Influx in Uber-4X4's

[Danny]

What's with the sudden array of fast 4X4's? I'm not complaining, but they all seem to come along at once!

My pick would be the Volvo XC90 PUV (concept for now, but about 70% likely to make it into production). It's gorgeous, and makes fun of Ferrari with the "Prancing Moose"

 

[1X83Z]

The "XC90 PUV" will not make it into production in that form, though a V8 XC90 will indeed see production soon as a 2006 model.

You forgot the Saturn Vue V6.

And the Mercedes G55 AMG, but those are just scary.

 

[ND4SPD]

I vote for the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, since it has great on road performance, and also great off-road performance.

 

[neanderthal]

definition of oxymoron in my dictionary; high performance 4X4.
as far as im concerned a real 4X4 should be able to crawl at 3mph for hours on end over boulders bigger than a ford fiestas wheel.

i see the poll is for favorite 4X4, not high performance, although the title says high perfomance.

i nominate the mercedes benz/ puch gelaendewagen, mid nineties vintage, not the troubled G500 we've been seeing everywhere. preferably 3.0 liter 6 cyl diesel engine.


i also nominate the sixties/ seventies vintage 404 series unimogs. the newer variants, while more capable, are just too industrial looking.


and pretty much any pinzgauer, thats not a 6X6 version.


and the jeep wrangler rubicon which you all know


if you're talking high performance SUV/ thing, then i nominate the V12 LMP powered BMW X5 lemans that hans stuck piloted around the 'ring a few years ago.

 

[neanderthal]

I vote for the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, since it has great on road performance, and also great off-road performance.

underscore mine

where d'you hear that?

 

[Danny]

High performance 4x4's are both an Oxymoron and a Paradox

 

[ND4SPD]

underscore mine

where d'you hear that?

Umm, somewhere on a TV show, like car and driver, and motortrend.
You know what, forget about it, I think they were talking about the Toureg, wait they are using the same chassis aren't they?

 

[Cosmic]

Volvo XC90 PUV 👍
Looks different , but it's awesome!

 

[Famine]

Sorry, but the pictures in the poll aren't quite big enough for dial-up users. Can we have them seven times as wide, please?

 

[1X83Z]

underscore mine

where d'you hear that?

I owned one with stock wheels and tyres that spent 75% of its time in semi-serious off-road use and it performed completely flawlessly. Anyone who says it's not a good off-roader is simply incorrect.

Sorry, but the pictures in the poll aren't quite big enough for dial-up users. Can we have them seven times as wide, please?

I was thinking the same thing - it's as if he searched under Google Images for the largest possible picture of each vehicle he could find.

 

[ShobThaBob]

I owned one with stock wheels and tyres that spent 75% of its time in semi-serious off-road use and it performed completely flawlessly. Anyone who says it's not a good off-roader is simply incorrect.



I was thinking the same thing - it's as if he searched under Google Images for the largest possible picture of each vehicle he could find.

What is this "serious offroading" mean to a person who buys E55s and 350zs? Did your driveway have some pebbles on it or something? Try taking it into the mud, like a real man would.

 

[1X83Z]

What is this "serious offroading" mean to a person who buys E55s and 350zs? Did your driveway have some pebbles on it or something? Try taking it into the mud, like a real man would.

I said 'semi-serious' off-roading, and I've never owned an E55 - much to my dismay.

I owned 200 acres in Tennessee, it saw pretty much all 200 of those acres. Simple stuff like grass to hard stuff like steep mud hills (up and down) and rather large ditches that I thought would smash in the bumper and set off the airbags. It did fairly well in shallow water with mud underneath, too (no higher than a foot - there wasn't much water on the property). And it never lost traction on the 0.75-mile dirt road leading up to the house, even if it was muddy or I was going too fast.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Coulda sworn you had, but oh well. I suppose the C43 AMG works just as well in the example. I figured that those trucks were fairly decent offroad, but I didnt think that they performed that nice. Quite impressive.

 

[TsLeng]

The Volvo....looks kick-ass.

 

[TheCracker]

High performance 4x4's are both an Oxymoron and a Paradox

...apart from the Lamborghini LM002 - as tough as a Hummer (and i'm not talking about the yuppie H2) but with Countach V12 power! - makes the rest look like Suzuki Rhinos

 

[neanderthal]

i guess your definition of serious off roading is different from mine. the pics with the g-wagen and pinz nearly approximate what i call serious off roading. as for the pics, since the poll itself had them i figured why not. i shall remove them.

 

[1X83Z]

i guess your definition of serious off roading is different from mine. the pics with the g-wagen and pinz nearly approximate what i call serious off roading. as for the pics, since the poll itself had them i figured why not. i shall remove them.

Show me exactly where I said 'serious off-roading.' Jesus Christ, I said it once, now I'm saying it again.

Oh, and, purist though you may think you are, the market has moved well beyond your archaic definitions of performance by segment. A real purist would keep up. SUVs are fast now, and yes, SUVs are better than alternatives. Since there AREN'T ANY alternatives. I know it's cool to knock the SUV, though - so you're okay.

 

[neanderthal]

post 5 i questioned where one (not you) had heard that the cayenne had "great off road performance." his, and my exact words. by great i meant great, not mild, not semi serious.
you later quoted me (post 10) in replying, albeit in regards to"semi serious off road use." i wasn't sure if you were, or weren't refuting my question. what was i to think? hence the mild resignation/ acceptance (post 16) "i guess your definition....."

the capability of these cars in mild offroad situations was not what i was questioning. after all, i have traversed trails and fire roads labelled "jeeps, 4X4s and dirtbikes only beyond this point" in my lowly 1976 BMW 2002. i am fully aware of mild off road situations are and how these vehicles, with greater ground clearance, bigger tires and all wheel drive capability, could safely negotiate thier way through them far more capably than my little car.

purist that i am, as you have scorned/ labelled me, i realise that there are more capable ways of moving fast. and carrying stuff. and even of doing it at the same time. a five series or E class wagon with the V8 has nigh on the same carrying capacity and performance. for less money. and only slightly less off roadability if truth be told.


incidentally, a real purist would decry the blurring of the lines, not embrace it.

i also realise that SUVs are nothing but todays version of the station wagon/ minivan. designed to carry stuff and people. todays crop of SUVs, especially the car based ones, have compromised thier offroad capability for on road manners. but that understandable since most of them arent taken off road anyway. which is why vehicles like the CR-V and RX330 are so popular. after all they are nothing but dressed up versions of plebian commuter cars.

manufacturer takes a car, raises ground clearance, adds bigger tires, changes body panels, possibly adds an all wheel drive option, sells it as a truck to reduce the CAFE. manufacturers win coz they sell the more expensive version. joe consumer wins coz he has a 4X4. now he can go hunting and fishing and do all sort of other things to validate his manhood. and jane consumer can revel in the utility as she safely takes the kids to school while lording it over the unwashed masses in their puny low slung cars. together they can go on vacations and keep one step ahead of the joneses. the feds win coz industry is keeping its regulations. regulations that allow the PT cruiser, a neon based car, to be labelled as a truck. see everybody wins.

except in essence they are not really 4X4s. they are more like all wheel drive tall wagons.
"purist" that i am, i see that. and im not fooled. if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, im not callin it a turkey just coz some PR guy says it is.

nota bene; no need to get snippy. im not a fool.

 

[Firebird]

i guess your definition of serious off roading is different from mine. the pics with the g-wagen and pinz nearly approximate what i call serious off roading. as for the pics, since the poll itself had them i figured why not. i shall remove them.

Noooooo!!

You removed the pics of the only good vehicles in this thread!

 

[neanderthal]

i just cant do it right, can i?

click on links.

 

[1X83Z]

post 5 i questioned where one (not you) had heard that the cayenne had "great off road performance." his, and my exact words. by great i meant great, not mild, not semi serious.
you later quoted me (post 10) in replying, albeit in regards to"semi serious off road use." i wasn't sure if you were, or weren't refuting my question. what was i to think? hence the mild resignation/ acceptance (post 16) "i guess your definition....."

I said 'great' and 'semi-serious'. You then said that my definition of 'serious' was different from yours. I'm sure we've got differing definitions for a lot of words - but let's try to stick to those that are relevant.

purist that i am, as you have scorned/ labelled me, i realise that there are more capable ways of moving fast. and carrying stuff. and even of doing it at the same time. a five series or E class wagon with the V8 has nigh on the same carrying capacity and performance. for less money. and only slightly less off roadability if truth be told.

This is total bull****, and I know it because I was just shopping in this segment. The E500 4Matic wagon is $60000. That's the BASE PRICE. And it's got less stuff than my $46400 ML500. Which includes less carrying capacity and less off-road and winter-weather abilities that it loses due to its lack of ground clearance. I'm sick and tired of people believing that just because it's smaller, it's cheaper. I wanted an E500 wagon, I looked hard at it and even considered buying one, price difference be damned. But push to shove, it's an awful value. Check the facts before making statements like that.

incidentally, a real purist would decry the blurring of the lines, not embrace it.

A real purist would realise there's more to cars now than rear-wheel drive and a manual transmission.

except in essence they are not really 4X4s. they are more like all wheel drive tall wagons.

So what?

There are NO wagons on sale anymore. And fewer than none with all-wheel drive (there's two - Outback and Magnum, plus Passat but it's more expensive). EVEN IF YOU WANT A WAGON, you're pretty much forced to buy an SUV. I'm tired of making this point to people who piss and moan about how popular SUVs are. THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVES. And, as you said, everybody wins - SO WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE SHUT THE **** UP? "I can't see over them in traffic" is just as stupid excuse to hate SUVs as "I need them for my kids" is to buy one.

By the way, this isn't personal to you, I'm just sick of all the anti-SUV crap. I considered nearly every alternative before I finally got this - but the winters up here are hell, and I ended up forsaking some performance and "cachet" for ground clearance (and let's be honest, there's more charismatic SUVs out there, since this has just entered its eighth year without a redesign). I even looked at the Ford Freestyle, but it wasn't quick enough.

 

[Firebird]

There are NO wagons on sale anymore. And fewer than none with all-wheel drive (there's two - Outback and Magnum, plus Passat but it's more expensive). EVEN IF YOU WANT A WAGON, you're pretty much forced to buy an SUV. I'm tired of making this point to people who piss and moan about how popular SUVs are. THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVES.

Minivans.

Granted, you can't get a V8-powered minivan (but one is probably on the way), but it still does everything an SUV does. In fact, minivans handle better, get better fuel mileage, carry more passengers and cargo...

I know they're not "cool", but they are more practical alternatives.

 

[neanderthal]

i dont think in terms of new cars. i always think used cars, not new cars. i would never buy a new car; what horrendous way to flush money down the toilet; so forgive my pricing differentials. i was thinking more along the lines of E34/39 wagon and W124/210 wagons. not the current crop. heck, the models of 4X4s i listed are all pretty much dead or due for renewal.

as for availablity of wagons, theres plenty. in very small segments. like the entry lux (merc c class, audi A4, BMW 3series etc) and the koreans make some. big ones, you really only have the magnum and subaru, if that even qualifies. problem is that so many people are buying SUVs at the prices that the big ones would go for that there really isnt a viable market for them. im sure manufacturing costs, lower CAFE standards for trucks, profitability etc all play a role in why there no big wagons. im just waiting for the magnum to be a roaring success and everybody else to jump in again.
problem is there are few manufacturers with big brass ones who are willing to take the leap. chrysler has historically (last 20 years) been succesful going where no one has gone before. when GM has done it, they have done it in a most awful manner (aztek) and ford really hasnt had any category busters since the original taurus.

as for being anti SUV, im not. they have thier place, and as long as its not in front of me i really dont care two bits either way. i could spout a whole lot of anti ....(<insert car category there) for any category of vehicle. just because there is a lot of (valid) anti SUV stuff out there, doesnt mean im on some bandwagon and it doesnt make it any less true.

good for you for searching for alternatives. most people would simply assume that an SUV will fit their needs and go buy one. then moan and whine about fuel economy, insurance rates, manouverability, choppy ride etc. like it or not, those bugs/ issues are real, and they are the reason why so many car based utes are becoming prevalent.

 

[1X83Z]

Minivans.

Minivans aren't built with all-wheel drive anymore. Currently, there's one - and it drives and looks like a bus. Plus, it's considerably more expensive than any small or midsize SUV if you want any sort of options (base on an AWD Toyota Sienna is $28100 - side airbags are $1610 on top of that already absurd figure). In a few weeks, there'll be four more - all the same GM design, of course - but they've all got severe deficits in areas that SUVs make up. Really, there are only the following viable alternatives to midsize SUVs:

- Dodge Magnum
- Subaru Outback
- Toyota Sienna

If you happen to not like the fact that only hicks buy the Magnum, or the high base price on the Sienna, you're left with either the Outback or about thirty SUVs.

i dont think in terms of new cars. i always think used cars, not new cars. i would never buy a new car; what horrendous way to flush money down the toilet;

Actually, I agree completely. I don't think I will ever understand the purchase of a brand-new base model car with crank windows, hubcaps, manual mirrors, when, for the same price, you could have a heavily-depreciated four-year-old German car with "top spec" for the 2001 market. People claim they need a "new car" but cars today are reliable.

I had to buy new in this case though - I owned a 1999 ML430 in 2002 and had nothing but problems with it. When I searched for a good snow vehicle for this winter with some performance and safety, it came down to the ML500, or the BMW X5 4.8is and Infiniti FX45, both of which have performance-rated tires which I don't trust in the snow. So I decided to violate my 'never buy European cars new' rule and get it, hoping that a new model would remain reliable. No problems in the first month-ish...

as for availablity of wagons, theres plenty. in very small segments. like the entry lux (merc c class, audi A4, BMW 3series etc) and the koreans make some. big ones, you really only have the magnum and subaru, if that even qualifies.

No AWD. The base Audi A4 Avant with AWD starts at $29200 without leather or power seats. Not that you need that stuff, but most models have it, so good luck finding one at a dealer with a sticker price under $30500. The base 3-series wagon is $32600 without leather or a trip computer, same story for BMW but change '$30500' to '$34500'. And Mercedes has their cheapest in at $35400, much the same story. All this is significant because you can get a CR-V EX with every option (automatic transmission) for just $22600, or go midsize and get a Nissan Murano SL, with an unbelievable standard spec list, for $29800.

 

[TurboLevin2NV]

Voted for the Touareg just because we own one. And it looks better than all of them.