in which game more realistic?

[Samus]

So does anyone have any honest to goodness proof of performance difference between the Ford GT in comparison to any of the example the OP said? LFA, R8V10, or 458?

They don't but the Top Gear laptimes that were brought up give you a decent enough idea. Laptimes in the game prove nothing to their real world ability and which game has got them correct.

 

[Cosbuster]

The PP system is different so you can't really compare them directly. It sums up individual aspects of the car to decide against what other cars it should be raced against but it doesn't necessarily mean that higher PP = faster.

It's more of a guideline to determine the "class" of a vehicle but doesn't really say how fast it is whithin that class which can be easily proven by running laps. Many cars are faster than others with higher PP. My guess is that PP takes into account the basics like weight, power, torgue, tyres etc. but handling can't be used as a value making PP useless to determine which car is faster in a track environment.

 

[GT55YW]

They don't but the Top Gear laptimes that were brought up give you a decent enough idea. Laptimes in the game prove nothing to their real world ability and which game has got them correct.

Neither does top gear times. Did you not see my last post?

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Trying to actually solve your question and not drag this further off topic, I may have solved this issue a bit. I really have no idea how the GT could be rated lower than the R8 from these numbers.

The GT has more power, more torque, and weighs less than the R8. The GT surpasses the R8 by leaps and bounds regarding front downforce, but with rear downforce the R8 beats the GT by a 5kg difference, the GT have 2kg of lift. The GT should by far be ahead of the R8 by all of the information I have found. I was thinking F4 didn't take aero, drag, and down force into account, but even by power, torque, and weight, the GT wins. Not to hate on F4, but I'm not sure why exactly the R8 V10 is ranked above it. Sounds like the GT is the way to go on Forza lol

Site this is come from gets blocked when I paste it, so http://www. lotustalk .com/forums/f152/downforce-anyone-86195/

You're not taking into account that the R8 is AWD and the GT isn't. Also, the cars have different tire sizes, different suspension and alignment setups, different weight distributions, different power curves, different gearing, different shift times, different suspension geometry, different braking ability, etc.
Looking only at aerodynamic drag, horsepower, and downforce is a very narrow way to look at the issue.
Forza 4's PI is calculated by the car being 'driven' around a theoretical track that perfectly balances all factors of car performance. That's the way they get the numbers they do. Now im not saying its 100% accurate, but with stock cars and even tuned cars, it is very close. Very close. And clearly, on the 'track' that they calculate their PI on, the R8 is faster than the GT, therefore it is rated higher.

 

[GT55YW]

You're not taking into account that the R8 is AWD and the GT isn't. Also, the cars have different tire sizes, different suspension and alignment setups, different weight distributions, different power curves, different gearing, different shift times, different suspension geometry, different braking ability, etc.
Looking only at aerodynamic drag, horsepower, and downforce is a very narrow way to look at the issue.
Forza 4's PI is calculated by the car being 'driven' around a theoretical track that perfectly balances all factors of car performance. That's the way they get the numbers they do. Now im not saying its 100% accurate, but with stock cars and even tuned cars, it is very close. Very close. And clearly, on the 'track' that they calculate their PI on, the R8 is faster than the GT, therefore it is rated higher.

You're right! I forgot the R8 and the Gallardo are the same, that totally slipped my mind that it's all wheel drive. But that hurts it more, because an all wheel drive would have it higher up on the GT5 list.

I don't mean any disrespect, but how do you know about F4's pi system? I have no clue how it works. I played with F2 and F3 and couldn't play it compared to GT4, so I know little about the series.

Do you have any good references you'd suggest I read up on? I was thinking about comparing the vehicle themselves against one another to figure out theoretically which one should be top dog, and going from there.

Even being all wheel drive, I'd still put my money on the GT to out perform the R8. All the other conditions you mentioned I brought up earlier if you check the thread, and I was hoping to find some real world car data to compare the GT with the other cars in the OP to try and establish if the GT should be above it, or not. I have no evidence to argue it at the moment, but to the best of my memory only the 458 should out perform the GT.

 

[Tornado]

The F430 was fairly equal in performance to the Ford GT when they were both on sale (they were tested against each other many times). As such, the LFA and 458 should both outperform the GT by a notable margin.

 

[Tenacious D]

Don't let their good sense of humor fool you, I bet that if it was Tiff Needell doing the same you'd swear it was pure science.

Tiff Needell is pure science.

Seriously, Top Gear is good for a laugh, but I'm not going to confuse Jerry Claxon yelling his head off in a sports car with a serious car digestion.

 

[peter_vod69]

Hahahahaha you cannot not take Top gear lap times as a cars performance value....according to Top Gear the Nissan GTR2011 is faster than an Enzo so much for that.

If you look at the Nurburgring lap times for this game you will get an answer but that track favours agility.

?

When does any racetrack besides an Oval NOT favour agility?

The 2011 GTR is, in all likelihood faster than an Enzo. So HAHAHA yourself, like it or not the TG Power Lap board is a far better measure than most we have available. The Veyron's laptime around there was exactly what I thought it would be, fast, for an Audi TT on steroids, but not nimble, and sure as hell not setup for track work.

Check this out for a demonstration of the Veyron vs a nimble hypercar.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

You're right! I forgot the R8 and the Gallardo are the same, that totally slipped my mind that it's all wheel drive. But that hurts it more, because an all wheel drive would have it higher up on the GT5 list.

It also puts it higher up on FM4's list, as the info I have posted a little further down will show you.

I don't mean any disrespect, but how do you know about F4's pi system? I have no clue how it works. I played with F2 and F3 and couldn't play it compared to GT4, so I know little about the series.

From Under the Hood: Part 2 on Forzamotorsport.net:

What about Performance Index changes?

I’m going to get a bit more technical in this explanation. The PI and classification system have been significantly changed in Forza 4. As you know, Forza features a dynamic car classification system we call Performance Index (PI). This system was rewritten for Forza 2 and again for Forza 3. Thus far, each new approach has addressed some big issues and created new ones. For this version, we decided to keep the same general system and refine it based on data rather than rewrite it. This approach was born out of the wisdom we’ve gained over the years through rewriting it—aka “the devil we know.” Forza 3 was incredibly well-explored and exploited by you, the players. Specifically, the community found issues with how the system scored AWD drivetrains and, to a lesser degree, downforce and weight. We took all of the data from our scoreboards and data logs (uploaded to the server, but not visible by players) to help us refine the PI simulation.

Unfortunately, we couldn’t realistically address the Forza 3 PI issues with a title update. In order to address PI in Forza 3, we would have had to put an entirely new database out there in a title update. And, the database is larger than what is allowed for a title update. Therefore, the only way to get the new database out would be with a user-selected or “Trojan Horse” DLC. There are many restrictions on this type of DLC. Also, the likelihood of mismatched databases between players is very high. The final straw was this: In order to make this fix, we would have had to wipe all of the scoreboards and “fix up” everyone’s saved games, as well as delete all of the tuning files, ghosts, and replays in the community (including those on the storefront, in your local save game, and those currently installed on all of the cars in your garage). In the end, we elected to study the issues in Forza 3 with better data-logging so that we could hopefully address them all in Forza 4.

In Forza 4, the PI and classification system has evolved considerably. First, we changed the simulation track that our PI system uses to evaluate each car. This new track was more scientifically derived. Not only did we look at the Forza 3 data results to find a more realistic stackrank target based on how our community’s fastest drivers perform, we also exported and studied the track geometry from all of our Forza 4 tracks to find a better way to design the PI simulation track. Our goal was to make a PI simulation track that not only better represents actual car stackrank target, but also does so by recreating the types of track combinations found throughout the game. This new track is longer and features more types of corners and combinations.

There were also two big changes in the PI simulation itself. Looking at the PI simulation in Forza 3, we found that AWD cars were not accelerating out of the corners as effectively as they would in the real world. This meant that the average speed for their simulated lap was lower—thus they had lower PI. This error was related to the code as well as the simulation track geometry. So we changed the track geometry to have more increasing radius lines to follow. We also changed the code to push the front tire limits more while accelerating (especially for AWD cars). These changes made the AWD cars faster in the simulation. By making them faster in the simulation, they get a higher PI. Obviously, these changes don’t change how fast they are on the track when you’re driving them. This just changes how they are scored by the PI system. Therefore, higher PI simulation results for AWD cars means less headroom for upgrades before hitting the class boundary.

On a related note: I saw questions in the community regarding Forza’s simulation of drivetrain loss in AWD cars. Forza 3 (as well as Forza 4) feature both higher driveline inertia as well as higher drivetrain friction for AWD cars, relative to RWD and FWD cars. This system is highly nuanced. Some AWD drivetrains are actually very efficient and some RWD systems are highly inefficient. However, as an average, AWD systems are less efficient than RWD systems in Forza. Drivetrain efficiency was not the source of the AWD PI issue in Forza 3.

Do you have any good references you'd suggest I read up on? I was thinking about comparing the vehicle themselves against one another to figure out theoretically which one should be top dog, and going from there.

For real-world data, honestly Top Gear laptimes are a good benchmark, regardless of what nay-sayers have to say about it. They're a good place to start because they're basically the only semi-controlled database of laptimes for that broad of a range of cars that's readily available.
If you don't trust that, then look for older car magazines where they do a track test of the GT or the R8, and see if you can find track tests for both of them at the same track. Road & Track does these sorts of test pretty regularly, but I don't know even still if both cars have been run professionally at the same track other than the TGTT....

Even being all wheel drive, I'd still put my money on the GT to out perform the R8. All the other conditions you mentioned I brought up earlier if you check the thread, and I was hoping to find some real world car data to compare the GT with the other cars in the OP to try and establish if the GT should be above it, or not. I have no evidence to argue it at the moment, but to the best of my memory only the 458 should out perform the GT.

Honestly, I would not care to comment on that. Remember that every time the cars change gear, the R8 will be making up something like .05 seconds at least on the GT because the GT has a clutch pedal and an H=pattern gearbox vs. the R8's dual-clutch flappy-paddle system. That alone will make a pretty serious difference to the laptimes.

 

[kimi123]

It has nothing to do with realism just a class system. It is not really important and should not be taken too seriously.

 

[Spagetti69]

Does Kaz own a Ford GT?

 

[Jav]

Pretty sure they are not the same driver everytime as we learnt with the whole Stig mess

The majority of the time it's done by the Stig, but in some cases the car maker will use their factory test drivers.

 

[Cosbuster]

The majority of the time it's done by the Stig, but in some cases the car maker will use their factory test drivers.

As far as I know, "The Stig" has been at least two different people so far excluding the extra drivers and who knows how many else.

 

[Stradivis]

One thing came to mind. Many modern cars have lots of electronic assists, like the GT-R, Mitsubishi EVO, Baby McLaren, etc.

This implicates two things, IMO:

1- In GT5, many of us disable most aids, like TCS. Maybe this reflects a scenario impossible to replicate fully IRL, and therefore causes some discrepancies;

2- Maybe between Forza and GT there's a difference in how such aids are treated in regards to PI or PP calculation.

Also, there are cars with unique features, like McLaren F1's fan under the car, the EVO's AYC system, cars with air brakes, and movable aero parts. Depending on how those are calculated in the game's physics engine, results could differ a lot between games and reality.

 

[Jav]

Tiff Needell is pure science.

Seriously, Top Gear is good for a laugh, but I'm not going to confuse Jerry Claxon yelling his head off in a sports car with a serious car digestion.

Lol!! You gotta love Top Gear! And come on, the power lap is the power lap, they do everything they can to keep things equal for every car. Yes it is only good for telling you how quick a car is in that particular track, but what other resources do we have? Honestly? It's not science but like I said before it's the best data bank we have.

 

[GT55YW]

It also puts it higher up on FM4's list, as the info I have posted a little further down will show you.

From Under the Hood: Part 2 on Forzamotorsport.net:


For real-world data, honestly Top Gear laptimes are a good benchmark, regardless of what nay-sayers have to say about it. They're a good place to start because they're basically the only semi-controlled database of laptimes for that broad of a range of cars that's readily available.
If you don't trust that, then look for older car magazines where they do a track test of the GT or the R8, and see if you can find track tests for both of them at the same track. Road & Track does these sorts of test pretty regularly, but I don't know even still if both cars have been run professionally at the same track other than the TGTT....

Honestly, I would not care to comment on that. Remember that every time the cars change gear, the R8 will be making up something like .05 seconds at least on the GT because the GT has a clutch pedal and an H=pattern gearbox vs. the R8's dual-clutch flappy-paddle system. That alone will make a pretty serious difference to the laptimes.

That's completely reasonable. The R8 has a LOT going for it, but between the torque and a few really little things all put together, I'd bet GT. Though I wouldn't be amazed if the R8 won. And at the end of the day, I think about the history of the GT, how old it is in the sense of basic technology, and I like to think it can handle an italian punk lambo with a round body.

Especially with that darn good all wheel drive system.

It has nothing to do with realism just a class system. It is not really important and should not be taken too seriously.

Well that is what this thread is about...

 

[GT55YW]

Does Kaz own a Ford GT?

For some reason I thought he has a few, but I am fairly sure he has at least one. I think during the storms in Japan somebody asked if his GTs were okay and people were complaining. I mean, you can replace people, they reproduce. But a Ford GT...

And if you remember/played GT4, it had the GT on the cover. It seems he gets a bit obsessed with the cover cars. At least with the GT, and the SLS 300 remake. Even though I've never driven either, they appear to be pretty sweet rides lol

 

[88FoxBodyFan]

In this interview, he talks about some of the cars he has:
http://cars.ign.com/articles/744/744294p3.html

Or it may be had. This interview happened before Gran Turismo HD came out.

 

[niky]

I'm sorry, but this thread retreads same ground laid down in older threads across the board, and really, like Star Trek, it's not going anywhere we haven't gone at least a dozen times before.