IRS 2019 2.4 Hours of Le Mans | Race complete | Congratulations to our winners

  • Thread starter aceboy127
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576
Australia
Australia
StigsTC
This is amazing lol.
As much as I love Le Mans, the white lines around the track just don't make sense when you see where kerbs are located. The lines are supposed to denote track boundaries, but they stop short of the kerbs by a good metre in places and in no way really denote the racing surface, and in places just aren't sensible or enforceable.
I was confused how I had so many instances of corner cutting and looks like, aside from the high speed sucking on my part, it is just 'to the letter of the law' interpretation of track limits in areas where they don't really make sense.

Take the first Mulsanne chicane.
LeMansFirstChicane.png


I've focussed on the exit here and left orientation north because I'm using MS paint to explain my point and I have 0 ability in any photo editor.
Now track limits are defined by white lines unless bounded by kerbs, then kerbs are defined as legal. Now normally the lines back onto the kerbs and you end up with a relatively smooth and logical transition between kerb and no kerb for what is legal and illegal. However here at Le Mans, you get something like this.
LeMansFirstChicane_PD_Track_Limits.png


Now this is as close as I can zoom in on maps but what you can see is not a nice transition between white line and kerb, but a solid 1 metre (40 inches for those so inclined) gap between white line and kerb. As a result, it generates a whole heap of dead space, of legal track that can't be accessed as there is no way to just translate your car half its width to the inside.
In the next photo, I have attempted (poorly) to highlight the racing line that is blackened on the road.
LeMansFirstChicane_Reality.png


As you can see, the racing line, takes racers right out into the edge of legal track, and more often than not beyond it as the tarmac is all the same type well beyond the white line. FIA track limits dictate that kerbs are NOT racing surface and pounding over them for 24 hours with the OUTSIDE (loaded) wheels is not a good idea so you see cars make it back to the outside of the kerb on the exit. The way the ACO chooses to run its races is to only focus on what you are doing at the kerbs, and what you do in between isn't really important so long as you do not hop the kerbs on either inside or outside of the road. This is not a to the letter interpretation, but it is far more logical here at Le Mans.
Now pre-race you floated the idea of enforcing in game penalties and were met with pretty widespread disdain for the idea, and it is because of what I have outlined here. The track limits that are applied are overly zealous, you can be well within the kerbs but still activate the penalty zones trying to access what is legal racing surface. Having decided to not apply PD track limits because of their inability to define racing surface, it seemed that you had decided to apply the common sense approach to track limits. Interestingly, the dirty tyres mechanic does not activate on the racing surface beyond the white line in the chicanes, but only once you have passed the kerbs. Run the tiniest bit wide over the kerbs out of the Dunlop chicane and you'll not make the Forest Esses with dirty tyres, however if you run 4 tyres over the white lines in the Mulsanne chicanes but make the kerb, you'll be fine.
How you wish to run your race is up to you, and the result clearly doesn't effect me due to the disconnection, but for my mind, anyone who believes the second photo is in the spirit of racing, is actually enforceable in a meaningful way is just not a racer. They may be a competitor looking to try find an exploitable advantage, but that kind of hard line letter of the law thinking isn't what racing is about.

Analysis aside, shoutout to @TNR_KING_FILO for absolutely taking the piss with track limits, did you even try to make Tetre Rouge cleanly? Fantastic scenes lol.
 

TetsuKobura

Iron Cobra
Premium
1,543
United States
Houston, TX
SDM_IronCobra
Analysis aside, shoutout to @TNR_KING_FILO for absolutely taking the piss with track limits, did you even try to make Tetre Rouge cleanly? Fantastic scenes lol.
Filo got DQ'd from the VRR DHL Endurance race at Sarthe because of abused track limits. Ironically enough, Tetre Rouge was part of the problem in that race. During the first half of the race, I was the fastest LMP on track when it came to that corner leading up to chicane 1 (Audi R18 at the time), and after a while, I started not gaining any time at all, and started losing time. I started testing the track limits and it went back to normal.
 
576
Australia
Australia
StigsTC
It is not GTSport, but track limits are explained here!
Worth noting that the chicanes have kerbing on one side of the road for the entirety of the chicane. Thus the ambiguity of the white lines to kerb transition is removed as the kerbs exist at all times you would need that ambiguity defined.
Edit:
Nevermind, both those pictures are the entry and I'm just blind! The exits are as normal, and interestingly the little exclamation points are only at the kerbs.
 

monoha

Premium
763
Denmark
Aarhus, Denmark
monoha
Now pre-race you floated the idea of enforcing in game penalties and were met with pretty widespread disdain for the idea, and it is because of what I have outlined here. The track limits that are applied are overly zealous, you can be well within the kerbs but still activate the penalty zones trying to access what is legal racing surface. Having decided to not apply PD track limits because of their inability to define racing surface, it seemed that you had decided to apply the common sense approach to track limits. Interestingly, the dirty tyres mechanic does not activate on the racing surface beyond the white line in the chicanes, but only once you have passed the kerbs. Run the tiniest bit wide over the kerbs out of the Dunlop chicane and you'll not make the Forest Esses with dirty tyres, however if you run 4 tyres over the white lines in the Mulsanne chicanes but make the kerb, you'll be fine.
How you wish to run your race is up to you, and the result clearly doesn't effect me due to the disconnection, but for my mind, anyone who believes the second photo is in the spirit of racing, is actually enforceable in a meaningful way is just not a racer. They may be a competitor looking to try find an exploitable advantage, but that kind of hard line letter of the law thinking isn't what racing is about.

None of the reported off-tracks are 'well within the kerbs' and are not PD applied zealousenss, but whats stated in this events rules. PD limits are tighter.

I believe the marked red in picture two is off-track where you can't have more than 2 wheels, as its beyond the lines and not supported by a kerb - else its unlimited.

I fail to see how dirty tire mechanic has anything to do with whats legal or not.

Analysis aside, shoutout to @TNR_KING_FILO for absolutely taking the piss with track limits, did you even try to make Tetre Rouge cleanly? Fantastic scenes lol.
Yeah, lets celebrate blatantly disregrad of clean and fair racing 👎

It is not GTSport, but track limits are explained here!

BTW, looking at this lap, I doubt that I did any clean corner lol, they barely touch kerbs
Thats a nice clean lap 👍
 
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4,382
United States
Tennessee
nail-27
The rules are the rules. Get over it and pay attention and accept the penalties.

A few years ago when I was in SNAIL we had a problem with track limits on a certain track We advised drivers repeatedly about penalties and they IGNORED, blatantly. As a result we Stewards had to pick 10 or 15 drivers each and watch their race and file Protests, which Stewards in SNAIL rarely did. Normally we had 10 protests for four to five rooms with three races each. In the track limit purge ( not my words) we filed well over 100 protests, which then had to be viewed by two additional stewards. The drivers blatant refusal to adhere to track limits resulted in a time penalty for each offense. It’s not about advantage its about failure to respect the rules because you are more intent on going faster...you can call it being sloppy or you can call it cheating. Take your choice.

In Room three @GTP_Guido and I raced nose to toes with intensity. We did not violate the limits other than a slide wide here and there. Great FUN . And that is the problem here...some of us are so intent on winning that the FUN has been lost. This is a GAME, you will not lose your ride if you-do not win .
 
576
Australia
Australia
StigsTC
I mean, I got DC'd, the penalty changes nothing for me lol.
The only position that changed was the one with the guy taking the piss out of the rules and nobody is arguing with that. It seemed odly petty and needless to go through and try penalise a driver that didn't get to finish. That to me says more about winning than having fun.
that kind of hard line letter of the law thinking isn't what racing is about.
 
4,382
United States
Tennessee
nail-27
I mean, I got DC'd, the penalty changes nothing for me lol.
The only position that changed was the one with the guy taking the piss out of the rules and nobody is arguing with that. It seemed odly petty and needless to go through and try penalise a driver that didn't get to finish. That to me says more about winning than having fun.
Yeah I also was dcd by a lightning strike that caused a momentary power out I was crushed... oh well.
 

aceboy127

International Racing Series Owner
Premium
3,614
United States
Columbus, Ohio
aceboy127
racingaceboy127
OK as already noted the LMP1 Pro class has a lot of penalties due to corner cutting. Each instance resulted in 0.5 second penalty. @Miguelinho is penalized 15 seconds for not meeting car regulations, this is down from 30 due to ignorance from the organizers. All results are final. Congratulations to our winners.
 
3,506
England
Essex
CWM_StormPacer
There's only one thing I have learned from this experience:

Avoid any curb use like the plague in IRS.

Moving on.

:sly:

Edit - Look, all this fiasco aside I just find it fascinating that only 1 class in 1 lobby got tagged for track limits given the criteria that led to so many in Lobby 1.

I'm not bothered by how much was found, just that I HIGHLY doubt it was just the one class of cars in multiple lobbies.

The amusing part for me is that half of these penalties are null due to disconnects, and all but 1 investigation did basically nothing to change the final standings. Someone compiled all this trouble for 1 position change at the end.

Granted, highlighting one competitor taking blatant disregard to track limits is great, I applaud you, but the rest of the results didn't change, and can wager most were at most quite nitpicky degrees of cutting...

To vaguely quote @GTP_Nail "its a GAME, it supposed to be FUN." and I think being concerned with track limits to the degree I wager, with the meticulous effort than likely went into compiling it isn't my idea of fun... find a career that allows you to do that if you find it fun to do. Hell, start a YT channel dedicated to it if you're that adamant and passionate.
 
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monoha

Premium
763
Denmark
Aarhus, Denmark
monoha
I'm glad you're not bothered with how much was found, as I hope you guys talking against this can distinctive between the act of finding the cuts and the verdict based on them, as thats two different entities. In the 'report' only Filo was mentioned. The rest is the stewards doing.

The reason why I included all in the class doing the findings was to be unbiased and objective - but perhaps it would have been best only to have included those I knew had cut during the race - apologies if you're getting a different impression and stamping it as nitpicking. I already mentioned I'd prefere to only penalise those that cut consistenly the same corners (eg 3+ in a row) and leave the 'lone' cuts unpunished, as thats expected here and there. I hope the IRS can see that and I think its best they comment on it.

But I disagree that it shouldn't have been imposed on those that DC'd and wasn't able to produce a single clean lap. Its not about the results or who is winning, its about having a fair race and it was really frustrating to see some on the track magically gaining 1-1.5 second on one corner and others consistenly cutting the same corners over and over again. My impression of these penalites are for rectifying that cutting culture to impose a reality check regardless of DC or results. Else it continues unchecked.

I hope we all can agree that none of us wants to spend 2.4 hours in a race and spend all the work leading up to it if we aren't racing under the same rules that explicity affects the race - there are no fun in that. And there are certainly no fun in going over the replay just because some can't drive under self-policing.
 
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2,265
United States
United States
That's where I think the in game track penalties should come into play before we start this war yes I do agree they are bogus on some tracks what it does do though is level the playing field for every single driver yes I know with them on u have to drive that track completely different buttttttttttttt everyone else does to so in my opinion they should always atleast be on light that way it will definitely show you who ur problem children are when the guy has 30 seconds of penalties up that will also help back dq someone
 

NoirAntares

JEAN!
Premium
3,015
Japan
Osaka
CWM_NoirAntares
The stewards either follow the rules to the letter or be consistent with how lenient they'll be.

I feel like the root of all this is having no official IRS steward present in Lobby 1. If there was, then maybe they could've looked at their own replay and make the decision from there instead of having someone with a lot of free time take so much time off voluntarily take policing into their own hands.
 
2,265
United States
United States
The stewards either follow the rules to the letter or be consistent with how lenient they'll be.

I feel like the root of all this is having no official IRS steward present in Lobby 1. If there was, then maybe they could've looked at their own replay and make the decision from there instead of having someone with a lot of free time take so much time off voluntarily take policing into their own hands.

You are right in that aspect to that's why in ARL for example we have 2 stewards in each lobby for that very reason
 
3,506
England
Essex
CWM_StormPacer
Okay, so a legitimate complaint someone had in party chat was how one guy was able to claw 5 tenths out of a corner in the same car.

This corner was Arnage.... there is not cutting Arnage; that is talent.

As for one guy magically gaining 1-1.5 on one corner, if that's a marginal cut then 0.95 to 1.4s of that is all down to you. Otherwise that has FILO written all over it. :lol:

So another thing I made sure to do in my qualifying session (anticipating this subconsciously) is getting feedback from the Stewards on my racing lines. I got no negative feedback, so I translate those lines to the race. Now Mon, you were in that lobby with me so you can atest to me asking this of the steward... so, if I'm not given the feedback I need during qualifying to adjust my lines accordingly on the leadup to the race, who is at fault?

Now, half the penalty for having the wrong car was scrapped coz of steward's ineptitude. Following that logic, the same could be said for not receiving correct feedback on track limits during qualifying. Which if I am right, would apply to everyone else, except FILO due to how blatant it was.
 

NoirAntares

JEAN!
Premium
3,015
Japan
Osaka
CWM_NoirAntares
So another thing I made sure to do in my qualifying session (anticipating this subconsciously) is getting feedback from the Stewards on my racing lines. I got no negative feedback, so I translate those lines to the race. Now Mon, you were in that lobby with me so you can atest to me asking this of the steward... so, if I'm not given the feedback I need during qualifying to adjust my lines accordingly on the leadup to the race, who is at fault?
Not to mention the fact that we had a whole week for someone with reservations about overall track limits to have spoken up.

As far as I'm aware, no one did, competitors nor stewards, thus giving everyone the impression that whatever track limits they followed during qualifying was well within the rules.

If the track limits weren't legal and the violations were significant enough (maybe even a pixel perfect cut if following to the letter) then surely imposing time penalty or outright invalidation of lap time was an option during the entire qualifying period just to nail the point that they were not allowed to do whatever they did.
 
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3,506
England
Essex
CWM_StormPacer
The nature of qualifying suggests that you are more inclined to ride that limit because all the focus is on one-lap pace and getting good track position for the start.

Usually I'd say track position in a long race isn't important but if you happen to have a Mr. Divebomb McTorpedo in your lobby, you could very well avoid them entirely at the start should they do as their name implies.

Back to point; this is where track limits needed to be fed back to the drivers the most. I asked for feedback on mine, and it turned out to result in 24.5s of penalties... that would suggest being misinformed.

Again, I still won regardless of the penalties put onto the class. The point here is if feedback not received or not correct, then you can't enforce the rules to the same degree, especially moreso if its been ASKED FOR.
 
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monoha

Premium
763
Denmark
Aarhus, Denmark
monoha
Okay, so a legitimate complaint someone had in party chat was how one guy was able to claw 5 tenths out of a corner in the same car.

This corner was Arnage.... there is not cutting Arnage; that is talent.

As for one guy magically gaining 1-1.5 on one corner, if that's a marginal cut then 0.95 to 1.4s of that is all down to you. Otherwise that has FILO written all over it. :lol:

So another thing I made sure to do in my qualifying session (anticipating this subconsciously) is getting feedback from the Stewards on my racing lines. I got no negative feedback, so I translate those lines to the race. Now Mon, you were in that lobby with me so you can atest to me asking this of the steward... so, if I'm not given the feedback I need during qualifying to adjust my lines accordingly on the leadup to the race, who is at fault?

Now, half the penalty for having the wrong car was scrapped coz of steward's ineptitude. Following that logic, the same could be said for not receiving correct feedback on track limits during qualifying. Which if I am right, would apply to everyone else, except FILO due to how blatant it was.
Yes you asked during quali, that and honestly you're fine. I hope to race you again.

Yes the 'magic' was filo but also another one suddenly gained 1,5 at tetre rouge a few times who I was battling. Doesn't matter now.
 

Bambi

Motorsport Engineer
Premium
4,657
United States
Indiana
GTP_Bambi
With the results now confirmed and "final," I can say that I am really pleased with the team's performance this year, backing up a 1-2 victory in GTE Pro in 2018. I knew that this year's race was going to be the most difficult one yet, with highly acclaimed participants in the GTE class and a new car to learn on top of it. I wanted to win, especially after everything that had occurred in the weeks leading up to the race. I wanted to win to make a point, not necessarily a point to others but a point to myself. My own attitude towards sim-racing hasn't been the greatest in the past couple of months and I needed to do something to help chance that. The challenge on the 3x tire wear (especially on a controller), the new car, and the caliper of competition was a perfect opportunity for me to prove to myself that I am still capable of racing at the front.

Preparations were long and intense at times. I was originally supposed to be part of a 3-car team but when that fell through, I ultimately ended up having to field my own operation for the second straight year. I did have help though. @Kross24 and @damonc84 were awesome enough to share this experience with me and help fine tune the car to extract the most performance possible. I was open to fielding a third car if the circumstances were right but ultimately decided that focusing on the two-car effort would be best for the efficiency and productivity of race preparations. I decided to field Damon in the second car as we had already worked together for a good portion of 2019 as teammates for the VRR DHL Endurance Championship and already knew how we operated as a team. I would have fielded a third car for Kross but he unfortunately was not able to participate.

20190621114118.jpg

DEER Engineering's contestants for the 2019 IRS 2.4 Hours of Le Mans
As far as preparing for the race itself, I took the same approach I did with the aforementioned VRR championship. Most of the time was spent studying the car and evaluating its strengths and weaknesses. It was found with the help of @Storm_SP17, we could save fuel via. short shifting and not lose too much time, while extending the fuel window to nine laps. This becomes important later. Time was also spent studying our competitors so we could have a better idea of what we should expect on race day. We did not want to find ourselves in any situation or circumstance that we did not see coming.

As for race strategy, the hardest part was really just calculating how many laps we would run as GTE cars. Using three different average lap time references for each class, it was calculated each time that the GTE cars would complete 36 laps in the race, with a possibility of 35 laps if the prototype lap times closely matched the times set forth in qualifying. This data, along with fuel mileage calculations and rough approximations of what a trip through the pit lane would do, our game plan was calculated and composed.

upload_2019-6-29_12-16-7.png

Strategy for a 36 lap race as calculated by my spreadsheet
Finally, all that was left to do was perform on race day. With a good bit of luck and great driving by both cars we were able to score a double-victory, the best possible outcome for the team. I am really grateful to the organizers for putting on this event, despite everything that happened. I am also grateful to those who helped Damon and I, Kross and Storm in particular. Lastly, I am extremely grateful for Damon, who drove spectacularly and put forth what could arguably be the best drive of his Gran Turismo career. There is no recipe that replaces talent and rigor. Thank you Damon for making 2019 once again a very successful endeavor. :cheers: This bowl's for you!!!

upload_2019-6-29_12-50-56.png
 
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12,892
United States
Divided States of America
MikuHime80
With the results now confirmed and "final," I can say that I am really pleased with the team's performance this year, backing up a 1-2 victory in GTE Pro in 2018. I knew that this year's race was going to be the most difficult one yet, with highly acclaimed participants in the GTE class and a new car to learn on top of it. I wanted to win, especially after everything that had occurred in the weeks leading up to the race. I wanted to win to make a point, not necessarily a point to others but a point to myself. My own attitude towards sim-racing hasn't been the greatest in the past couple of months and I needed to do something to help chance that. The challenge on the 3x tire wear (especially on a controller), the new car, and the caliper of competition was a perfect opportunity for me to prove to myself that I am still capable of racing at the front.

Preparations were long and intense at times. I was originally supposed to be part of a 3-car team but when that fell through, I ultimately ended up having to field my own operation for the second straight year. I did have help though. @Kross24 and @damonc84 were awesome enough to share this experience with me and help fine tune the car to extract the most performance possible. I was open to fielding a third car if the circumstances were right but ultimately decided that focusing on the two-car effort would be best for the efficiency and productivity of race preparations. I decided to field Damon in the second car as we had already worked together for a good portion of 2019 as teammates for the VRR DHL Endurance Championship and already knew how we operated as a team. I would have fielded a third car for Kross but he unfortunately was not able to participate.

View attachment 832062
DEER Engineering's contestants for the 2019 IRS 2.4 Hours of Le Mans
As far as preparing for the race itself went, I took the same approach I did with the aforementioned VRR championship. Most of the time was spent studying the car and evaluating its strengths and weaknesses. It was found with the help of @Storm_SP17, we could save fuel via. short shifting and not lose too much time, while extending the fuel window to nine laps. This becomes important later. Time was also spent studying our competitors so we could have a better idea of what we should expect on race day. We did hot want to find ourselves in any situation or circumstance that we did not see coming.

As for race strategy, the hardest part was really just calculating how many laps we would run as GTE cars. Using three different average lap time references for each class, it was calculated each time that the GTE cars would complete 36 laps in the race, with a possibility of 35 laps if the prototype lap times closely matched the times set forth in qualifying. This data, along with fuel mileage calculations and rough approximations of what a trip through the pit lane would do, our game plan was calculated and composed.

View attachment 832083
Strategy for a 36 lap race as calculated by my spreadsheet.
Finally, all that was left to do was perform on race day. With a good bit of luck and great driving by both cars we were able to score a double-victory, the best possible outcome for the team. I am really grateful to the organizers for putting on this event, despite everything that happened. I am also grateful to those who helped Damon and I, Kross and Storm in particular. Lastly, I am extremely grateful for Damon, who drove spectacularly and put forth what could arguably be the best drive of his Gran Turismo career. There is no recipe that replaces talent and rigor. Thank you Damon for making 2019 once again a very successful endeavor. :cheers: This bowl's for you!!!

What a legend.
 
3,506
England
Essex
CWM_StormPacer
With the results now confirmed and "final," I can say that I am really pleased with the team's performance this year, backing up a 1-2 victory in GTE Pro in 2018. I knew that this year's race was going to be the most difficult one yet, with highly acclaimed participants in the GTE class and a new car to learn on top of it. I wanted to win, especially after everything that had occurred in the weeks leading up to the race. I wanted to win to make a point, not necessarily a point to others but a point to myself. My own attitude towards sim-racing hasn't been the greatest in the past couple of months and I needed to do something to help chance that. The challenge on the 3x tire wear (especially on a controller), the new car, and the caliper of competition was a perfect opportunity for me to prove to myself that I am still capable of racing at the front.

Preparations were long and intense at times. I was originally supposed to be part of a 3-car team but when that fell through, I ultimately ended up having to field my own operation for the second straight year. I did have help though. @Kross24 and @damonc84 were awesome enough to share this experience with me and help fine tune the car to extract the most performance possible. I was open to fielding a third car if the circumstances were right but ultimately decided that focusing on the two-car effort would be best for the efficiency and productivity of race preparations. I decided to field Damon in the second car as we had already worked together for a good portion of 2019 as teammates for the VRR DHL Endurance Championship and already knew how we operated as a team. I would have fielded a third car for Kross but he unfortunately was not able to participate.

View attachment 832062
DEER Engineering's contestants for the 2019 IRS 2.4 Hours of Le Mans
As far as preparing for the race itself went, I took the same approach I did with the aforementioned VRR championship. Most of the time was spent studying the car and evaluating its strengths and weaknesses. It was found with the help of @Storm_SP17, we could save fuel via. short shifting and not lose too much time, while extending the fuel window to nine laps. This becomes important later. Time was also spent studying our competitors so we could have a better idea of what we should expect on race day. We did hot want to find ourselves in any situation or circumstance that we did not see coming.

As for race strategy, the hardest part was really just calculating how many laps we would run as GTE cars. Using three different average lap time references for each class, it was calculated each time that the GTE cars would complete 36 laps in the race, with a possibility of 35 laps if the prototype lap times closely matched the times set forth in qualifying. This data, along with fuel mileage calculations and rough approximations of what a trip through the pit lane would do, our game plan was calculated and composed.

View attachment 832083
Strategy for a 36 lap race as calculated by my spreadsheet
Finally, all that was left to do was perform on race day. With a good bit of luck and great driving by both cars we were able to score a double-victory, the best possible outcome for the team. I am really grateful to the organizers for putting on this event, despite everything that happened. I am also grateful to those who helped Damon and I, Kross and Storm in particular. Lastly, I am extremely grateful for Damon, who drove spectacularly and put forth what could arguably be the best drive of his Gran Turismo career. There is no recipe that replaces talent and rigor. Thank you Damon for making 2019 once again a very successful endeavor. :cheers: This bowl's for you!!!

And who said too many cooks spoil the Macaroni, eh??

It sure looked like you followed that recipe to perfection though.