although the Caterham would probably win on a short and twisty track whilst we all know which would be the winner at SSR7.

The PP system (despite some current flaws) is the best way to get close and evenly matched races online since in real races you also have regulations (which also take into account much more than power to weight ratio alone) which may not be referred to as PP obviously but effectively work the same way.

Don't know all the factors taken into account (the handling characteristics of a specific car perhaps) but I'm glad it's finally implemented.
It's giving you the option to choose what you reckon to be important in a given event, want better grip in the corners? choose better tyres, more downforce but then add some weight perhaps or lose some power.
Want more speed on a long straight? More power, less downforce but maybe lesser tyres, etc., etc.

It's a clever balancing act which if done correctly shows a much higher understanding of car set up and race strategy than the rather noobish horsepower and weight limits.
It's even very amusing to see others getting it totally wrong and spinning off in the first corner with their overpowered lightweight cars on "inferior" tyres they can't handle.

 

[grymey]

I liked it better when PP took tires into account.

 

[dtn23]

If you hate PP, then you should look into a VG 👍

Edit: or maybe a VJ

 

[Gamerwillz]

I liked it better when PP took tires into account.

Me too.

I have absolutely no idea why PD removed it.

 

[FRR35H]

Thank you for the people who actually understand where I am coming from.

Alot of you keep bringing up the fact that "it factors in tyres and suspension and brakes and the amount of donuts the driver ate in the morning". Fair enough, but this is a REAL DRIVING simulator after all. In RL, when I pull up in my 400+HP GTO and rock up next to my friends 400+HP Holden SS Commodore, I don't know that I will exactly smoke him because the whole tuning of one car to another is different. Power to Weight ratio, suspension and all that taken into account. Theres no PP listing on our cars so that we know just how fair it is.
I say its noobish because, obviously people are going to go around and race there 700PP cars against the 600pp cars cause they are now 100% sure that they will win, where as before all they had was the power/weight ratios and torque and all the other relevant information that a tuner will need in RL to determine the odds.
It is VERY annoying that it needs to FLASH in your face in the Tuner Shop and the UCD and just about everywhere you would usually find the normal specs of the car.

 

[GTShadowKing]

If you hate PP, then you should look into a VG 👍

Edit: or maybe a VJ

I'm sorry mate, but what is VG? And VJ?
You can kick my arse if this is a "noob" question...

 

[freedomweasel]

Fact of the matter is PP tells you more than power to weight.
It was added to the game to make it easier to have close races.

If that's "noobish", "fake", and "not like real life", so be it. You seem very offended they added another number to the screen. You could just ignore it, or you could use it as an extra piece of information to be utilized in the tuning process.

 

[GTShadowKing]

Fact of the matter is PP tells you more than power to weight.
It was added to the game to make it easier to have close races.

If that's "noobish", "fake", and "not like real life", so be it. You seem very offended they added another number to the screen. You could just ignore it, or you could use it as an extra piece of information to be utilized in the tuning process.

👍

 

[SmokingCones]

The PP system is pretty flawed. There's too much emphasis put on the weight of the car (look how high cars like the gsxr4 and Elise are ranked), some results seems pretty odd (Ferrari 330P4: 724 PP, Toyota GT-one: 722 PP) and it doesn't take in consideration the track (Daytona <> Côte d'Azur)

I know the PP system was quite praised on GT prologue (never played it), but for me it doesn't add anything to the game. It's simply not reliable enough as a tool to make something useful of it.

 

[freedomweasel]

The PP system is pretty flawed. There's too much emphasis put on the weight of the car (look how high cars like the gsxr4 and Elise are ranked), some results seems pretty odd (Ferrari 330P4: 724 PP, Toyota GT-one: 722 PP) and it doesn't take in consideration the track (Daytona <> Côte d'Azur)

I know the PP system was quite praised on GT prologue (never played it), but for me it doesn't add anything to the game. It's simply not reliable enough as a tool to make something useful of it.

It doesn't take the track into account, which is a bummer, but as a stand alone number it's much better than power to weight.

 

[FRR35H]

Fact of the matter is PP tells you more than power to weight.
It was added to the game to make it easier to have close races.

If that's "noobish", "fake", and "not like real life", so be it. You seem very offended they added another number to the screen. You could just ignore it, or you could use it as an extra piece of information to be utilized in the tuning process.

I'm sorry how do you ignore something that flashes at the rate of a blink of an eye?
You said it yourself "to make it easier". Easier for who? The people who understand cars and perfomance figures surely wouldn't need this. I don't. My friends all feel the same. We're car enthusiasts too. Mechanics some of us. Not one of us can see how PP makes for a REALISTIC measurement.
I didn't buy this game to have it easy. I bought this game because I love how GT challenges you. I love the fact that when I start a race, the grid can be completely spontanious and that I will have to battle my way to the end because there will be that odd car that will out perform me and it will be down to me to out drive the AI.

 

[Exorcet]

this is a REAL DRIVING simulator after all.

Yes (at least they claim), but that doesn't mean PP doesn't fit.

In RL, when I pull up in my 400+HP GTO and rock up next to my friends 400+HP Holden SS Commodore, I don't know that I will exactly smoke him because the whole tuning of one car to another is different.

If the two of you were to random people meeting at a stop light, sure.

If the two of you had entered some amateur race event, then no. You would have had to deal with PP. The rules could have banned slick tires, rear wings, and non manual transmissions. The rules would have set a PP that you two would have aimed for, and if you turned your cars right, you'd each be more or less equal.

I say its noobish because, obviously people are going to go around and race there 700PP cars against the 600pp cars cause they are now 100% sure that they will win

This is obvious? Where is the proof that this is happening? And why does it matter? Also, before PP, all you had to do was enter a race car in a road car event. Or just run better tires than the AI.

It is VERY annoying that it needs to FLASH in your face in the Tuner Shop and the UCD and just about everywhere you would usually find the normal specs of the car.

I bet people who want to know their PP find it helpful. You don't, so don't look at it I guess.

The people who understand cars and perfomance figures surely wouldn't need this. I don't.

You admitied that you do need it. You just said you wouldn't be able to tell if your car or your friend's car was better. PP tells you. Also, I doubt very much that you can extrapolate the performance of a car with extreme precision from regular stats in the game (you said this too).

 

[freedomweasel]

I'm sorry how do you ignore something that flashes at the rate of a blink of an eye?
You said it yourself "to make it easier". Easier for who? The people who understand cars and perfomance figures surely wouldn't need this. I don't. My friends all feel the same. We're car enthusiasts too. Mechanics some of us. Not one of us can see how PP makes for a REALISTIC measurement.
I didn't buy this game to have it easy. I bought this game because I love how GT challenges you. I love the fact that when I start a race, the grid can be completely spontanious and that I will have to battle my way to the end because there will be that odd car that will out perform me and it will be down to me to out drive the AI.

Well, I'm glad you and your friends are "real car enthusiasts" and don't need the extra information.
On the other hand, you'd rather everyone else have a harder time matching up cars for a race?
Ignore it and let people who don't know as much about cars have a better time with the game. The reality is that you are no the main audience of the game. Do car enthusiasts buy this game? Absolutely. Are most GT5 owners serious car enthusiasts? Not a chance. One look into the Q&A or tuning forum will show you that.

If you and I wanted to have a close online race (assume we have equal driving skill), how would you determine if my car had (close to) equal performance to yours? We don't know each other, you don't know what parts I have on my car, all you know is the horsepower and weight.

 

[FRR35H]

Yes (at least they claim), but that doesn't mean PP doesn't fit.


If the two of you were to random people meeting at a stop light, sure.

If the two of you had entered some amateur race event, then no. You would have had to deal with PP. The rules could have banned slick tires, rear wings, and non manual transmissions. The rules would have set a PP that you two would have aimed for, and if you turned your cars right, you'd each be more or less equal.


This is obvious? Where is the proof that this is happening? And why does it matter? Also, before PP, all you had to do was enter a race car in a road car event. Or just run better tires than the AI.



I bet people who want to know their PP find it helpful. You don't, so don't look at it I guess.



You admitied that you do need it. You just said you wouldn't be able to tell if your car or your friend's car was better. PP tells you. Also, I doubt very much that you can extrapolate the performance of a car with extreme precision from regular stats in the game (you said this too).

I never said I "NEEDED" it. Point out where I said I did.
Again, not look at it? It flashes so fast that you have no choice but to look at it!

In online races it happens all the time.
People will just look at the PP of someone elses car and choose something higher. Where as before you would need to use good judgement to be competitive.

 

[Devedander]

PP goes much further than power weight ratio and is a a generally useful tool to keep a group of significantly different cars within a competitive window. While it's easy to say an Evo and an STI are close competitors, what would you have to do to an formula race car to make it roughly competitive with tuned GTR? That's some pretty complex figuring to do and guess what? Thanks to PP I manage to head into races where such matchups occur and the results are suprisingly close. I don't know how one can deny the value of PP with results like that...

Things that I think get factored in are things like drivetrain and aero and possily even torque curve all of which make the competition closer.

All I know is that after PP came into effect and I ran PP rooms, most races were very close and baring poor drivers and accidents the pack tended to remain fairly close, whereas before with just hp and weight limits you constantly had a car or two that tore ahead of the pack and some that just were getting slaughtered.

For me PP has generally allowed for some of the closest racing outside makers races amongst a wide group of people.

I am sure some real gearheads could get together and figure out closer races than just matching pp, but I have found that in general as long as everyones car meets the pp requirements (and with balast and engine restrictors it's often doable) the races tend to have some really good competition in them.

Sure you would look silly if you went into a garage and talked PP becuase it's a system that exists solely in the game... you would also look silly if you told the car shop you wanted a stage 3 engine tune and only wanted to pay 20,000 Cr for it or if you said you have been practicing karting at the track and can't wait until you get 300 more XP becuase then you can move up to driving NASCAR.

But just because PP doesn't exist in real life doesn't mean it's a bad idea... in fact if it was feasible to do in real life it might well prove a very good thing to have...

As was stated a version of PP already exists but it's not nearly as flexible as PP in the game: races often restrict multple features of cars to bring them into a close "PP" range if you will. When aero, weight, displacement, drivetrain etc are all limited you essentilaly boil it down to what a PP range would be.

So the point of PP is to try and distill the complex and often interdependant aspects of performance down to a simple number so that any old Joe stands a chance of figuring out where his cars fit in terms of competitiveness.

It's far from perfect, but in my experience at least, it's been GREAT for keeping online races close and competitive.

 

[analog]

PP isn't perfect but it's far better than just putting a limit on horsepower and weight as it takes more factors into account making for example a room dedicated to roadcars less likely to be cleaned by someone using a racecar with the same power and weight restrictions but with other factors like downforce giving him or her a clear advantage.

It doesn't mean that different cars with similar performance points are equal either, in fact it doesn't even mean that the same cars with the same amount of PP are equal, that's what's nice about this system, it let's you decide how to implement it and how to use it on a specific track, there's a PP maximum for each car when fully tuned, it isn't a fixed number however.

 

[BoneSawTX]

In online races it happens all the time.
People will just look at the PP of someone elses car and choose something higher. Where as before you would need to use good judgement to be competitive.

That sounds like the room didn't have a PP limit if everyone is just one upping each other.

 

[Exorcet]

I never said I "NEEDED" it. Point out where I said I did.

You said you wouldn't be able to tell if your car or your friend's car was fast. So obviously, if you wanted to have a close race, you'd need something to tell you the performance of each car. In other words PP. Whether or not you used the word "need" doesn't matter. What's important is that you indicated that you had such a need.

But OK, if I read your paragraph wrong, and you don't need something to estimate car performance, then what is the dilemma in the 400 hp GTO vs 400 hp Holden? You seem to claim that you know enough about cars to tell what's even and what's not.

In online races it happens all the time.
People will just look at the PP of someone elses car and choose something higher. Where as before you would need to use good judgement to be competitive.

Or, before you would just need to add more horsepower. Or downforce. Or tires. Right now, the host can set the room to 600 pp, and pick a 600 pp car. So can everyone else. Then it's down to their good judgement when it comes time to race.

 

[Kayoss]

I never said I "NEEDED" it. Point out where I said I did.
Again, not look at it? It flashes so fast that you have no choice but to look at it!

In online races it happens all the time.
People will just look at the PP of someone elses car and choose something higher. Where as before you would need to use good judgement to be competitive.

How is this different from someone going into a race and picking a car that have a higher horsepower.

PP is a good implementation to level the playing field for those who want to play fair. Horsepower and weight mean s#@t in real life racing if you dont have the right setup such as downforce, tires, tuning, etc... without those, all you have is a rocket that can only go fast on a straight, but needs a turn radius the size of texas.

If I was to have a fair race which requires driving skills I will like to know how my car stacks up to my opponent when it comes to tuning, parts, etc... Yeah I can easily pick a car base on horsepower that doesnt mean I will beat him because my horsepower is higher. You can take the PP system as an annoyance or try to make the best of it. Of course as many here have mentioned, its flawed but nothing is perfect.

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Here is a good example of a dilemma that PP solve. Eg I host a match set the power limit to 300HP and the weight to 1000kgs. I enter a 1.5L car that meets the stats, where as the other guy will say " right I'm just going to choose a better car then he is using" and picks a 3L V6 that otherwise meets the stats. If you know anything about anything you will know the 1.5L will not be competitive.

I host Production car races with 100HP limits so as be able to use as many cars as possible. However you can guarantee if I try a 200HP limit race every noob and his dog will pick the Elise making all other cars redundant. Now I can set a PP limit as well which keeps the car match ups close and means I don't have to argue with every noob who comes along about how and why he is attempting to exploit the field.

Granted seeing PP alternating on screen with power or weight when your tuning is annoying but outside of that that only people who would be unhappy with PP are those who play to win through exploitation of others and their knowledge. I used to get it all the time. Every joker who came along would claim innocence and it was just a coincidence they happen to keep picking cars that invalidate the field. Yeah nice try, I'm not stupid, I know what beats what I simply choose to race in cars I like and enjoy as opposed to picking the best option for victory. Now with PP we all can too without worrying about the noob who comes in and forces a one car race because his car choice goes something like Elise, NSX type R/ Rx7, Ferrari 430, 458/ Skyline GTR, Ford GT40/ Zonda/ Veyron depending on the HP limits.

Another couple of aspects Power and weight limits don't take account of is how and where in the RPM range the engine makes its power and how much torque it produces.

 

[Welsh-Fury]

Yes, the PP system "Seems" flawed, but isn't it why the HP/Weight restrictions are still included? That way someone's performance can't just be based off HP on races such as Daytona and vice-versa with road tracks?