Important information about tyre wear indicator

Discussion in 'Project CARS 1' started by dyr_gl, Oct 24, 2015.

  1. dyr_gl

    dyr_gl

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    This is something everyone that isn´t using the profiler app and has to rely on the in game tyre wear indicator should know: it´s broken, and it doesn´t help at all.

    All the details are here:



    The clip includes a race that is the perfect example on how misleading the HUD is.
     
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  2. rams1de

    rams1de

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    Disappointing but hardly surprising. Other tyre related info on the telemetry HUD is also close to useless. Tyre temperature spread for camber changes and pressure changes don't make sense either.

    I understand the HUD is an asset from a previous racing game, maybe that's the problem or the tyre modelling is simply nuts.

    On another note, the thumbnail on the video shows the track almost ankle deep in rubber, is that realistic? Perhaps the tyres are replenished by driving over all that rubber /jk
     
  3. Spooky Wooky

    Spooky Wooky (Banned)

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    I'm at work with no youtube access, can you give a short description of the problem please?
     
  4. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    In a race with the RGT, he pits midway, tire wear indicator shows zero rubber on the left side of the car and not much on the right, doesn't change tires and it has no effect on his laptimes for much of the rest of the race. In the last couple of laps his tires suddenly go off, with no change in the tire wear graphic. In another race he runs with the tires overheating on the left side the whole race with no loss of grip or accelerated tire wear.
     
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  5. Spooky Wooky

    Spooky Wooky (Banned)

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    Thanks very much.
     
  6. Animera

    Animera

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    I read somewhere that the HUD tyre wear indicator only shows 50% of tyre life.
     
  7. copes24

    copes24

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    The tyre wear HUD only shows 50%-100% of the tyre life apparently. It's just another thing SMS have tacked on without really testing.

    I'm not sure about overheating though. In my head a slightly overheated tyre would just wear faster rather than suffer a noticeable drop in performance.
     
  8. dyr_gl

    dyr_gl

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    I don´t really know what the indicator displays, but I do know damn well what it doesn´t display. And the explanations of SMS guys are false. There are 2 of them:

    - It displays 50% of the wear: False. With some cars you can run for ages after 0% (road cars), with others you pick damage soon after it´s empty (like Formula C). It doesn´t display any fixed amount of tyre wear.

    - It displays the wear on the tread, when it´s over, you run on the carcass: False. As it can be seen in the video, some cars allow you to drive for ages with perfect grip once the indicator is empty. Surely they didn´t code the carcass to have the same grip as the rubber...

    Leaving the indicator aside, tyre wear is highly dissapointing. Every combo I have driven in depth has showed this behaviour: flat performance for a huge number of laps, then tyre damage. There´s not gradual wear, there´s no degradation. At one point you don´t have perfect grip anymore and within a minute your tyre is wobbling as if it had a puncture.
     
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  9. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Depends on what you mean by "slightly overheated". 5C won't make a big difference in grip, 20C over should be a substantial drop in grip on any compound.
     
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  10. dyr_gl

    dyr_gl

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    Yep. And it´s a quick process too. IRL after a very big slide (let´s say you spin on the power, then pull another burn-out to get going) you lose grip straight away. It´s also often mentioned how a long straight helps a lot as tyres "don´t remember" what they did before.

    Right now that behaviour isn´t really in the game. For most tyres the colour seems to imply 100º is optimum, and starts getting ugly once you go past 110º, but you can´t really feel anything running it orange at 125º.
     
  11. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Well with 2 to 3 times tire wear it works. This is not IRL,its a video game!
     
  12. dyr_gl

    dyr_gl

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    Video games have been able to do this for at least 15 years now mate.
     
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  13. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    As far as I can tell, some tyres aren't bad on the carcass, mostly road tyres, because that's what they're like irl. The compound of the tread is better, but once the tread is gone it's like a harder compound slick tyre. I think I remember one of the devs explain this in the official forum. The Formula A and B are both cars that tyres go off very quickly after the tyre indicator is down. This would be due to the tyres being racing slicks where the tread compound is already a slick and made for max grip, not durability, therefore the carcass will be significantly harder and less grippy. Remember, the tyres aren't the same for all cars.

    I could be wrong, but it seems to work fine for me, and the explanation the devs gave makes sense to me.
     
  14. twitcher

    twitcher

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    I would have to disagree. Even getting the tires as hot as 115-120, I feel a difference in performance.
     
  15. NLxAROSA

    NLxAROSA Premium

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    Be sure to check this thread over at the official forums.
     
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  16. dyr_gl

    dyr_gl

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    Yeah, me too. In the FB I was going FASTER with them overheated as I could use lower pressures with no punishment. So yep, sometimes there´s a difference.

    If you want to prove your point, go ahead and beat these times I set on overheated tyres with green tyres on your display. It should be easy if you have more grip, shouldn´t it?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  17. dyr_gl

    dyr_gl

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    All tyres are terrible on the carcass. It´s there to keep tyre structural integrity, not to give grip.

    You mention road tyres... If you actually had a driving license you´d know road tyres (be it budget or sporty ones) get WORSE in all conditions as they wear even if the grooves go and you get semi-slicks. That rubber is rubbish, the increased contact surface won´t make up for it.
     
  18. Simfan David

    Simfan David

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    Thank you for sharing this. I can tell you put alot of work into the video. We can only hope that they fix all the "what the hell" bugs for PC 2. We can only speculate that they will fix all these in PC 1. Granted they have been trying to fix as many as they can so hats off for that. Its a good time for us sim racers as the developers push for more realism and content!
     
  19. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    Mate, read the official forum, it's well explained there, and yes I do have a licence, and have driven on tyres in all kinds of conditions at all levels of wear. I also have experience on slicks and semi slicks.

    The bonding rubber below the tread doesn't have the same grip qualities, but in a road tyre it's not that much worse.

    If you had the experience with tyres you're claiming, you'd know there is an enormous difference between different tyres, to the point that making blanket statements like they all get "WORSE" (not sure why you need the caps) in all conditions, is ridiculous.

    Edit: Remember, they got their info on how different types of tyres should behave at different levels of wear, partially, from Collins' feedback. Now I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you likely don't have the same amount of experience he does.
     
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  20. dyr_gl

    dyr_gl

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    No, it´s not well explained. In fact there are 2 different explanations from different members (that contradict each other) and both can be proved wrong:

    - It only displays 50% of the wear: False. It displays different portions of tyre life on different cars. You can run ages safely with 0% in some cars, you can´t run more than a lap or 2 in others after hitting 0%.
    - It only displays the tread wear: False. Some cars keep getting faster on what this theory would suggest to be the carcass.

    The second probably explains how the indicator works, but exposes flaws on the way the actual tyre is behaving.

    You don´t have a clue what you´re talking about.

    Here you have how grip evolves on a road tyre as you wear your tread depth. As you can see, maximum grip is achieved on brand new rubber with maximum tread depth. Grip decreses gently as depth goes down, and it takes almost 2x the distance to stop your car even before running out of tread!

    It doesn´t even take reaching the carcass for the grip levels of a road tyre to decrease dramatically, yet in the game we can reach it, run on it, and drive as fast (in fact faster) as before!

    [​IMG]

    Empty chatter with 0 content. The carcass by definition is a part of the tyre meant for a structural function, it´s not meant to be run on, and that´s why it´s provides no grip once it´s reached.

    If that generalization I made is wrong, surely you´ll have no trouble finding footage of someone in any type of car running on the carcass doing the same pace as they did in brand new rubber (in fact more than 1 second faster), as I was able to do in the game. Go ahead.

    From a SMS buddy of yours that knows a bit more than you: "it only displays tread because you should never aim to run the carcass". This guy knows how it works like, but misses that in the game is currently not like that.

    You do well trying to reach for authority as you´re not doing well on the debate yourself. But I got bad news: the fact Ben Collins helped with something doesn´t mean the result achieved is accurate.

    Example: He hailed the accuracy in the performance levels of the FB compared to a GP2/superleague second tier single seater, and I´m running F1 pole position laps with it on race trim.

    The truth is tyre wear isn´t working properly in the game. There´s no wear and degradationon a lot of different tyres in PCARS. You run full grip until you reach a point where you just get damage. The tyre goes from giving full grip to start wobbling as if it had a puncture.

    That needs some serious work on it, and it would be better for everyone if the shilling stopped, the issues were admitted and adressed instead of sweeped aside with lame arguments. In the end we would get a better product. If that "everything is OK" attitude continues we´ll end up buying shovelware because they get away with it. And we´ll be to blame.

    If something is wrong, what you do is checking it and fixing it. Not sweeping it aside with rubbish. There are plenty of examples. Right now camber adjustments don´t do anything to the I-M-O temperatures. Instead of working on that, you tell them about it and get replies like "we don´t have enough lateral definition to display it, but the effect is there". LOL. You have 3 measurement points! Who you think you´re fooling with that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
  21. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Did you report your findings on the PCars forum? Yes I see some valid points,have you tried this with 2/3 times wear? There is some info on official PCars thread Japanese expansion pack.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  22. giorgos21

    giorgos21

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    I was suspecting that these YIRO tires have some hidden technology in them.
     
  23. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    It was a member who suggested the 50% wear thing, and it was a dev who corrected him and said it's meant to show tread depth. The dev explained it already, and you claim to prove it wrong because you can go faster, but how are we supposed to know your lap times are consistent enough for that to prove anything? A lot more factors than tyre tread depth can make you faster during a stint.

    Again, you're making sweeping statements about all tyres performing exactly the same as they wear, and that is complete rubbish. Keep googling stuff to back up your argument buddy, you obviously have no actual real world experience to draw from.

    The camber isn't working properly right now, I agree, and it has already been acknowledged by the devs, and they have been working on it for a while now, so saying they ignore it or claim it does work is just more nonsense.

    I'm not going to bother with you anymore, as you're ranting and carrying on about stuff that has already been addressed, and just claiming to know better than everyone else, including the devs themselves.
     
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  24. NLxAROSA

    NLxAROSA Premium

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    The camber issue has been reported by several members here after which it was raised by me in the WMD (private) part of the Project CARS forums. Several well-knowledged WMD members joined in with detailed explanation of what didn't work according to them and now it's being fixed. (There are more devs responses but those are private, so can't post them here) So I don't understand how you come to the conclusion they ignore stuff like this, because they definitely don't. You WILL be required to have a properly documented case, just stating 'it doesn't work' won't cut it. (e.g. the camber issue is a really complex/tricky one, way beyond my level of expertise, which is why I raised it at WMD where I knew several very knowledgable members would weigh in). And simple things get fixed relatively quickly, like the car stat errors for the Evo/Clio pointed out by @Ridox2JZGTE . Come to think of it, they addressed EVERY issue that was raised in this way (pretty much proves the WMD model works pretty well :)), so saying devs ignore issues is false (plenty proof otherwise).

    But please, (everyone) cut the ad-hominems and focus on validating/invalidating the issue. If there really is an issue, it will be fixed. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  25. JohnScoonsBeard

    JohnScoonsBeard

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    This is the footnote of a post from Casey Ringley in his DLC car release notes adds some interesting insight to the likely next patch regarding tyre wear/model.

    Last but not least, patch 6 includes some recalibration of tire heating models. Some folks in a G40 league here found an issue where a slight increase in pressure could cause an extreme amount of overheating in the tires. We tracked it down to a fix in a change in how the carcass generates heat at low inflation pressure, but this sent us down a rabbit hole of checking that no cars had completely broken tires with the change. Things are much better with the fix in place. Temperature balance front to rear looks more correct on most cars and it removes something of an exploit that was possible in car setup. You’ll need to take more care with setting tire pressures now and can expect a larger response from those changes.

    With the fix, tires heat faster, more predictably, and will really punish you for poor driving and setup in a way they didn't before. A lot of tires could move to more standardized values without needing lots of extra calibration just to get the right front to rear temperature balance. Before, if rear tires started at a lower pressure, they could run up against a limit near ideal pressure and lose heat; ending up cooler than the front even if the handling balance was strongly biased to oversteer. Now they get nice, consistent heating and show a reasonably higher carcass temp than non-driven fronts, which then filters through to hotter tread. Generally the temps are feeling more representative of handling balance now. Cool stuff.

    While in there recalibrating the heat, I merged in some ideas we've been playing with for pCARS 2. Biggest of those is that most slick tires (those based on our SLICK_GT3 template) now have a larger temperature range for the rubber of 0-200°C. This fits in with stuff we've learned from rallycross where tires under extreme stress creep up to 180C or more. This has a pretty cool result of accentuating the camber effects of a tire so the inside edge reads significantly hotter as it should. Implies that our the old cap around 150-165C was limiting heat gain on the inside edge but not the outside. Also does a very good job at punishing the driver for abusive technique.

    Some tire sets also had slight wear rate recalibration to fit with changes brought on by the new heat model. Anything that did change stayed at the same starting grip as before, but some will wear faster now and with a stronger grip loss effect. Prototype work on the upcoming V8 Supercar helped to hone in the right reference point for grip loss on a heavily worn tire. Generally the cost is about 2s over a 2min lap at the end of a run. Go longer than that and you're likely to find yourself driving it off the performance cliff and losing heaps of time.
     
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  26. EmArA

    EmArA

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    Anyone tried long races with full wets or intermediates? Does the tire indicator work at all? since things are broken with slicks I guess it should be worse with full wets or intermediates...
     
  27. CountinFrames

    CountinFrames

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    I only think you can pull this off if you run aids like TC, ABS and SC. SC would be enough by itself to produce very low tire wear like this. I'd guess it would be a lot more difficult to do on pro settings and no aids. But just a guess.
    While this video seems kind of sensationalist.
    In reality there's nothing wrong with running tires for 30 laps, then having them fall off badly. You pushed them to end.
    I agree the hud is inaccurate, but I also am guessing he used aids to avoid the fall off they would normally have?
    Then put in a sim god like stint using the computer aids.
     
  28. dyr_gl

    dyr_gl

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    A poor one too.

    It has all to do with the tyre used and nothing to do with the assists or driving style. I drove half the race sideways and the tyres were red hot and under huge punishment (this car loves it and allows for it). It´s a bad problem with the road A "racing tyre" and some others in the game that won´t behave correctly.

    A GT4 tyre will behave correctly both with assists on and off. A Pirelli Trofeo will behave like this regardless of the assists used.

    Oh yes there is. A tyre won´t pass instantly from "brand new" to "so worn it got damaged". There was zero degradation, I was breaking the clock then bang, my tyre was so worn it got damaged. But it didn´t show any lost of grip at all at any point, maybe one lap before. The previous 30 were ALL THE SAME. Green temperature or red, it didn´t matter. 90% life left or 0% life left, it didn´t matter. The tyre performance was flat.

    Again, you´re guessing wrong. It´s not that the fall off speed is slow because of the assists, it´s much more simple: there´s no fall off with the Pirelli Trofeo and its Farreti equivalent. You go from full grip to damage in a minute. With and without assists, overheating or not. Try yourself.
     
  29. CountinFrames

    CountinFrames

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    So it is specific to the Pirelli trofeo and faretti tires? Ok.
    I just knew the tires definitely "ice out" sometimes.

    Still think there's nothing wrong with a long stint and massive fall off. If that's how you drove the tire.
    Happens in real racing.
    They're talking about massive fall off in F1 this season plenty.

    I watched it again and at no Point did you get sideways. Nor lock up the brakes. Has all the tell tale signs of a long flat run on SC or some other aids. They do make a huge difference for the record.
    This is not uncommon for a long intentionally flat run. With aids. Heard other racers boast of 30 laps at x pace before. 20-30 laps is a lot on a tire and massive fall off is to be expected
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
  30. CarreraGT

    CarreraGT

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    Not quite, the coefficient of friction also drops off with temperature increase, so you should feel a loss of grip.

    This is pretty common in F1, where drivers often pit to change tyres because they have "gone off" due to overheating rather than actual wear. This is why a lot of the drivers complain about not being able to push the cars 100% during a race, for risk of overheating the tyres. The Pirelli tyres are ruining the sport if you ask me...

    Anyway yes, generally speaking an overheated tyre will wear faster too