I lost 32hp with Engine Balancing!!

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I thought the Corolla Sportivo was just a rubbish Corolla with some wheels and interior trim. I didn't hear anything at all about it being a 141kW Toyota road rocket.

LOL I used the words Toyota and road rocket in the same sentence...

Seriously, as far as I know the RUNX is completely different to our Sportivo, but I could be wrong. A 180 horsepower Corolla? In Australia? Hmmmm.

But getting back to the thread, 32hp wasn't technically 'lost'. To be serious, I think the fitment of a semi-racing exhaust instead of a full race one only costs you 4hp.
 
I thought the Corolla Sportivo was just a rubbish Corolla with some wheels and interior trim. I didn't hear anything at all about it being a 141kW Toyota road rocket.
There were two versions of it. The original was the 7A-FE motor with a TOM's turbo kit giving it 115Kw from factory but quick enough to get a 15.4 on the 1/4. The 2nd is the RUNX, rebadged as the next gen Sportivo. The reason you thought it was wheels and trim is because not many are actually worked.

LOL I used the words Toyota and road rocket in the same sentence...
I actually own a Cressida that proves they go in the same sentence. Got Twin Turbo 1JZ?? ;)

Seriously, as far as I know the RUNX is completely different to our Sportivo, but I could be wrong. A 180 horsepower Corolla? In Australia? Hmmmm.
Check out the normal classifieds (Trading Post, Drive, carsales, etc.) and search for Sportivo Corolla and you'll see them.

But getting back to the thread, 32hp wasn't technically 'lost'. To be serious, I think the fitment of a semi-racing exhaust instead of a full race one only costs you 4hp.
No, it WAS lost. Read my initial post. Before the engine balancing the supercharged figure was 319hp, after it was performed it was 287hp. That works out as a 32hp loss!! Others have backed this up on BOTH formats so it's a fact. End of story. :cool:
 
here's my thoughts. number one, the guys in the 85 cc class, would that be a two cycle engine? cause there's your answer, they DO need backpressure because when the exhaust is shaped right it has a supercharging effect. ever seen a dirtbike with a kidney shaped exhaust pipe? it's a tuned backpressure creator, has to do with the engine having two strokes, i can explain in detail if necessary.

number two, the engine balancing (assuming it's not a glitch) combined with super charging, well just think about it.. Hp is a function of rpm and torque, engine balancing increases rpm range, increasing HP (maybe). if the engine has max TORQUE at 5000 rpm, and you balance it and the torque peak goes to 5500 but the same amount of ft/lbs, you have more hp. now, supercharging doesn't need the engine balancing because it's all about low engine speeds, which is why it produces torque low in the rpm range, which gives you less hp for your torque. if the game equates an engine balance with an increase in max torque peak rpm, but engine supercharging with a decrease in the torque peak rpm, that would explain the loss in hp, you have conflicting modifications. I highly doubt that polyphony takes into account engine rotating mass, they likely just use the engine balancing as x amount of increase in torque peak rpm, and the supercharging as a decrease in rpm and increase in total torque, by moving the peak torque up but decreasing torque at the peak, it may calculate out as less peak hp. it's not a perfect answer but i find it likely
 
No, it WAS lost. Read my initial post. Before the engine balancing the supercharged figure was 319hp, after it was performed it was 287hp. That works out as a 32hp loss!! Others have backed this up on BOTH formats so it's a fact. End of story. :cool:

How can that be fact? I've fitted a semi-racing exhaust, engine balancing and a supercharger and not lost any power at all.

Matter of fact, I've ended up with significantly MORE power than your so-called 287bhp max. How come I can get 326bhp out of my Corolla and you can only get 287? I have S/C and balancing done, I just leave out the full racing exhaust, so in theory, it's the exhaust that's causing the problem, not the engine balancing.

Try modding it all out without the racing exhaust system and you won't lose any power at all. What you're saying is that engine balancing costs you 32hp which it doesn't in any instance of modification EXCEPT when mated to a racing exhaust...

So is the balancing the problem or is it the exhaust? In my opinion, it's the exhaust that costs you power. Not the other way around. I should start a thread saying "Racing Exhaust Cost Me 4HP!"
 
If you did make a thread, it wouldn't be the only car that did it that way would it. ;)

And as for your 326hp, what's your list of parts?? I want to replicate it myself.
 
Fit everything except the racing exhaust. Switch the racing exhaust for a semi-racing exhaust and you'll end up with 326bhp!

Hey, BTW, are you a real grease monkey?

Oh and by the way, you were RIGHT about the Sportivo Corolla! 141kW! My god, I had no idea that they were being sold in Oz! Great to know because I thought that the nuts who were pulling up alongside me at the lights in these things with HKS's weren't for real.

"Are you serious? A Corolla? You gotta be joking me mate..."

Looks like they weren't kidding after all, hehehe!

;)
 
Aero_Hdt, in general, any forced induction (be it turbo or supercharging) needs as free a flowing exhaust as possible. NA has better results with thinner exhausts due to building the backpressure that's sometimes needed to enhance atmo pressures. And lot's of supercharged motors can hit 9-10k after being fully worked. ;)

No, NA cars still want as little backpressure as possible.

It's just that they don't produce as much exhaust gas as FI cars, and therefore a smaller exhaust is needed to maintain velocity and scavenging.
 
I have been told by numerous people in my car club that it's turbo cars that need as little backpressure as possible. N/A and supercharged need some backpressure in order to function properly. Exhaust size is also dependent on power levels.

I still run stock sized exhaust on my mildly modded supercharged car.
 
the guys in the 85 cc class, would that be a two cycle engine? cause there's your answer, they DO need backpressure because when the exhaust is shaped right it has a supercharging effect.
It indeed is a two stroke engine and I certainly know that the backpressure is needed to get the most out of it as I worked with the cars for several years. The post was written to prove RJ wrong and I think we've accomplished it now. The quote in question for those who haven't seen it.
Nothing ever NEEDS backpressure, wants backpressure, or likes backpressure.
 
Wow. Guys, it's like this: It's never the back PRESSURE that helps. When smaller exhausts are delivering more power, it's because air is a spring and has weight and velocity and momentum and pipes have resonance...

So when you have loads of low end torque on a smaller pipe, it's not because the pipe is PRODUCING MORE PRESSURE, it's because the pipe shows resonant behavior and is sucking (scavenging) the exhaust out of the cylinders. The whole system is a huge resonant behavior, not a simple 'flow resistance'. The actual 'flow resistance' is never good, but you cannot totally destroy the resonant behavior of the system in attempts to have less flow resistance...

I know this not because of being a mechanic but because I'm a sound engineer with years of experience designing speaker enclosures... the phenomenon is not unlike trying to get the most loudness out of a bass reflex enclosure, you don't simply use larger and larger pipes or all your LOW END will be destroyed and the peak reinforcement will move upwards in frequency- just as the power peak moves upwards in RPM as you make the frequencies of the resonant system higher.

And smaller pipes have LOWER frequency resonances at the same length than larger ones- but way more flow resistance at the same time. You try to get away from the flow resistance (w. larger pipes you quickly do that) but as the pipes get larger and larger, the resonant behavior goes up very quickly. With a pipe big enough it's like there isn't any resonant behavior at all- like it's an open header into a large box.

You never want BACKPRESSURE, but you can't have this torque-giving resonant behavior without also accepting some backpressure. You could have a big vacuum cleaner on the tailpipe and suck ALL the backpressure away, and if the exhaust resonance was able to give you serious torque it would STILL be giving you even more low-end torque with the vacuum cleaner there. No backpressure, but still all the resonance.

Or if you had a crazily powerful vacuum cleaner on the exhaust port you'd be golden- always maximum scavenging and suction out of the exhaust ports. No such thing, though- but if there was, that would be the open-headers full torque fix.

The thing is, when you're setting up a resonance in a tuned pipe, the high pressure waves are matched by LOW pressure waves. You send a pulse of pressurized exhaust down the header pipe and exhaust, it goes shooting off and the valve closes and the momentum of the air continues but now the valve is shut. Depending on the size of the pipe, it will take some time for the air to reverse itself and come to equilibrium. If the pipe isn't large, there's still negative pressure at the valve when it opens again, aiding the start of the next pulse. If the pipe is huge, the air reverses itself really fast and there's equilibrium when the valve opens, not suction.

Sorry... it drives me crazy when I see this argument come up and people say things that are confusions- it's not about the back pressure at all, but you CANNOT just have open headers and low end torque too. You're stuck with some back pressure when you do it right, that's all.

Maybe there should be a big vacuum cleaner mod- so you can have no back pressure but still have smaller pipes for maximal low end torque ;)
 
Oh yeah- and in theory it's possible to keep raising the resonant frequency until it's higher than the max RPM of the engine no matter what that is- it's not just 'moving power higher in the RPM band', you can even go past that so you don't even get power at redline, much less below it.

Also, I seriously doubt turbo cars don't need 'backpressure'. All that's happening there is, the only parts of the exhaust affecting the system are before the turbo- after the turbo, it could be anything and won't matter, because the turbo obliterates any resonant behavior anyhow. Open headers after the turbocharger are just dandy. But you would still get major torque boosts BEFORE the turbocharger by having a header system with resonances low enough to affect the engine.

I don't know how many turbo cars have this- surely a lot of them have virtually no header between valve and turbocharger. But you could- you could have a huge header and exhaust that fully reinforced low-end torque, and a turbocharger at the end of that, and you'd have huge huge low-end torque (and incredible turbo lag from the long air 'spring' between engine and turbo).
 
Actually, the expansion pipes on two strokes create a supercharging effect by creating negative pressure in the exhaust... The opposite of backpressure. ;)

EDIT: Aimed at Greycap.
 
Two strokes are EXTREMELY finicky, yes. I heard something about the smallest difference or off in the design of the expansion pipes will screw you over on about 10hp on the drag snowmobiles.
 
LOL, I'm waaaay out of my depth here, but anyways it's a bit of fun.

1: I don't know how similar soundwaves and exhaust gasses are. I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but would an exhaust technician listen to an audio installer? Or would an audio installer listen to an exhaust engineer?

2: The ideal situation for 'no backpressure' would be 'no exhaust', but as far as I know, cars with no headers develop less power than those with them.

I know a guy who runs a 3.5 inch exhaust on his VN which developed 210hp at the wheels and the dyno tech told him that his exhaust was too large. The exhaust shop told him the same thing and told him a smaller pipe after the resonator would help and after fitting a 3" dump pipe, he took it back to the dyno and it developed 214hp at the wheels. Both the dyno tech and exhaust tech told him that he needed backpressure to develop more torque and power and it worked...

💡
 
They didn't add backpressure. 3" single exhaust flows about the same or better than 2.5" duals, and that's usually more than enough for most decent V8s to run through with minimal restriction (provided it's a straight pipe setup).

The 3.5" pipe WAS too big. Absolutely no velocity. And that's the same reason you make more power with headers than without... Velocity and thereby scavenging. Didn't necessarily add backpressure (at least not in the engine's operating range).
 
This is a really good debate over something that there is a 95% chance has nothing to do with what we are seeing in the game. Seriously, this could be taken to the cars in General Forum.

That being said, it is quite interesting, so continue.
 
LOL Toronado!

Sounds like we're splitting hairs here. I give up.

:sick:

By the way, Toro, can't wait for GT5 to feature a real FWD car... I'd love to see a Toronado in Gran Turismo, hehe. Might give those Honda buzzboxes something to think about eh?

👍
 
always Look At The Hp Gained/lost!!! Do Not Buy If You Lose Hp

So insightful, is there any more wisdom you have to impart?? :odd: *insert sarcasm emoticon here*

Next time read the methods I used in the first post and see that I didn't BUY it to lose horsepower.

AERO_HDT, I haven't had a chance to test your list of purchased parts. Can anyone in the tuning crews jump onto in the meantime?? :)
 
i never fit the engine balancing anyway
too expensive for such little change
 
Aldo001:If your really not on a budget when it comes to tuning a car then port polish+engine balancing is good.The give a extra 20+ hp for most cars and every little helps:tup:

edit:200posts:)
 
It's been a looooooong while since I last touched the Corolla, and I wanted to build one up for some FF fun....so I decided to delve into that little engine balancing problem. I looked at all the combinations and discovered that it was actually the Racing Exhaust in combination with Supercharging that was causing all my problems from before, not the engine balancing. I went off the following methods to narrow it down.

Supercharging > Engine Balancing > Chip/P&P > No exhaust = hp increase
Supercharging > Engine Balancing > Chip/P&P > Semi-Racing Exhaust = Most increased hp (326hp)
Supercharging > Engine Balancing > Chip/P&P > Racing Exhaust = hp decrease (287hp)

I then tried the same things with a Stage 2 turbo with results as follows:
S2 Turbo > Engine Balancing = hp increase
S2 Turbo > Engine Balancing > Semi-Racing Exhaust = hp increases more
S2 Turbo > Engine Balancing > Racing Exhaust = hp increases more still. (309hp)

So, if you do supercharge your corolla, beware of fitting the racing exhaust, as compared to the semi-racing exhaust you will LOSE 39hp!! :eek:

Heaps more power lost (that's an extra 20%) than I originally thought, but it atleast solves the puzzle once and for all.
 
I'm sorry man, had I know you were going through that, I would have pointed out that the racing exhaust fitted with superchargers lower the maximum hp in some cars :nervous:
 
Oh I already knew about the Semi-Racing/Racing problem from the Caterham. The Corolla was the first 'mass' produced car I found that had the same issue. But whereas the others have say a 2-5hp difference, this ended up being 39hp.

I didn't pick up on it being the racing exhaust/supercharger combination because I always did my exhausts first when tuning so I knew where I was going on my tune. Since that issue, it's changed to all engine parts first now (P&P, EB & chip) then exhaust if there's no supercharger option.

That's why I originally thought it was 32hp and blamed it incorrectly on the engine balancing, but when it was done to the formulas I displayed in the first two pages, it was proven by others who tested this that I was technically right. It's just I went the wrong way about fixing my issue and it's been buried in my head like a tick for months and I wanted it out of the way, once and for all!! :D
 
I believe the C1 Corvette has the same problem. I know there are a couple of other normal production cars that suffer from said glitch, but I can't remember what they are at the moment.
 
Mafs, for something even more interesting/revealing, look at what the racing exhaust + supercharger and engine balancing does to the power curve ;)
 
Well if we let that power curve wind out to 13000rpm...

I've actually purposely used the glitched curve and dropped power before because it's fun to have to string cars out as far as you can before shifting to get anything out of them.
 
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