Inacurate steering simulation with wheel

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ebart

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For starters: I've followed all the menu translations and do believe I've set my wheel in "simulation" mode and disabled all assisting stuff.

When using a wheel the steering is still badly simulated. When steering slightly all goes well. But, as soon as you make a full turn with the wheel the behavior is all wrong. The car will continue steering even though the front wheels should be skidding straight ahead! It's as if there's some sort of "maximum steering angle". Beyond this point all steering input is ignored and the car will steer at the current physical limitation of the front wheels. This results in a very unnatural driving experience IMHO. It seems this behavior is also in effect when you're trying to counter-steer the car out of an over-steer situation. At some point it'll just ignore all input, forcing the car in a 180 situation.

Can anyone confirm this behavior or is it just me?
 
I don't really understand what you mean, but from the sounds of it I don't experience these problems.
 
ebart
For starters: I've followed all the menu translations and do believe I've set my wheel in "simulation" mode and disabled all assisting stuff.

When using a wheel the steering is still badly simulated. When steering slightly all goes well. But, as soon as you make a full turn with the wheel the behavior is all wrong. The car will continue steering even though the front wheels should be skidding straight ahead! It's as if there's some sort of "maximum steering angle". Beyond this point all steering input is ignored and the car will steer at the current physical limitation of the front wheels. This results in a very unnatural driving experience IMHO. It seems this behavior is also in effect when you're trying to counter-steer the car out of an over-steer situation. At some point it'll just ignore all input, forcing the car in a 180 situation.

Can anyone confirm this behavior or is it just me?
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the what now?


and what wheel are you using?
 
You mean like this, don't you?

Full 450º to the left.

I noticed it too and I don't like it at all. It happens everywhere, not only in the banked corners.

My set up is a g25, clutch and H shifter enabled, soft feedback, steering type on simulation, no driving aids, driving mode on profesional and N3 tyres.
 
Oh you mean the ingame animation stops at 90 degree left or right? Yeah its alittle annoying but should be fixed with a update or by GT5 release.
 
It has nothing to do with the animation. It's the steering angle, the tyre's steering angle, not the wheel's steering angle.

If you full lock your car's steering angle, the car should end up going straight because of the lack of grip available for cornering.
 
dark_ruffo
It has nothing to do with the animation. It's the steering angle, the tyre's steering angle, not the wheel's steering angle.

If you full lock your car's steering angle, the car should end up going straight because of the lack of grip available for cornering.
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You obviously dont have the game in full simulaiton setup, thats the first thing...

The second is that depending on the speed you are driving, the tyres installed on the car, the road surface and whether it is a front drive or rear drive car, you would not be able to just "yank the wheel" full lock.

How much real world driving have youdone? I only ask, because tere are very few times where yanking the wheel will result in your car just sliding forward - other than on ice.

Pretty much every other time you do a full lock turn with the steering wheel, the car will have some attitude change, then it may display severe understeer - again, depending on the surface, tyres, speed and drive type.
 
I know what he's saying. At least I think I do.

Most games do steering in a kind of squirrely fashion, in that the faster you go, the steering code accomodates the speed factor in the steering, so that it makes the steering much less the faster you drive. Otherwise you'd have to be making very slight turns, and in GT, you can crank the wheel a lot to force a car to turn. And at high speeds, like over 120kph/80mph or so, a sharp angle on the wheel really should spin you out or send you flying straight. Instead, it just emphasizes the turn until understeering results and you tend to go straight anyway.

But as I say, Gran Turismo and other games for the most part have always driven like this.
 
You obviously dont have the game in full simulaiton setup, thats the first thing...
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I do. I read every translation guide here and there and I pretty sure that everything is set in full sim.

TV2007122709110700.jpg

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The second is that depending on the speed you are driving, the tyres installed on the car, the road surface and whether it is a front drive or rear drive car, you would not be able to just "yank the wheel" full lock.
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If you watch the video closely you can see i'm doing almost 240kph/150mph when I locked the wheels, If that's not enough speed to at least experience some understeering or loose control a bit...

The surface is tarmac, I'm on N3 tyres, not the best tyres around, and it's an NSX so it must be RWD.

How much real world driving have youdone? I only ask, because tere are very few times where yanking the wheel will result in your car just sliding forward - other than on ice.
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I can't really say I'm a high spec real life driver nor have a Z06, but I do know how a car should handle in certain conditions.
 
If you watch the video closely you can see i'm doing almost 240kph/150mph when I locked the wheels, If that's not enough speed to at least experience some understeering or loose control a bit...
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yeah, but why would you do that anyway? ;)
 
yeah, but why would you do that anyway?
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You have a point :P

I never did that before, I was just proving his theory. I first noticed it on Fuji, on the long uphill corner, no matter what I do on that corner, the car never experience serious oversteering, it just looses a bit of speed.

This just doesn't feel right:

http://www.mediafire.com/?fgccvlvjhjg

Same settings as before, but this time i was on R3 tyres.

Maybe is an extreme, unusual situation, but still, you feel something like this on some "GT situations".
 
Yeah now I know what you mean, I never thought about it really before because I don't put myself in those situations. If I run out of front grip I don't keep turning.

Can you make a short video about this Fugi oversteer problem you speak of?
 
I'm sorry if my initial post was a bit vague. But you guys seem to get the point. (It's tough to detect and translate certain behavior into words when English isn't your native language). The annoying thing is that certain wheel angles should always correspond to certain steering (tire) angles. Now GT somehow overrules my desired input and makes up its own angle for me. This really blows away the whole simulation aspect of the game. I really hope they fix this.

I can imagine such behavior should be necessary when using a controller for input. So perhaps wheel input uses the same behavior as controller input?
 
Well the actual wheel angle do follow your steering input still (using a wheel, not controller), check dark_ruffo's second video of the audi you can see the wheels hard turned well past anything usable. Problem is the car doesnt loose any more steering grip as of they werent turned full lock.

Hmm I'm going to do some tests myself later.
 
VIPERGTSR01
I never thought about it really before because I don't put myself in those situations. If I run out of front grip I don't keep turning.
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So do I. I try to avoid any "tyre screech" as much as I can, lifting my foot off the pedal or stopping turning hard or shifting to next gear to get some wheigth shift that helps me turn tighter. But that's not the whole point.

Say you are driving a RWD and you brake hard on a tight 1st or 2nd gear corner from 5th gear while turning, in GT you never fully lock your rear wheel tyres due to heavy engine breaking, it is almost imposible to spin out because of this, so it's imposible get the car acting like some sort of pendulum with the wheight shifted to the front and the locked rear tyres acting like they were an axis, the only thing you get in this situation is some nasty understeering and that's all. I think this problem is kinda related to this sort of "endless grip" stuff.

Can you make a short video about this Fugi oversteer problem you speak of?
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Sorry, I meant understeer, and it's the same as the previous videos, the car keeps turning while smoking the tyres no matter what.
 
dark_ruffo
You have a point :P

I never did that before, I was just proving his theory. I first noticed it on Fuji, on the long uphill corner, no matter what I do on that corner, the car never experience serious oversteering, it just looses a bit of speed.

This just doesn't feel right:

http://www.mediafire.com/?fgccvlvjhjg

Same settings as before, but this time i was on R3 tyres.

Maybe is an extreme, unusual situation, but still, you feel something like this on some "GT situations".
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How are you doing that?

That is also an extreme example of understeering - you have the car at full steering lock and it is not turning - I understood the topic openers post as asking why extreme understeer was not possible, and you have just displayed an example of extreme understeer.

I have now set the online fastest time for Daytona Infield in the Z06, Viper and Mustang - as well as pretty fast times for the 599. F430 and the Audi - fully manual with G25 and all asisits off. (manual clutch on for appropriate cars - flappy paddle for others)

The only copout I took was to set Simulation to Option in Driving setup to Standard instead of Simulation. This has allowed me to creat and have very smooth ghosts to lead me when set to Simulation mode.

But anyway, in either mode if I either wildly swing the wheel or input absurd steering input like that the car is unmanagable.

I am not experiencing any of the issues youguys are describing - on the contrary, the "feedback" and behaviour of the simulaiton cars is very close to the way I would expect them to behave n real life.

Is this a "realisic simulator"? No - it is an absurdly realisticly modeleed GAME that i sheaps fun to play.

Is it a perfect on-console rendition of a reality physics engine? No - it is a very well done compromise that when fed inputs within the realm of reality and appropriatness behaves really well ;)
 
RC45
...I have now set the online fastest time for Daytona Infield in the Z06, Viper and Mustang - as well as pretty fast times for the 599. F430 and the Audi - fully manual with G25 and all asisits off. (manual clutch on for appropriate cars - flappy paddle for others)
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I am sure this part is very essential and helpful in answering his question. 👍
 
Rocket Punch
I am sure this part is very essential and helpful in answering his question. 👍
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If you are being sarcastic then the below response is for you - if you are not being sarcastic, read it anyway, you might learn something.. ;)

Actually that part goes directly to answering his concern - I don't need to brag abotu it, as anyone online will see it - but if you were actually playing the game you would know that :P.

I have real world high speed track experience - and am able to translate those experiences and abilities directly to input in the game and be very fast with fully manual options - even in vehicles in the game that I have real world hands on experience with and will this be basing my input and driving style on these learned memories of the cars themselves (in other words, I am driving the car not the game).

That goes directly to addressing the topic openers concerns about "how real it feels".

The point? The point is that the "game" is real feeling and responsive enough in those arenas, areas, envelopes and ranges of inputs that count and matter.

I am sure you are aware that the entire Polyphony team have many thousands of hours of REAL WORLD racetrack experience among themslevs and know how a car should react and feel in various situations - why would they try model anything other than "real feeling" parameters?

While the Prologue (emphasised to indicate that this game is a work in progress) may not be perfect, it has all the elements for a fun, realistic-like experience - even for people who have done the real thing - so I find it quite amusing that "wannabes' are sitting and criticising the the "feel" of simulated events they themselves have never experienced.

Capish? :)
 
Thanx for pointing that out RC45. But basically you're admitting what we're already saying. Namely that GT steering "simulation" is not accurate. That was exactly the point we were trying to make!

Although I have had my share of speeding luxury cars when I worked at a valet parking service at Schiphol airport for 1 year, you're probably right that you have more "real life" driving experience than most of us do. I'll even admit I'm a "wannabe" race driver! (Why else would I be playing GT Prologue?)

I do however want to point out that I know a great deal about computer software too. (It's what I currently do for work.) I also have my share of experience with racing simulators (and lots of other games). I, for example, know there are other simulators out there that have by far exceeded the racing simulation experience I found in GT. If you want to know what I'm talking about I suggest you have a go at Live For Speed (http://www.lfs.net/). They've managed to successfully simulate the steering experience. If they can do it (with just 3 developers) I expect a game like GT Prologue to, at least, follow suit. Especially when you claim your game is "THE REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR".

Capish? ;)
 
For some examples on proper understeer bahavior here are some "real life" videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGSnLGgeai8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCuSh9FB-n0
http://www.yorkregionsavealife.ca/erase/Video/Driving/Understeer Part 2_e.wmv

So basically, with an understeer situation, I believe the correct behavior should be: The car skidding ahead in a straight line. As soon as the front wheels regain grip (either by steering less or by braking), you get a sudden "jerk" and the car starts to steer in the proper direction again. I couldn't find this behavior in GT5 Prologue.

I haven't tried the "professional" setting yet. (It's currently set at "simulate") I'll try that soon and post back the results.
 
ebart
Thanx for pointing that out RC45. But basically you're admitting what we're already saying. Namely that GT steering "simulation" is not accurate. That was exactly the point we were trying to make!

Although I have had my share of speeding luxury cars when I worked at a valet parking service at Schiphol airport for 1 year, you're probably right that you have more "real life" driving experience than most of us do. I'll even admit I'm a "wannabe" race driver! (Why else would I be playing GT Prologue?)

I do however want to point out that I know a great deal about computer software too. (It's what I currently do for work.) I also have my share of experience with racing simulators (and lots of other games). I, for example, know there are other simulators out there that have by far exceeded the racing simulation experience I found in GT. If you want to know what I'm talking about I suggest you have a go at Live For Speed (http://www.lfs.net/). They've managed to successfully simulate the steering experience. If they can do it (with just 3 developers) I expect a game like GT Prologue to, at least, follow suit. Especially when you claim your game is "THE REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR".

Capish? ;)
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And youpresume I don't have LFS, GTR, GTR2, GTL, Grand prix legends, rFactor etc etc etc as well?

And for the record LFS is good, but not the same thign as the real thing, and actually seems to over-model some aspects.

I just think you guys are all over analysing the product at hand - just enjoy it... lifes to short to complain about every bloody thing in existance. :)

ebart
So basically, with an understeer situation, I believe the correct behavior should be: The car skidding ahead in a straight line. As soon as the front wheels regain grip (either by steering less or by braking), you get a sudden "jerk" and the car starts to steer in the proper direction again. I couldn't find this behavior in GT5 Prologue.
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The odd thing is I am able to get exactly that response and behaviour in GT5P - how else do you think I (and others) are able to drive GT5P as quickly as we can using a steering wheel and no aids?
 
RC45
And you presume I don't have LFS, GTR, GTR2, GTL, Grand prix legends, rFactor etc etc etc as well?

And for the record LFS is good, but not the same thign as the real thing, and actually seems to over-model some aspects.

The odd thing is I am able to get exactly that response and behaviour in GT5P - how else do you think I (and others) are able to drive GT5P as quickly as we can using a steering wheel and no aids?
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The reason your lap times are so good is because Gran Turismo physics aren't accurate. If they where accurate you'd probably suck as much as you do with your real life driving.

RC45
I just think you guys are all over analysing the product at hand - just enjoy it... lifes to short to complain about every bloody thing in existance. :)
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I enjoy over analyzing every aspect of racing simulators (and other things in life). I'm also hoping this feedback finds its way to the creators of this wonderful game. Perhaps they'll use it to improve it. If you don't like it I suggest you go to some other forum and brag about your great racing skills over there.
 
RC45
And for the record LFS is good, but not the same thign as the real thing, and actually seems to over-model some aspects.
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I agree completely

RC45
just enjoy it... lifes to short to complain about every bloody thing in existance. :)
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I don't really mind the over analyising, good to bring these small things to light but I do agree with just enjoying while your at it.


ebart
The reason your lap times are so good is because Gran Turismo physics aren't accurate.
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Well, not to mention the zero fear factor, no way I would enter corners or go over undulating roads as fast as I do in game, in real life.
 
VIPERGTSR01
Well, not to mention the zero fear factor, no way I would enter corners or go over undulating roads as fast as I do in game, in real life.
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And if you ever do get into an understeer situation in real life I suggest you don't ever rely on the reaction skills you've picked up with GT5 Prologue!

VIPERGTSR01
but I do agree with just enjoying while your at it.
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I don't have a problem with "arcade" style driving games. Personally I don't like them much. But if people enjoy that they should go ahead and have a blast. It's a matter of taste.

I do however have a problem with games claiming to be real driving simulators while they're not. On the one hand because it's simply not true. I'm expecting something that I'm not getting. On the other hand it could also be considered dangerous and life threatening. If the physics aren't as good as the creators claim it to be, people might get hurt in real life expecting some unrealistic behavior. Of course you should never rely on your game skills in real life. But if we're talking about a real life "simulator" those skills should apply in both worlds.
 
my only problem's with steering wheels is that on forza 2 if you use the standard steering wheel for the 360 you have to turn off all the aids or else it's too hard to drive

Too hard!

you spin out and do donuts just fine but otherwise it's bass ackwards.
 
I thought the simulation, professional, or amauter settings didn't apply to the G25 wheel or DFP. Isn't that why the DFP wheel is greyed out when selecting one of the steering input types?

Ever way I don't feel any discomfronts using the G25. Now that you can increase the steering feedback strength all the way up to 10 it feels great!
 

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