Is 6 cars enough?

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Aveiro-F1

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I often question GT's commited 6 car racing. Because it gets so boring in the endurance races and for me the past GTs have been games where you enjoy them for a while but their get so boring that you stop playing sooner than you'd want. For me GT3 was too easy, but I also think it's time GT tries allowing us to compete with bigger grids.
 
Good point. It would be fun to set your own limit of opponents, but some people would put 1 so it was easier to win. But meh, it would be fun to race like 20 other cars. But it's not goign to happen.
 
If we wanted more opponents, we'd have to sacrifice graphics quality so the PS2 could handle all the extra calculations and polys from the extra opponents. Or we could always ask Sony to release GT4 for PC :lol:
 
Actually I think more cars would be better, but.... we link up every week and race 6 people at once. The races couldn't be any closer. We have raced some very long races and it's really hard to keep the concentration at such a high level for so long . The game needs better AI for those who don't use the link mode. For us that do, it couldn't get any better. We have a couple of guys who beleive in saving tires and pitting fewer times and some of us run as hard as we can and wear a set out twice as fast, and it usually boils down to consistency, no matter what your strategy is. I can go on all night sorry for the looooong post:D
 
Get 24 Hours of Lemans.
The load times suck. But you have 18 cars on the track at a time. You will often find yourself "in traffic" because there are fast cars, very fast cars, and the rolling roadblocks.
You can also tell what cars you've lapped by the color of their "position dot" on the in-race map.
 
Gil, does that game support the ff wheel?
I read your bio, Where at in KS? Have you seen the post for an I-link tourney in MO? Come on over join in.
 
Originally posted by codered_59
they just need smarter AI.....not STRONGER AI as in more HP wise, but more SMARTER AI.....you know?
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they should do what Sega did with Virtual Fighter 4:Evo's AI in quest mode. Gather a bunch of good japanese GT players , record data and turn them into the AI.
 
Originally posted by I6-4-eva
they should do what Sega did with Virtual Fighter 4:Evo's AI in quest mode. Gather a bunch of good japanese GT players , record data and turn them into the AI.
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From what I have seen, Polyphony digital has people that pretty much live in the headquarters and do nothing but race the game.
I think they put those best times for the gold licenses.
 
Gran Turismo 3 supports only six cars. As I stated once, there were two sides to this when it comes to more cars. (1) More cars to a track are more tempting, at the expense of slower FPS rates. (2) Keeping 6 cars while making them accessible to 6 players via network, more cars would only taint the already overworked gameplay quality. Now let me choose a few games.

World Driving Championship (Nintendo 64)
Ridge Racer Type 4 (Playstation 1)
Ridge Racer V (Playstation 2)
Test Drive Le Mans (Playstation 1)
Le Mans 24 Hours (Playstation 2)
NASCAR Racing 2 (PC)
Formula One...(rest unknown, Nintendo 64)
Wipeout Fusion (Playstation 2)

Now, don't just pay attention to the ratings and styles of these games, I'm using them as references to prove a point. I am not a hardcore professional, but I noticed a few things about these games. These elements include graphics, frame rate, loading times, tracks and their quality, (optional) weather and realtime effects, and more.

World Driving Championship and RRT4 have up to eight for the win with ddecent graphic quality. Wipeout Fusion has weather effects on some tracks in this futuristic game. 16 to a track, but the game stays very fast with decent loading times and beautiful graphics. Ridge Racer V is one of the first PS2 titles, but even with its somewhat dated graphics, 14 racers compete for the win challenging each other in one massive city with massive routes. They've always done this in the Ridge Racer series. Most different tracks were RRT4, where there were four different areas. Note that I mentioned NASCAR Racing and Formula One. In this sense, this is okay. Because as I studied, the more cars look the same, the more machines can come to race. It's simple. Take one car model, slap on several paint schemes, boom! 22 cars for F1 and 39 or 43 for NASCAR. Now the game I mentioned the most. The Le Mans series marks the best efforts to capture sportscar racing at its finest. Keep in mind that many makes of car exist in these races. So more models of a certain type, the more loading times. In fact in "Le Mans 24 Hours", I can see why the other 12 to 24 cars don't get chrome mapping. It is because if everything was the same, gameplay would be same, but much slower. And don't expect loading times to get any better.

The point of any racing game is to make them fast so that a person can get in, race on, and keep a consistent frame rate. Anyone who's played GT3 realized that the game HARDLY EVER SLOWS DOWN. If GT3 wanted to go with 8 cars, that's still competitive. In fact, I'm surprised why 8 cars don't race at once for Sega GT, or any other 6-car-to-a-track game. If GT wanted more cars, maybe it can be relegated to same-car races (like Beetle Cup, for example). So my "expert analysis" is why 6 cars really isn't enough, but it is suitable so that an already fast game doesn't get stuck in 3rd gear, if you know what I mean. "Is 6 cars enough?" is not a bad question at all. I'm just going on logic and experience. Personally, I think PD can work with the team that made "Le Mans 24 Hours" and experiment making a multi-car racing GT series. Then the same team can learn how to make their respective games more accessible and have bigger packs to work with. Until then, six is all you're getting (not to sound or be mean).
 
Personally I think 6 cars is fine in GT games, as with many my main gripe is with the poor AI. Although personally I get bored with any race thats >3 laps atleast in GT3, unless its really close & the AI doesn't ride on a Scaletric track, then perhaps my view would change.
 
8 cars in GT on the PS2 with the game engine PD are using is impossible, the reason being not only are the graphics pushingthe PS2's capabilities but the physics engine itself uses up alot more.

If PD wanted to put more cars on the grid, they could but it would be different game, they would hjave to half the number of calculations made and lower the quality of graphics.

By halfing the calculations considering the low quality AI at the moment, it would be safe to say that that would get worse, as would the responsivness of your car and the overall feel of the gameas a sim would be destroyed.

Graphics wise, you would be looking at a much lower quality than the graphics in GT3 andyou migt still get some frame rate problems at the start of a race especially.

I don't se much point having 2 or more cars extra on the grid to leave behind once you've got round the second corner into the race, whats going to benefit the game and the GT communtiy more would be concentrating on the 5 AI cars you have at the moment, and trying to make them race as fast as a human can.
 
It doesn't bother me and I definitely put it down to PS2 limitations - you want a car that looks real, and with 20+ cars the PS2 won't do it (many other games show this). But I do expect that with the PS3 and GT5 things are very likely to change. And I definitely don't mind. I've driven Mods races online with 20+ cars (humans!) and it's great, great fun.
 
Originally posted by Mr.Kwik
Gil, does that game support the ff wheel?
I read your bio, Where at in KS? Have you seen the post for an I-link tourney in MO? Come on over join in.
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Just outside of Kansas City, Kansas.
Platte City, MO is about 15 minutes from here.
Didn't see the I-link.
I'll have to go look it up.:D
 
I've got Le Mans for the old PS1, even though I have a PS2. The graphics suck, but the sun does rise and set, and you get to race 18 other cars.

Another thing is that the steering is over-sensitive, but the game is great fun, especially dodging burnt out cars while doing 210mph:D
 
It's been my argument from day one that it needs more cars in the field. I would be happy sacrificing lots of graphics quality for additional cars to race against. The physics engine wouldn't have to change, just the detail in car models. Most of the detail you can't see while you're racing anyway.

I'd like to try the F1 games that have full starting grids, but I'm told the physics fall short of GT3.
 
Originally posted by SunsetSkyline
If there were more cars, the races would last longer...no more no 3-7 lap races...every race would be like 10+ lap race
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I dont know about you guys but 10 laps a race sounds good to me..:cool:
 
Yeah, if not more. I like to do 25 to 40 laps for a good race. Unfortunately at that point the AI have usually fallen well behind and I win by a lap or two.
 
If its just the physics calculation code that is holding us back from more than 6 cars, then they need a new team to redo the algothirm for the physics so that it can handle more cars! 6 cars to a track is a joke. Thats not really realistic. I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of frame rate and looks to have more cars.
 
Do you want the cars to handle worse, less calculations equal less realism, also it would look like RR5. Making the 5 AI cars we have cometitive is more important than adding another 4 cars to each grid. Just think you could beat all 9 AI cars by a lap or 2, have worse handling and worse graphics, or you can have a solid competitve race where your being drafted, blocked and working for every position with the 5 AI cars we have now, lets hope PD make the AI work this time round.
 
Originally posted by BreakerOhio
Thats not really realistic. I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of frame rate and looks to have more cars.
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For this type of game it is realistic. I saw a video with 6 cars on Tsukuba off Kazaa. 2 Evo's VS 2 M3's VS 2 Modena's, one of each car was automatic. This was the real Grantirismo :)

By the way the Evo 7 GSR won easy while the rwd cars struggled coming out of corners.
 
6 cars is perfect for Gran Turismo. I would hate to see Gran turismo to have 10 or more cars and have anything else crappy (scenery, models, anything else).

Smarter AI is what would be better then more cars.

Imagine more cars in GT3, All you would have is more cars to pass up agian when you go by them untill you do it over.

If anyone here has played Prologue, they can see that the AI is MUCH better then GT3 was. You don't shoot out of the starting line anymore. It is very close between turns. And its only a few feet difference (or less) at the finish line.

the way Gran Turismo is heading, its perfect with 6 cars and Excellent AI. I could understand that more cars = more people online per race but Polyphony Digital is at the moment expirementing with Online Capabilities.

6 cars online (with good drivers) is perfect anyways. Imagine having a 10 car race and as always there are idiots who drive backward or crash into people. Their are greater chanceses of having 7 good drivers and 3 idiots instead of maybe 6 good drivers and 1 idiot.
 
As I did with my "expert analysis" on other games vs. GT, I kind of thought of something.

More cars in GT would be interesting. But here is another logic as to why 6 cars would be perfect versus let's say... 20. The other logic I had is that for beginners, 6 is perfect because it gives you a better chance at overtaking the competition. The king of racing games where moving through a huge pack can be challenging but rewarding is most Sega games between "Daytona USA" and "Daytona USA 2: Battle on the Edge." It's too bad I haven't mentioned my favorite one... until now! My favorite is Super GT ("SCUD (Super Car Ultimate Drive) Race" in Japan). Anyone who's played this Sega classic knows that you can choose between a Porsche 911, a Ferrari F40, a Dodge Viper GTS-R, and a McLaren F1. The beginner tracks (I love the night one, track and music) has 40, the intermediate course has 20, and the expert course has 30, if I am not mistaken. I know from playing many racing games that going through such a pack can be challenging. But while Gran Turismo can also be challenging (like that Super License test where you must pilot a Toyota GT-One to complete a lap around Monaco in 1:33 seconds or something (GT3)), this game is fair in letting people challenge a not-so-big pack. This is another logic that I wanted to share, so thank you for your time.

Now that I think about it, there was another Nintendo 64 game where you rally raced against 20 competitors at once. After noticing the models, the tracks have 20 competitors (including yourself) with two car models each. As with my NASCAR/F1 inclusion, the same was applied in this game. The game is "Top Gear Rally," by the way. The game is no Gran Turismo, but it can be fun. So I have made three logics now about more cars. In review:

- more cars at the expense of lowered FPS
- maintain 6 cars and allow other GT players to take part
- fairness in climbing through pack

See you later...
 
Jonny B, did you play every sequal of the GT series? You have some uhhh different picks for driving games. Does anyone on this site get it? It's not about visuals, it's not about speed, it's not about anything in your last post! It's all about the competition! What most sim drivers are saying is the developers have not made a game that is competitive enough. I don't think there is anyone who wants a good race most everyone on this site is playing this "drift" stuff and posting their fastest lap. instead of using the I-link mode and racing against other intellengent beings. Race against people for twenty laps or so (side by side) and still go from the front to the back because you over accelerated or over/under braked at the wrong time. Try to stay fast for forty laps with a real competitor on you butt the entire time.
 

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