Interested in new car.

[Geeky1]

I'm going to let you in on something. Mercedes-Benz, BMW, VAG Group, etc. answer to the same type of bean counters that Ford and GM do. In fact, Chrysler answers to the same EXACT GERMAN bean counters as Mercedes since they have been the same company for some time now. What do you think? That Germans don't want to make money??

I hate to burst your bubble, but any knowledgable German car enthusiast will tell you cost cutting measures are all over their beloved vehicles.

You're absolutely right. Cost cutting is quite apparent in a lot of newer German cars. The build quality and the quality of the materials used in a lot of newer German cars is not what it used to be. And yes, the Americans and the Japanese are both much better than they were... the Japanese in particular.

Take a look at this quote from a Consumeraffairs.com article:

Conventional wisdom said that dependability was the property of the Japanese and Europeans," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates.

"While that’s still true for automakers like Toyota and Honda, it’s no longer the case for many of the Europeans. Porsche, Jaguar, Saab and BMW perform well above the industry average in dependability, but many other European brands are bought based on a reputation for long-term quality and fall far short of even the average. This is in stark contrast to the results of the first vehicle dependability study, conducted in 1990, when Mercedes-Benz led the industry."

-http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/jdpower.html

This trend is not evident on the higher end BMWs and Mercedes yet in my experience though. My grandparents have a 2003 S600... problems in the last two years? 0. They also have a 2005 Cayenne Turbo... problems in the past 8 months? 0. And they have a 1997 SL500 40th anniversary edition... problems in the past 8 years? 1 (the battery wouldn't stay charged).

If you're buying a new C or E class, a 3 series or a 5 series... yeah, I'd say that the American and Japanese cars are probably going to be more reliable. But with an S, SL, or CL... I don't think you'll have any more problems than you would with an American car, and I suspect that it's the same for the 6 and 7 series and the Z8...

The other issue here is that when Cadillac started switching to FWD, they lost any and all credibility they had with me. And whether the new STS is a decent car or not is really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. A few years from now I'll look at Cadillac again. In the meantime, I'm still pissed at them for the Allante, the 1st generation STS, the Catera (which, while not FWD, was never very highly regarded by the automotive press... at least not as I recall. My recollection is that C&D, R&T and MT didn't really like it... they couldn't really find a lot wrong with it, but they didn't find much to like either), and the last Eldorado and Deville... One or two models that are supposed to be good (the new STS and CTS) won't change my opinion of them. If they continue to build decent cars for the next few years, then I'll give them another look. In the meantime... Bleh.

 

[McLaren]

Check out an Audi A8. E55, Quattroporte or M5 might be a little too sport biased for you.


M

What do you mean by that?

I think the Quattroporte would be perfect. Its a luxory (sp?) car, its got power, and that what he wants. He said he wanted something with over 320 horses.

 

[Geeky1]

The one thing the Quattroporte has going for it (if nothing else... I don't know a whole lot about it so I don't know how it performs or anything off the top of my head) is that it's a really, really good looking car.

 

[xcsti]

What do you mean by that?

I think the Quattroporte would be perfect. Its a luxory (sp?) car, its got power, and that what he wants. He said he wanted something with over 320 horses.

It is more on the sporty end of the spectrum (not that that is a bad thing), I remember readin that it was designed to feel as close to a mid engined sports car as possible. I believe the weight bias is towards the rear. Excellent and quite good looking car though.

 

[///M-Spec]

What do you mean by that?

It's a cost/benefit analysis. He listed his priorities as "4 doors, power, and a good set of luxury." Handling, balance, dynamic range, driver involvement is not anywhere on that list.

Based on the other things he has written, it seems to me that the compromises cars like the M5, E55 or Quattroporte make in order to perform the sport side of the equation (lumpy ride, low profile tire noise, etc.) would not be worth the unrealized benefits in performance or the drawbacks in comfort and luxury.... to your friend.

The A8 has 335 hp, is drop dead gorgeous, has a terrific interior and is loaded with all the luxury geegaws anyone might want. Plus, it's fairly rare... at least in my neck of the woods.

I admit I have not even sat in one, but the Quattroporte does nothing for me personally. However, on paper, it certainly has the goods to deliver in this class.


M

 

[McLaren]

It's a cost/benefit analysis. He listed his priorities as "4 doors, power, and a good set of luxury." Handling, balance, dynamic range, driver involvement is not anywhere on that list.

Based on the other things he has written, it seems to me that the compromises cars like the M5, E55 or Quattroporte make in order to perform the sport side of the equation (lumpy ride, low profile tire noise, etc.) would not be worth the unrealized benefits in performance or the drawbacks in comfort and luxury.... to your friend.

The A8 has 335 hp, is drop dead gorgeous, has a terrific interior and is loaded with all the luxury geegaws anyone might want. Plus, it's fairly rare... at least in my neck of the woods.

I admit I have not even sat in one, but the Quattroporte does nothing for me personally. However, on paper, it certainly has the goods to deliver in this class.


M

OH ok. He told me (in person) about it being a daily driver, but I guess he didn't post anything about.

I don't no what would be worse as a daily driver. The Maserati or his Viper.

 

[BMW M-Lover]

OK, so I've taken a look at some of the cars you all suggested and have checked them all. Unfornately, some like Maserati, I could not test drive.

Unfornately, Micheal (M-Lover Owner), got fired from Ferrari and could have been able to make it so I might have gotten some deal. But he has been watching Lamborghini and will let me know if a used Maserati Quattroporte comes in.


Anyways, I have formed a bond with the S-Class Mercedes. The car is beautiful and something I want. The cornering is amazing and simply stunning, and speed is great. I love the pickup of the S-Class cars.

So far, I have tested an S4, Cayenne Turbo, (Audi and Porsche share a Boardwalk dealer, so I though, what the hell.) 330i, S500, and even a CLS500 AMG.

 

[1X83Z]

I'd go Daewoo.

Straight Daewoo.

Chris Isaak went to the University of the Pacific.

And someone with $70-$90 to spend on a new sedan shouldn't be addressing a Gran Turismo car forum.

 

[RxQueen_2.5RS]

As far as I'm concerned, most Cadillacs, like the vast majority of American cars in general, always have been, are now, and likely always will be vastly inferior to their European and Japanese counterparts. But that's just my opinion... I have reasons for why I feel that way (which I don't really feel like going into right now), but you are obviously entitled to disagree with me.

It may be your opinion, but it's a completely asinine one. Recent automotive studies have shown your beloved european cars to now be among the worst in terms of reliability. Namely Volkswagon, which took honors as the most broken-down car manufacturer in the world last year. But hey, it's your opinion, and that makes it right in your mind. It's my opinion that I'm the most magnificent lover who has ever lived...

Anways...how about an Audi S8 or RS4? You don't have too many options for a luxury/sport car in that price range other than BMW, Mercedes, and Audi. Since people have beaten to death the M5 option, why not consider a nice Audi. Even though, yes, they are made by VW as contrarian as that may sound to the previous paragraph. I still like them and the look.

 

[1X83Z]

It may be your opinion, but it's a completely asinine one. Recent automotive studies have shown your beloved european cars to now be among the worst in terms of reliability. Namely Volkswagon, which took honors as the most broken-down car manufacturer in the world last year.

Yeah, but you know who's fault that is?

And regarding Mercedes' drop in quality, I have another party to blame:

 

[1X83Z]

Hey, I'm sorry you don't like my opinion. Bite me.

Always a nice start.

This trend is not evident on the higher end BMWs and Mercedes yet in my experience though. My grandparents have a 2003 S600... problems in the last two years? 0. They also have a 2005 Cayenne Turbo... problems in the past 8 months? 0. And they have a 1997 SL500 40th anniversary edition... problems in the past 8 years? 1 (the battery wouldn't stay charged).

And I know two people that had older (fwd) STSes... both got rid of them because they had problems out the wazoo

You seem to enjoy using personal experience to clarify your points. STOP IT. No one cares that your grandparents experience no problems with their Mercedes while you know people with STSs who have had problems. Believe it or not, I experienced so many problems with my first Mercedes that I swore I'd never own another. And one of my least favorite people owns an '02 STS and has had nothing but good experiences. One of my friends has a '91 Deville and loves it. I myself owned an '04 SRX for a short time and loved it.

But personal experience should be completely irrelevant because they have nothing to do with the big picture. As I've just demonstrated, personal experiences can vary from person to person - where you've had good experiences I've had bad ones, and vice versa. That's why reliance on facts is more key than anything. Unfortunately, you already said your mind is made up, which means you're unwilling to look at facts that could be presented to the contrary.

By the way, had I taken your position in this discussion, I could've mentioned that after the bad experience I had with my first Mercedes I purchased three more with no problems and my current one is the best car I ever owned. I could've also mentioned that the first 2005 STS I saw on the street had a daytime running lamp burned out. Personal experience is the antithesis of factual reporting.

 

[McLaren]

I'd go Daewoo.

Straight Daewoo.

Chris Isaak went to the University of the Pacific.

And someone with $70-$90 to spend on a new sedan shouldn't be addressing a Gran Turismo car forum.

Well, he asked UCP only to get a flame war started.

Hopefully, Famine may come and help out.

 

[TVRKing]

2005 XJR
MSRP from $75,995*

With its 390-horsepower supercharged V8, R Performance tuned suspension, and Brembo® disc brakes, the XJR is a true performer.

Outside, 19-in. Performance wheels, a signature mesh grille, and unique badging highlight the XJR´s aggressive appearance. Xenon headlamps and radar-based adaptive cruise control are standard.

Inside, a 16-way power-adjustable seat envelops the driver while 3-stage heated front and rear seats soothe outboard passengers. A 320-watt Alpine® Premium Sound System is standard.

I remember showing you this in the convo thread, but I thought I'd post it here.

 

[Anderton Prime]

My grandparents have a 2003 S600... problems in the last two years? 0. They also have a 2005 Cayenne Turbo... problems in the past 8 months? 0. And they have a 1997 SL500 40th anniversary edition... problems in the past 8 years? 1 (the battery wouldn't stay charged).

Dude, I drive a 2002 Pontiac Sunfire. Problems in the past 2 1/2 years? 1. The rear brake rotors had to be machined. And the car only cost around US $13,000. And it's a GM. AND it's an entry-level Pontiac.

When my parents were shopping for a new car, the first place I took them was my favourite car company of all: the Mercedes dealership. We spent 15 minutes there before we learned that you get practically one notch above the base-models for US$60,000. The price of options was absolutely absurd. The reason Mercedes and BMW are starting to cut corners is because their cars are now WAY overpriced in the current market. Numerous other companies are coming up with cars that are for all intents and purposes nearly as good, for a lot less money.

So we went to the Chrysler dealership. Before 2004 we never would have been caught dead looking for an upper-class luxury sedan at a Chrysler dealership, but the 300C beckoned and we followed its call. We got a fully-loaded one and saved $20,000.

Cars are a money pit no matter where they are made.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Yeah, but you know who's fault that is?

So what? That doesn't change the fact that Volkswagen sucks now. It merely introduces a reason for it, one that cannot be changed. I used to like VWs. Now that they've become the preferred car of Apple iPod owners and pricks everywhere, I've made sure to steer clear. The price of a new Jetta is outrageous for the quality of car you get. For someone who thinks the way a car looks is on the bottom of buyers' list of priorities, could you please tell me why the hell people keep buying VWs if not for the sake of their image?

 

[Double_R]

Dude, I drive a 2002 Pontiac Sunfire. Problems in the past 2 1/2 years? 1. The rear brake rotors had to be machined. And the car only cost around US $13,000. And it's a GM. AND it's an entry-level Pontiac.

When my parents were shopping for a new car, the first place I took them was my favourite car company of all: the Mercedes dealership. We spent 15 minutes there before we learned that you get practically one notch above the base-models for US$60,000. The price of options was absolutely absurd. The reason Mercedes and BMW are starting to cut corners is because their cars are now WAY overpriced in the current market. Numerous other companies are coming up with cars that are for all intents and purposes nearly as good, for a lot less money.

So we went to the Chrysler dealership. Before 2004 we never would have been caught dead looking for an upper-class luxury sedan at a Chrysler dealership, but the 300C beckoned and we followed its call. We got a fully-loaded one and saved $20,000.

Cars are a money pit no matter where they are made.

This is widely known but at the end of the day. A fully loaded chryler is not even close to mercedes.

If money was no option you would have taken the mercedes. And the reason why they are so expensive is because of the badge and the exclusitivity. When you drive a mercedes you know that your car is more expensive than most other. A chrylser is like ford mondeo compared to a mercedes or BMW. And nearly every one on the planet wants to have a mercedes atleast once in their lifetime. A mercedes has a special auroa. People who dont know anythin at all about cars will get a BMW or Mercedes just because of their badge because they have built up a extremely good reputation over the yaers of making very good cars.Mercedes is helping to fund the failing manufactures of the daimlerchrylser group so obviously that shows they are going in the right direction.

And mercees and bmw are not cutting corners infact they are now raising the game again due to some criticsm of their interiors. We can expect faster cleaner and more fun to drive mercedes bmws and audis for years to come.

 

[Double_R]

Okay. You've both had a word in now. Let's not escalate this, please.





I'm going to let you in on something. Mercedes-Benz, BMW, VAG Group, etc. answer to the same type of bean counters that Ford and GM do. In fact, Chrysler answers to the same EXACT GERMAN bean counters as Mercedes since they have been the same company for some time now. What do you think? That Germans don't want to make money??

I hate to burst your bubble, but any knowledgable German car enthusiast will tell you cost cutting measures are all over their beloved vehicles.

My 1995 BMW M3, at the time, flagship of the M brand in the US and recipient of countless awards had a water pump with a impeller shaft made of PLASTIC. That's right. A critical engine component exposed to high stress and extreme temperate in the Ultimate Driving Machine was made of the same stuff they make Happy Meal toys out of. Why? They were too cheap to use aluminum. The result? Water pump failure ~50,000 miles. BMW didn't fix this until MY1997, 6 model years after they've been used in six-cylinder E36s.

I could make a list a mile long with other examples of frugalty and poor engineering choices in numerous BMWs (and Benzs and even Porsches). Ask a 318 owner about his/her profile gasket. Or a Boxster owner about the cheap plastic rear window or shoddily designed top mechanism or main crank seal that leaks oil. Or a 540i E34 V8 owner about his disintegrating nikasil engine block.

Mechanical reliability? I picked up my current car, a 2004 330i ZHP with 3 miles on the odometer. By 800 miles, both front brake rotors were warped. 800 Easy Break In Miles. At 3500 miles, a faulty ignition coil caused the car to run on 5 cylinders and scared the bejesus out of my wife because she thought she'd killed my brand new car. Don't even get me started on the ECU programming that causes the car to randomly STALL after a warm start on a hot day, which they just now fixed after the ZHP has been available for 1.5 years. Before you think that I bought a lemon, any cursory glance at a BMW website will show that plenty of late model BMW owners have little dumb problems like this. Ridiculous on a $40,000+ car that is near the end of it's model cycle. Ridiculous.

Yes, it drives like no other car and I love it despite it's shortcomings. Fact of the matter is BMW still designs cars that I want to drive. Putting it together well seems to be an issue for them, however. MB, Audi, etc have the same problems. GM, Ford and Chysler have come a long way since the '70s and '80s. If you think German build quality and mechanical reliability is far beyond US and Japanese counterparts, you really should get out in the real world sometime.




Truth > Dogma.


M

Why didnt you replace the car with a new one. Obviously that is a one off. And people will always critize the best more than the others just because your expecting more.

 

[Double_R]

Oh and for your moneys worth, I say you check out some mercedes amgs or bmw m5 but definetly the mercedes AMG range.And for a sports car check out porsche, or maybe some used lamborghinis.

 

[///M-Spec]

Why didnt you replace the car with a new one. Obviously that is a one off. And people will always critize the best more than the others just because your expecting more.

Why would I replace the entire car because it had one shoddily designed, shoddily built part?

And, absolutely I expect more out of a BMW than other cars. I paid a hefty premium to have one. Just like I would expect a Porterhouse to taste better than a Chuck Steak or a $60 bottle of wine to taste better than something that comes in a paper box.


M

 

[Double_R]

Why would I replace the entire car because it had one shoddily designed, shoddily built part?

And, absolutely I expect more out of a BMW than other cars. I paid a hefty premium to have one. Just like I would expect a Porterhouse to taste better than a Chuck Steak or a $60 bottle of wine to taste better than something that comes in a paper box.


M

I ment as in them giving you a new car. In germany if you buy a car barand new and it malfunctions several times they will replace it for you.

 

[Double_R]

AMG usa website : http://www.mbusa.com/amg/index.jsp

 

[Duke]

Double R, you've got the largest set of preconceived notions I've seen in quite some time. In fact, I came in here to try to discuss this topic, but with you involved, it's pointless. I'm not wasting my time going down that road again.

 

[///M-Spec]

I ment as in them giving you a new car. In germany if you buy a car barand new and it malfunctions several times they will replace it for you.

You must be talking about the 330i ZHP. There's no point in trying to get a new car from BMW because 1) the problems, while annoying, were not serious and fixed promptly under warranty 2) they are common ailments for late model E46s, so getting another one may net me nothing and 3) my car was special ordered and I don't want to wait another 10 weeks for them to build me another--even assuming I could get them to.

The car's been fine since those initial delivery problems were ironed out and I have been enjoying it quite a bit. But I would never brag to my friends about superior German Q.A. because it simply isn't there.

And the reason why they are so expensive is because of the badge and the exclusitivity. When you drive a mercedes you know that your car is more expensive than most other.

I've got say this is most shallow, insipid and insecure reason to buy anything, ever.


M

 

[xcsti]

This is widely known but at the end of the day. A fully loaded chryler is not even close to mercedes.

If money was no option you would have taken the mercedes. And the reason why they are so expensive is because of the badge and the exclusitivity. When you drive a mercedes you know that your car is more expensive than most other. A chrylser is like ford mondeo compared to a mercedes or BMW. And nearly every one on the planet wants to have a mercedes atleast once in their lifetime. A mercedes has a special auroa. People who dont know anythin at all about cars will get a BMW or Mercedes just because of their badge because they have built up a extremely good reputation over the yaers of making very good cars.Mercedes is helping to fund the failing manufactures of the daimlerchrylser group so obviously that shows they are going in the right direction.

And mercees and bmw are not cutting corners infact they are now raising the game again due to some criticsm of their interiors. We can expect faster cleaner and more fun to drive mercedes bmws and audis for years to come.

Do preconceptions about a company actually make the product better? No. I think I would rather have a couple extra grand in my pocket for a less flashy car than I would want a big merc.

And I don't think merc is going downhill because of cost cutting, I think it is more because of computerization. Almost every new mercedes is brimming with driving aids, dvd players, gps units, six cd changers, engine management systems and oodles of other gizmos. This leads to more complexity and more room for user error. Compare that to my saturn where the only electronics I have are a radio a digital clock and fuel injection and you have alot less room for error.

Edit: And money is always an issue, even multi millionares want to have something in the pot just in case things don't work out.

 

[Double_R]

Do preconceptions about a company actually make the product better? No. I think I would rather have a couple extra grand in my pocket for a less flashy car than I would want a big merc.

And I don't think merc is going downhill because of cost cutting, I think it is more because of computerization. Almost every new mercedes is brimming with driving aids, dvd players, gps units, six cd changers, engine management systems and oodles of other gizmos. This leads to more complexity and more room for user error. Compare that to my saturn where the only electronics I have are a radio a digital clock and fuel injection and you have alot less room for error.

Edit: And money is always an issue, even multi millionares want to have something in the pot just in case things don't work out.

Yes I totally agree but for the people that do have money to waste then you could do much worse than get a mercedes. Im not saying that I personally would buy a car going by repuatation or by being able to say that I own a 'Mercedes'. Hell I want a type-r or a celica let alone a 8 year old mercedes which I would just be about able to afford.

 

[1X83Z]

For someone who thinks the way a car looks is on the bottom of buyers' list of priorities, could you please tell me why the hell people keep buying VWs if not for the sake of their image?

Image has little to do with styling, and build quality and reliability can be mutually exclusive (the Jetta's interior quality is maginificent vs. competitors, even if the tail-lights fail). Plus - have you ever checked a standard features list on a Jetta?

 

[Anderton Prime]

To me that list of features could be a literal mile long, and I'd still avoid Volkswagen like the plague. I know you abhor "personal experience" but my friend has owned three back-to-back generations of Jettas, and while the first two were crap and their price tags fit the bill, the latest cost him OVER $30,000 (Canadian) for a low-end version. Not to tout the virtues (?!) of my own Pontiac Sunfire, but there aren't many differences in features between the cars, and mine has more power. Plus I saved over $10,000 with my car, so the list of features is irrelevant to me.

 

[1X83Z]

I know, I know - your friend's got a Jetta, you've got a Sunfire, whatever. I didn't even read the post. I refuse to respond to personal experience. Personal experience is the single least-helpful discussion point; it adds no facts and rarely helpful information.

Incidentally I have no beef with you - you seem knowledgeable, actually - I just can't stand personal experience posts. You're talking to the king of personal experience on the car front, but it's just not helpful to discuss. It isn't factual

 

[Anderton Prime]

Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I happen to believe that personal experience is the BEST tool when looking to buy a new car. I'd much rather hear actual testimonies - exaggerated though they often are - then read up on a car in Car & Driver (I know, I know, C&D is the Devil).

Doesn't J.D. Power use customer feedback to rate cars / manufacturers?

 

[1X83Z]

Doesn't J.D. Power use customer feedback to rate cars / manufacturers?

Do you not realise the difference between one example of personal experience (you) and tens of thousands of examples of personal experience (JD Power)? If you don't perhaps you're not as knowledgeable as I thought.