in which game more realistic?

[Vede89]

Hi i have a little question, i just notice that in both forza 4 an GT5 of course we have car like

Ferrari 458, Ford GT, Audi R8 5.2 quattro, Lexus LFA etc

my question is in forza 4 the index performance show the Ford GT lower than the Ferrari, Audi, Lexus, mlcaren etc but in GT5 the PP system show the ford GT higher than every of this car, so that mean if i understand that in GT5 the Ford GT5 have better performance that the other car and in Forza the GT have lower performance. Which one is more realistic to real life. Every car sotck of course.

Another question is for GT5 sound. Can i have the same sound effect as the view we see the car have better sound effect that the hood view, is it possible to have the same sound for every view?

Sorry for my bad english this is not my main language and thank you for the awnser

 

[FyreandIce]

Lets look at this scientifically.

Source

Every single of of those cars is faster than the Ford GT. (That is correcting the LFA's wet lap time by 4 seconds as per the Top Gear usual thought process)

 

[Vede89]

ok so that mean GT5 overated the Ford GT

 

[GT55YW]

Lets look at this scientifically.

Source

Every single of of those cars is faster than the Ford GT. (That is correcting the LFA's wet lap time by 4 seconds as per the Top Gear usual thought process)

You're using a tv show as science? Oh boy...

 

[FyreandIce]

You're using a tv show as science? Oh boy...

Funny that the very same TV show was used to support GT4s realism with the NSX vs NSX Real vs Game.

 

[GT55YW]

Ford GT
(A) 1.92 m²
(cd) 0.35
(cd × A) 0.67
at 200km/h
downforce front 44kg
lift rear 2kg

http://www.**************/forums/f152/downforce-anyone-86195/

Check it out. Maybe not super scientific, but there's a basis. top gear lap times, you might as well go do some laps yourself and claim that.

Being a MR, with tire width, power, and downforce, I would expect it to be rated higher. Depends on what each company uses to calculate. I don't know if I've ever seen a production vehicle with the downforce of a Ford GT.

 

[GT55YW]

That's supposed to be lotustalk .com, not ***

 

[cuco33]

You're using a tv show as science? Oh boy...

It might be just a TV show (and the best one ever created, EVER!! 💡) but the TG power lap times are done on the same track, usually in the same weather conditions (unless identified with W for wet, which won't be the ONLY factor but it's all we have) by the Stig who is, as much as we know, a pro race driver who puts down consistent times. These games have tons of cars so I don't think either will nail it. Personally I think PD botched the Veyron data badly. It is a whale/boat in GT5 and comparing real world TG power lap times and Nurburgring's Nord lap time (in traffic mind you!) it says the Veyron might be a heavy pig but it is one fast puppy. In FM4 I think they got the data much better. You still feel the weight of it around the corners but it drives MUCH better than how GT5 has it. With 500-1000 cars, not every car is going to be right though.

Funny that the very same TV show was used to support GT4s realism with the NSX vs NSX Real vs Game.

touche!!

 

[GT55YW]

Funny that the very same TV show was used to support GT4s realism with the NSX vs NSX Real vs Game.

It is. Because that's not science either lol

Since I have almost every episode, thank you finalgear, I would know.
Even if they made the circumstances the exact same, as in he played the game from the driver view (I believe he played from 3rd person), it wouldn't be scientific.

Tire grip? Exact specific road conditions? There is sand there, my friend. And wind. I am fairly sure GT4 didn't simulate weather conditions, of sand blowing onto the track, besides the vehicle's exact specifications (ABS, whatever else) and who knows his personal game settings.

Science can be recreated over and over again, with approximate results. Let me guess, your local police department works just like CSI, too.

 

[Jav]

You're using a tv show as science? Oh boy...

As ridiculous as you want to make his post sound, it is the best data bank for vehicle performance we have on Earth. Pure lap times on the same track, yes there are several varables that will affect car performance and lap times, but the Top Gear's power board gives you a very true represntation of each cars performance. On an ideal test lab enviroment they would test every car on the same day, at the same time but let's face it, that is just impossible.
Don't let their good sense of humor fool you, I bet that if it was Tiff Needell doing the same you'd swear it was pure science.

 

[FyreandIce]

Don't let their good sense of humor fool you, I bet that if it was Tiff Needell doing the same you'd swear it was pure science.

Wrong, if the data supported GT5 over Forza he would swear it was pure science.

 

[GT55YW]

As ridiculous as you want to make his post sound, it is the best data bank for vehicle performance we have on Earth. Pure lap times on the same track, yes there are several varables that will affect car performance and lap times, but the Top Gear's power board gives you a very true represntation of each cars performance. On an ideal test lab enviroment they would test every car on the same day, at the same time but let's face it, that is just impossible.
Don't let their good sense of humor fool you, I bet that if it was Tiff Needell doing the same you'd swear it was pure science.

I love top gear. And I agree if one wanted video and to see this computer by a human being, then it would be done that way. But someone with a much better physics background than me, who was familiar with vehicles.

As in, every vehicle has a set value for downforce in the front and rear. Weight transitions, how the suspensions work, tires, so on. I don't have the mind for it, but it can quite easily be calculated for someone who the territory. It's just calculations. Then again, easy for someone with a degree that probably costs 100s of thousands of dollars lol

 

[Speedster502]

It might be just a TV show (and the best one ever created, EVER!! 💡

It isn't the greatest TV show ever. That's your opinion, not a fact. IMO, Fifth Gear is better with drivers with some actual talent...

Personally I think PD botched the Veyron data badly. It is a whale/boat in GT5 and comparing real world TG power lap times and Nurburgring's Nord lap time (in traffic mind you!) it says the Veyron might be a heavy pig but it is one fast puppy.

The Veyron lap will not have been done with traffic. Whenever they go for a 'record breaking' run they do it on a closed circuit to reduce the possibility of accidents.

In regards to the actual subject matter of this thread, I can't really comment. I haven't driven any of the cars in real life and therefore can't compare and contrast them to the game's representation of them.

 

[eran0004]

It depends on what you mean by performance... obviously, Gran Turismo and Forza has different definitions, I can promise you that it's not the case that "one got it right and one didn't". They measure different things and that is why the cars get different performance ratings. For instance, I know that downforce is an important factor for the PP in GT5, maybe it's not as important in Forza?

You can't say "realistic to real life", because in real life there are no performance index systems.

When it comes to Top Gear test track times, that is hardly scientific evidence. The only thing a lap around TGTT says is that car X is faster around TGTT than car Y (and thus better at tracks that looks like the TGTT). Go to another track and there might be a different result.

 

[TeggD]

Lets look at this scientifically.

Source

Every single of of those cars is faster than the Ford GT. (That is correcting the LFA's wet lap time by 4 seconds as per the Top Gear usual thought process)

Top Gear is far from a scientific source. Infact its like any other tv show with its format. More focus on fun comparisons rather than giving you a real answer. Thats what also makes Top Gear great as it never takes itself seriously.

Also isnt the Top Gear Track more speed biased given its design?

PP also does not reflect actual performance. More of an estimation for peopel who need something simple to understand in the game. You can see this in weekly time trials etc.

 

[FyreandIce]

Top Gear is far from a scientific source. Infact its like any other tv show with its format. More focus on fun comparisons rather than giving you a real answer. Thats what also makes Top Gear great as it never takes itself seriously.

The only thing that is taken seriously with top gear is the power lap times.

That's why they use a professional driver and keep his identity hidden.

If they didn't take them seriously, they would use the presenters to do the laps.

 

[TeggD]

The only thing that is taken seriously with top gear is the power lap times.

That's why they use a professional driver and keep his identity hidden.

If they didn't take them seriously, they would use the presenters to do the laps.

Pretty sure they are not the same driver everytime as we learnt with the whole Stig mess

 

[GT55YW]

It depends on what you mean by performance... obviously, Gran Turismo and Forza has different definitions, I can promise you that it's not the case that "one got it right and one didn't". They measure different things and that is why the cars get different performance ratings. For instance, I know that downforce is an important factor for the PP in GT5, maybe it's not as important in Forza?

You can't say "realistic to real life", because in real life there are no performance index systems.

When it comes to Top Gear test track times, that is hardly scientific evidence. The only thing a lap around TGTT says is that car X is faster around TGTT than car Y (and thus better at tracks that looks like the TGTT). Go to another track and there might be a different result.

Top Gear is far from a scientific source. Infact its like any other tv show with its format. More focus on fun comparisons rather than giving you a real answer. Thats what also makes Top Gear great as it never takes itself seriously.

Also isnt the Top Gear Track more speed biased given its design?

PP also does not reflect actual performance. More of an estimation. You can see this in weekly time trials etc.

The only thing that is taken seriously with top gear is the power lap times.

That's why they use a professional driver and keep his identity hidden.

If they didn't take them seriously, they would use the presenters to do the laps.

How do you know that is a pro driver? Have you met him? James May has been known to wear all white when he wants to drive, maybe he's the Stig.

-That was me being a jerk. Now me being realistic about it.-

There have been multiple Stigs. It was rumoured there were several different people, and no matter what, even being the exact same person, a human being cannot perform perfectly. It just won't present the same things as unbiased calculations. And as you can easily find on here, there is a huge argument over the differences in physics between F4 and GT5.

 

[gtuned]

Driver San Francisco.
Now can we close this war-bait thread ?

 

[GT6mebe]

The only thing that is taken seriously with top gear is the power lap times.

That's why they use a professional driver and keep his identity hidden.

If they didn't take them seriously, they would use the presenters to do the laps.

Hahahahaha you cannot not take Top gear lap times as a cars performance value....according to Top Gear the Nissan GTR2011 is faster than an Enzo so much for that.

If you look at the Nurburgring lap times for this game you will get an answer but that track favours agility.

 

[Gejabo]

It isn't the greatest TV show ever. That's your opinion, not a fact. IMO, Fifth Gear is better with drivers with some actual talent...

agreed 100%

Jason Plato: BTCC, WTCC Formula renault
Tiff Needell: Several Formula series and Le mans 24h at least once (1981)
Vicki Butler-Henderson: former Racing instructor at Silverstone.

Sorry for the detour now back ontopic 👍

 

[cuco33]

It isn't the greatest TV show ever. That's your opinion, not a fact. IMO, Fifth Gear is better with drivers with some actual talent...

It might be my opinion but so is yours about Fifth Gear. I know they aren't the most talented driving presenters on Top Gear but the show is simply entertaining and is my favorite show, bar none. I do like Fifth Gear especially with someone like Tiff knowing what he's doing with a car but that show is good, just not as good (opinion) as Top Gear. There's a reason why TG is famous worldwide and why even the US is hooked on it, and why Fifth Gear is not. Cuz it's awesome
Regardless, the TG lap times are done by a pro; not Jezza, not Hamster, not Captain Slow (these 3 are the entertaining part of the show really). Even if the Stig is a different driver, it's a pro driver and pro drivers usually are very consistent and comparable in lap times.

The Veyron lap will not have been done with traffic. Whenever they go for a 'record breaking' run they do it on a closed circuit to reduce the possibility of accidents.

In regards to the actual subject matter of this thread, I can't really comment. I haven't driven any of the cars in real life and therefore can't compare and contrast them to the game's representation of them.

There is an unofficial Bugatti Veyron lap time of 7:40 done by some Aussie car magazine that I came across which is still wicked fast. 7:40, albeit not official but impressive as it was done in traffic, is in Mercedes SLS AMG/SLR Mclaren/Ford GT territory while NOT in traffic on the closed circuit! The Veyron did it In traffic mind you! It is much faster than what PD specked the standard Veyron to be, which I've said they got wrong for some time now. 7:40, in traffic, unofficially on an open Nord circuit is FAST regardless of what anyone says. Likewise, the Top Gear Veyron time of 1:18.3 (still 12th fastest street legal car they tested to this day btw) is also wicked FAST, faster than a Zonda F, Maseratti MC12 and Lambo Murci LP670-4, and only 0.4sec slower than a Caterham 7 Superlight R500!! I seriously tried taking the Veyron, even just RS tires, around Nord and couldn't get anywhere near that time. Granted, I'm not the best on Nord but the driving line makes it easier for me. I'd have to upgrade the car (not power wise) and maybe do a bit of tuning to even get a chance to come close to it.

Everyone seems to think that because it's a whale of a car in GT5 and not the fastest around the twisties that it is the same way in real life but this isn't true at all judging by actual real world lap times; in my examples the Top Gear power lap time and the unofficial Nordschleife in traffic lap time.

 

[Andy89]

I can easilly go under 7 minutes with a stock Veyron on sport hard. Yes, it understeer a lot, but It's because of its wicked acceleration. You have to accelerate a lot less compared with other cars, or it will throw you outside the track. To me the in-game car reflect pretty well the real value of the car. It's still a 1000+ Hp car that weights 1800 kg, I think it requires a little of skills to be driven at the max.

Speaking of the Ford GT, I'll say in the game it's on par withFerrari 458, LFA etc, maybe just a little above because of its wonderful handling, but in terms of lap times they are almost equal. Remember that PP is not so accurate, often a car with less PP is faster than another with more PP : look at the GT-R '07, it has less PP than the McLaren MP4-12C, but in terms of Lap Times they are almost equal.

 

[Tornado]

Hahahahaha you cannot not take Top gear lap times as a cars performance value....according to Top Gear the Nissan GTR2011 is faster than an Enzo so much for that.

Got a bit more reasoning behind that?

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

For me I think Gran Forza 5.4 is more realistic.

 

[ghsnu]

Hahahahaha you cannot not take Top gear lap times as a cars performance value....according to Top Gear the Nissan GTR2011 is faster than an Enzo so much for that.

If you look at the Nurburgring lap times for this game you will get an answer but that track favours agility.

Thinking back to when Jeremy drove the Enzo, I swear I remember him saying it was a rocket in a straigh line, but failed to deliver equal cornering ability.

Something on those lines. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Even then, the GT-R is far from the fuel-saving V6 in your grandmother's Impala. Despite being 4WD, it can corner equal/better than your average super car, especially the 2012 GT-R.


On topic: A game cannot be compared to real life until we can factor everything involved into an actual lap around a track (wind, road/air temp., track conditions, proper tire data (per car that is) and proper tires, proper upgrades (I'm certain a "stage 1 engine upgrade" does not exist for the 458, unless you're talking about the cam, pistons, heads/headers, etc. - in which case, do the latter instead), etc.). Furthermore, I doubt I can trust ether of the two performance systems (nether PI nor PP). There's no way to correctly place a car in a class unless it's hand-placed, not calculated by some AI program.

As much as PI and PP places aero and weight into one number (aero, weight, and suspension/drivetrain for Forza), HP and weight is the best way to go - that is if you set them to realistic levels (ex: 600hp and 1200-1300kg for your average high performance car)....also assuming other drivers don't be a 🤬 and use ballast/power limiter to have a truly unfair advantage.

TL;DR: Go by horsepower and weight in the stats. Suspension might not be right (do we even have anything besides pure data from the company for the suspension data?), but that's as far as these console "sims" can pretty much go. Of course, (most) of the PC sims will go further in depth (actually throw in more factors than the two big console sims), though they still are not 100% a sim.


Feel free correct my rather long post. Not that awake ATM.

 

[GT55YW]

Not sure how much help this is, but from our own times here is some data on vehicle performance.

5. 06:59.177 - Bugatti Veyron 16.4 '09 (mike_gt3)
12. 07:10.413 - Lexus LFA '10 (Timppaq)
13. 07:10.926 - Ford GT '06 (mike_gt3)
15. 07:12.027 - Nissan GT-R Spec V (GT ACADEMY VERSION) '09 (mike_gt3)
16. 07:12.335 - Enzo Ferrari '02 (Andy89)
19. 07:14.541 - Ferrari 458 Italia '09 (mike_gt3)
22. 07:16.307 - Nissan GT-R '07 (mike_gt3)

Times on the ring in stock cars w/ stock tires. It's not the most reliable, but if anyone wants a little help getting a good idea where some cars stand.

Forum I found this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=214611&highlight=fastest+stock+vehicle+lap+time

 

[Samus]

Hahahahaha you cannot not take Top gear lap times as a cars performance value....according to Top Gear the Nissan GTR2011 is faster than an Enzo so much for that.

You have any evidence to the contrary?

f you look at the Nurburgring lap times for this game you will get an answer but that track favours agility.

How do the lap times in this virtual game or any other give you an answer to the OPs question?

 

[GT55YW]

So does anyone have any honest to goodness proof of performance difference between the Ford GT in comparison to any of the example the OP said? LFA, R8V10, or 458?

 

[GT55YW]

Audi R8 V10 5.2
(A) 2.024m²
(cd) 0.36
(cd x A) 0.72
at 200km/h
lift front 23kg
downforce rear 3kg

525hp
391ft
3583lbs
45/55
MR

Ford GT
(A) 1.92 m²
(cd) 0.35
(cd × A) 0.67
at 200km/h
downforce front 44kg
lift rear 2kg

550hp
500ft
3485lbs
43/57
MR

Mini Cooper S John Cooper Works
(A) 2.05 m²
(cd) 0.36
(cd × A) 0.73
at 200km/h
lift front 17kg
lift rear 20kg

Gumpert Apollo Sport
(A): 1,99 m²
(cd): 0,57
(cd × A): 1,14
downforce front 20kg
downforce rear 176kg

Trying to actually solve your question and not drag this further off topic, I may have solved this issue a bit. I really have no idea how the GT could be rated lower than the R8 from these numbers.

The GT has more power, more torque, and weighs less than the R8. The GT surpasses the R8 by leaps and bounds regarding front downforce, but with rear downforce the R8 beats the GT by a 5kg difference, the GT have 2kg of lift. The GT should by far be ahead of the R8 by all of the information I have found. I was thinking F4 didn't take aero, drag, and down force into account, but even by power, torque, and weight, the GT wins. Not to hate on F4, but I'm not sure why exactly the R8 V10 is ranked above it. Sounds like the GT is the way to go on Forza lol

Site this is come from gets blocked when I paste it, so http://www. lotustalk .com/forums/f152/downforce-anyone-86195/