Is ABS ruining an otherwise amazing sim? Are there any series without it?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by GunSlingerAUS, Nov 11, 2019.

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Is ABS scaring off hardcore simmers?

  1. Yes

    12 vote(s)
    10.3%
  2. No

    43 vote(s)
    36.8%
  3. Stop being a simming snob, GunDoucheAUS

    62 vote(s)
    53.0%
  1. GunSlingerAUS

    GunSlingerAUS

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    5
    Hey guys

    I only recently discovered the joy that is GTS, and fell head over heels in love with this goddess. I've never thought a console game could come close to the likes of iRacing, but GTS totally smashed that preconception. Not only do I get to drive in organised races with a "respect rating", but the physics model feels sublime. I am currently using a PS4 control pad, but due to my new infatuation, decided to splash out on a $2k racing cockpit and wheel today.

    HOWEVER...

    First impressions of the online mode were simply amazing, with relatively clean, tight racing... except for me. For some reason, I was about 6 seconds off the front half of the pack, and I couldn't figure out why the gap was so big. So I watched a replay of one of the races and jumped into the seat of the front runners. Lo and behold, every single one of them was using ABS. As an long-time simmer, this seemed blasphemous to me. ABS is generally seen as the easier way to maintain control, but if you want to be the fastest, you have to master braking, right? It doesn't seem so in GTS.

    I then enabled GTS, and this beautiful simulator now felt like, gasp, Wipeout! I could slam into corners at top speed, jam on the brakes, and my car would magically be stuck to the track, with no sliding no matter what I did. The skill in driving around a course suddenly plummeted, along with my interest in the game. I immediately shaved 3 seconds off my lap time after just two laps using ABS. It totally transformed the experience. Thinking that this would be disabled in higher leagues than the piddling beginners round I'm doing, I then discovered that ABS is used in every single official race (please correct me if I'm wrong). From all of the discussions I've read, all of the leaderboard drivers use it. I worry about those GTS drivers who get lucky enough to drive a real racing car, as they're heading straight for the wall.

    My joy has turned into dismay. My question then is whether there is a league that forces ABS and TCS off? I know most drivers don't use TCS, but ABS is the norm from what I've read. And, for me, it's turned a serious driving game into a slot-car simulator. Would love to hear the thoughts of more experienced drivers on here - it'd be a huge relief to hear that disabling ABS is indeed faster when using a wheel and pedals, or there is a series that forces it off.
     
  2. Nuschel01

    Nuschel01

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    There is a TT Cup that‘s racing without ABS, maybe @Sparkz_360 knows more about that.

    Other than that I guess 95% of races allow ABS and I don‘t really think it‘s a bad thing and in my opinion what you said about how one can drive with ABS turned on isn‘t really the case :D
     
  3. kilesa4568

    kilesa4568

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    2,428
    So that I don't disappoint you, I'm not going to tell you that ABS will always be quicker in this particular game or that the penalty system doesn't lend itself too well to people locking up too often.
     
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  4. Riptide

    Riptide Premium

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    I've found in FORZA [FM7] that you're certainly faster without ABS, but in GTS that's not the case, well at least not for me. I've even tried a home made version of the X-BOX type of Elite Controller mechanism where you can lock the controller brakes to about 75%, but never came within two seconds of using ABS lap times. For this reason driving without ABS in GTS will never be popular in GTS as the majority of players will find it too difficult.
     
    Petroperu and Pigems like this.
  5. phil_75

    phil_75

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    You have no choice but to use ABS in this game because of the poor implementation.
    Using a DS4 even a light touch of the brake results in lock up and flying off track.

    TC is also so poorly implemented that you need to turn it off to be fast, even in wet conditions.
     
    kalakanto, 05XR8, LeGeNd-1 and 7 others like this.
  6. mthomas_95

    mthomas_95

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    720
    A lot of these 'real racing cars' will have ABS along with a whole range of driving aids. Get over yourself :lol:
     
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  7. MatskiMonk

    MatskiMonk Premium

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    Errr... yeah, I'm sure they'll be okay...


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    [​IMG]
     
  8. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Time #156423 of saying most race cars nowadays have ABS and drivers are fully relying on it. If you think no-ABS in GT is any realistic, the issue is on your side.
     
  9. RacingFan1

    RacingFan1

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    235
    I think braking is one of the weakest parts of GT Sport physics, indeed.

    Although I dont care about what hardcore simmers say, why would I?
     
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  10. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    To represent my point of view with the same physics of longitudinal grip but in the other way , i would like to make a comparison with the ABS.

    It's possible and easy to drive and control a car in GTS with no traction control because the lost of grip during acceleration is progressive and the reactions of the car are easy to identify and correct , mainly through visual informations and also wheel FFB.

    On the other way , lost of grip when driving no ABS is very sudden and it's almost impossible to control the car because of this. Visuals feedback and FFB are not helping at all anymore. To late 100% of the time.

    The only way to manage and interpret G-FORCE would be a physical feedback on our body. You have simulators that can cost some millions dollars for this , or a cheap device that can translate this G-FORCE but it still don't have been invented.

    I have thought few monthes ago about a FFB belt around the belly of the player , with 8 points of FFB that would put some pressure on the side that come the G-FORCE , with more or less intensity to scale this force. I think it would be a very efficient device.
     
    sundaydriving, GTR365, ynot and 10 others like this.
  11. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    1,438
    I’d say embrace the game, but interesting question for sure there.
    Pretty sure like GT3 irl those guys don’t race alfresco, or at least they have some adjustments. I applaud you for running no tcs, but you must remember few are willing to fork out that much money for a rig that allows the level of modulation of input you might have...
    I mean if you are easilymdominating the leaderboards and running circles around everyone then maybe an organized league would be an option, or you could run or join lobbies that disallow features you don’t like. I don’t use the lobbies much but a while back I ran across one with no abs. Lotta crashes. Left after the first race.
    Road cars, vintage ones squirm if you run no abs under hard braking and are a nice challenge I agree :).
    I’d be curious to hear your impression of the shifter kart at Tsukuba running alfresco as I call it, no aids. On THAT, I personally think it’s WAY better alfresco. Same for cobra, Alpine a110 (old one) I think the f1500 Brands I did sans abs and tcs and climbed high up the overall timeboard.
    A good balance for someone like you could also be running weak ABS. With that sitting the game no longer allocates grip for turning at all times like it does on default.
    Personally, I embrace the challenge of racing all the players of the game and don’t care what they run. Fast is fast.
    Plus, tcs in this game is not the devil like it is in others imo. At least for gr3 class.
    It’s just as the poster above said, lockup’s don’t make for clean dailies.
    Theoretically, according to in game info, ABS weak or off gives one MORE braking force available, so in theory that would be fastest IF someone could drive well enough to take advantage.
    It’s just quite difficult imo in the gt3 cars to A avoid lockups and B trail brake perfectly while C balancing the car correctly while using ABS off, or in many cases even weak.
    I dunno, very interesting question to be sure :). Welcome :)
    I think a huge problem in this game at say pre A rating level is the fact people don’t use tcs often. Tcs in this game rewards good technique and smooth progressive modulation of inputs, all while allowing a person to still lap, maybe just being slowed when a mistake is made and it actuated instead of losing control.
    I guess people are not all hotshoe pros with expensive rigs, but I am sure you could find those folks and run a lobby. There’s plenty of guys on here way faster than myself using nice wheels and load cells, I use that, but abs off is too difficult and inconsistent and like yourself I would be way off pace. Even abs weak for me is very combo dependent.
     
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  12. breeminator

    breeminator

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    748
    Yes, braking doesn't work the same way in GTS. In Forza, the Elite controller is totally OP because limiting the braking to a fixed percentage gives nigh on perfect braking every time, with ABS turned off. This puts wheel users at a huge disadvantage unless they rig up a physical device to limit their pedal to the same %. GTS seems to vary the % at which loss of traction occurs, so limiting it to a fixed % wouldn't work. Personally, I like the fact that ABS isn't nerfed in GTS. If we had feedback from every source available to us in real life, then fine, make braking like real life, but with the current lack of feedback, IMO it's better to accept that it's not possible to make it like real life.
     
    Voodoovaj, kilesa4568 and Riptide like this.
  13. mirial

    mirial

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    Location:
    United Kingdom
    @GunSlingerAUS

    Is ABS scaring off hardcore simmers?

    Generally no, mainly because IMO, you have a much younger generation of sim racers who I believe don't recognise the value of what you're talking about. Even the aliens don't care, and if they don't care, how can you expect anyone else too? I care because I'm about a second slower than I should be and I don't really enjoy the car's refusal to rotate early.

    You have to remember, that default ABS is still probably far too intrusive in GTS that continues to place little demand and skill on the driver and PD should really be thinking of just having one reduced setting to both maintain a high skill level and still accommodate the controller users or those without resistance braking. Only when they have a suitable tyre model and everyone has adequate resistance braking either on a controller or wheel can they finally prohibit ABS in the classes that don't have it IRL.
     
    super_gt likes this.
  14. Nomadpt1

    Nomadpt1

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    Location:
    Portugal
    Have you tried using the controller sensitivity at max (7 I think) because I started using it at max a few updates back and both DS4 and the T300 felt a lot more precise in every single aspect of driving the car around.
     
    ynot and The Cake like this.
  15. GTPorsche

    GTPorsche

    Messages:
    21,169
    Changing sensitivity doesn't change the fact that braking overall is poorly represented in the game and both the usage of ABS and not using ABS are flawed physics in game.
     
  16. kjeldsen

    kjeldsen

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    1,181
    Every time i see a puff of smoke from a car under breaking i feel nothing but respect for the player that enables hard mode without it really being required. Would i do it myself.. no way, i have more than enough i need to handle..
     
  17. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    5,094
    I hope this isn't the same guy who argued and got banned from the other thread for arguing with a moderator about this stuff, aight.
     
    ThePotatoKing likes this.
  18. John G

    John G

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    250
    Yet i can absolutely feel through the wheel, (plus audio and visual cues), when ive locked a wheel in assetto corsa.
    If GTS had better physics and FFB, ABS might not be necessary / faster? Sadly, i can't see that happening
     
  19. TonyJZX

    TonyJZX

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    3,030
    This is one of those Gran Turismo things that's been around for 20 yrs plus. We have always used ABS so we dont question it.

    Thing is Forza going back to the x360 and even Forza 2 on the Xbox Original had better triggers for accel, braking so I used to always run ABS off, TCS off, STM off...

    I only have a G29 and even I feel that ABS off is hard but I have largely degenerated into a caveman moron who drives cars with no finesse and its all big time powerslides and hit the anchors at the 50 yard mark because... eh that's how I want to drive in GT Sport so the fact I banging on the ABS every corner doesnt bother me.
     
  20. Granadier

    Granadier

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    Location:
    United States
    New account with a single post creating this thread to complain about ABS... :dunce:
     
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  21. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    5,094
    Yeah. I forgot the other thread actually involved talking about the TCS, not ABS. Regardless, they're still related to the implementation of driving physics in the game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  22. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Go play AC or PCars 2. Totally better sim than GTS
     
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  23. GunSlingerAUS

    GunSlingerAUS

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    I'm just a brand new GTS fan who absolutely loves the game with the exception of ABS. Don't worry, I'm not another guy who complained about the same thing - if I find this to be an ongoing issue with no resolution, I simply won't play GTS any more.

    However, after a few more hours of trying to master non-ABS braking, I think I'm actually getting closer to the performance of ABS users. I come from years of iRacing and other sim experience where the ability to balance the grip point between braking, cornering and accelerating is crucial, and I think I'm slowly getting this in GTS. Doing so seems to give me better cornering ability than ABS drivers. Having said that, it'll take much more time to really get to the bottom of this - I can see myself easily beating the ABS guys in the beginner classes, but whether that holds true in the big leagues is tbd. Seeing that all the pros use ABS suggests not.
     
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  24. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    In which you'll still end up running ABS in GT3 cars applying 100% pressure because that's how real race drivers drive race cars. Gaetan Paletou will tell you you should just brain dead stomp on the brake pedal, and David Perel will tell you you're actively trying to make ABS kick in.
     
  25. GunSlingerAUS

    GunSlingerAUS

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    5
    Wow, you've mirrored exactly what I've been coming to think over the last day - and here I was wondering if I was just an overly critical old grump! Can you imagine how amazing GTS would be if there were races that disabled all ABS? Sure, the tyre model might not be up to par, but from my early impressions it's good enough that resistance braking can be done. I'm starting to get quite adept at it in fact, and was equalling the best lap times in my ABS-crowded sessions. Albeit, I'm only experienced in the road cars - could be a totally different story in dedicated race cars.
     
  26. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    1,438
    Did you try weak abs? No reply to my comment at all?
    The one thing...

    Personally, the more I think about it, from what I can see and what my experience is of people who ‘hardcore sim’ they seem very intent to argue all the time. There’s a couple who come across friendly honest and positive, but overall on the net all I see is a gigantic pissing contest coming from the majority of the sim community that exists outside GTS.
    I haven’t seen them with much of a sense of humor or telling funny anecdotes, tbh the majority of what I have seen from what is commonly referred to as the ‘hardcore sim’ community is a bunch of toxicity.

    If I was a developer I wouldn’t wanna attract the negative ones. Why would a franchise like GTS even care about some niche community that can’t agree on what color the sky is much less what constitutes a good sim?
     
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  27. GunSlingerAUS

    GunSlingerAUS

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    That's really interesting to hear - so ABS is used in modern day racing, and the stomp-brake method is legit? If so, this could change the way I approach GTS. See, I drive sims to replicate the real world experience. Sure, the art of trailbraking is fun, but if it's no longer a part of modern racing, perhaps I need to let it go?

    Sorry, no, I haven't tried it yet. Will try tonight, thanks for the tip.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2019
  28. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Yeah well essentially with weak if you cry uncle and go 100 percent, it goes abs. Before that though gives more control.
     
  29. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    It depends on the class of racing you are talking about, as an example, GT3 cars run with ABS in reality, while GTE cars do not.

    However, it's not helped by the fact that GTS implements ABS very poorly (compounded by the issues with the tyre model) which makes it difficult to trail brake with ABS, which absolutely should not be the case. Titles such as AC and PC2 both allow this and recreate ABS well, particularly in race-spec vehicles, in which ABS systems operate is quite a different way to the systems you find in road cars.

    Its easier to manage running without ABS in GTS with a decent set of pedals, as you can set the lock-up point in a way that allows you to modulate the your braking far more effectively.

    I'm far from the fastest, but this is a run around Spa without ABS in a C7.

     
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  30. zzz_pt

    zzz_pt Premium

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    1) Most race cars use ABS nowadays because it's safer and faster, given the quality of the systems available

    2) diving without ABS in GTS is not competetive at all unless you want to take part in a league that only uses old cars and prohibits ABS

    3) Implementation is very poor, at best, in GTS
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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