Is GT becoming less a GAME and more a Racing Tool? A letter to Kaz!

[NixxxoN]

Who is "they", and where in my post was I bashing PD? All I'm saying is the base models are indeed made for car count because, of course, PD being PD wanted dupies to boost it to a certain number.

You say "PD only want to boost the car number" thats pointless bashing. They just wanted to add paintable versions of existing race cars, thats all... because some players want more customization.
Its quite different to me than the real useless duplicates like the 200 million miatas

That's called "affirming the consequent." You should also be aware that there are base model versions of cars that already had fictional liveries, making this argument irrelevant even if you could prove it. And that base model versions were not the only things I was talking about.

But, again: According to who?

You didnt answer my question... And which are those fictional liveries?

 

[Tornado]

You didnt answer my question...

I didn't answer your question because it was completely meaningless to the conversation. Look up what "affirming the consequent" means before responding again. I note that you have once again failed to answer the elephant in the room. I'll ask it a third time:


According to who can cars with liveries not be painted?

And which are those fictional liveries?

I'm sure that this time that you ignore the fact that I wasn't only talking about base models with my original statement, or go out of your way to ignore answering the question of who claimed that cars with liveries can't be painted, you'll come up with a reason why even a fictional livery version of a real car can't be painted and instead needs a second fictional livery for the task.

 

[TokoTurismo]

You say "PD only want to boost the car number" thats pointless bashing. They just wanted to add paintable versions of existing race cars, thats all... because some players want more customization.
Its quite different to me than the real useless duplicates like the 200 million miatas

Don't give me that, what players want is a livery editor. A livery editor can remove the standard liveries that are on any car that has them. You don't need to add the same cars just without a livery in order to paint them. So again, car count!

Got any more excuses up you sleeve?

 

[NixxxoN]

I didn't answer your question because it was completely meaningless to the conversation. Look up what "affirming the consequent" means before responding again. I note that you have once again failed to answer the elephant in the room. I'll ask it a third time:

According to who can cars with liveries not be painted?

I'm sure that this time that you ignore the fact that I wasn't only talking about base models with my original statement, or go out of your way to ignore answering the question of who claimed that cars with liveries can't be painted, you'll come up with a reason why even a fictional livery version of a real car can't be painted and instead needs a second fictional livery for the task.

I was talking about real car sponsor liveries, for example Raybrig NSX, weider HSC, Lexus Petronas, to give a few examples. Those are the stealth model ones which are fictional yes, but also different because they have less weight and more power.
I suppose its because of licensing issues that you can't modify their appearance, but thats how it is.
And please dont talk in philosopher mode to me (affirming the consequent, elephant in the room...).

Don't give me that, what players want is a livery editor. A livery editor can remove the standard liveries that are on any car that has them. You don't need to add the same cars just without a livery in order to paint them. So again, car count!
Got any more excuses up you sleeve?

But this is GT, and there is no livery editor, at least for now, so thats how they do it -they add a base model to be painted in any color. You may have confused the GT with another game.

 

[Tornado]

I was talking about real car sponsor liveries, for example Raybrig NSX, weider HSC, Lexus Petronas, to give a few examples.

And you still haven't answered the question.

Those are the stealth model ones which are fictional yes, but also different because they have less weight and more power.

And the performance differences are irrelevant. Even moreso because those differences are just as fictional as the liveries the cars have. PD made up the fact that the made up version of the real life car with the made up livery also has made up specs. There was nothing stopping them from changing those Stealth model specs to be the same as the real car and letting the Stealth models be painted. Or making the Stealth model paintable but keeping the same specs, at the expense of being directly raceable against the one with a real livery. The Stealth Model and Base model inclusions are even more blatant number padding than the crap with the Miata.

And please dont talk in philosopher mode to me (affirming the consequent, elephant in the room...).

I take that to mean you didn't look up what it meant. I'll help you:
Johnnypenso said that the base models were examples of new duplicates.
You said that they weren't just PD increasing the car count
When asked why, you said that they couldn't simply allow you to paint cars with liveries, and that is why they included base models.
When asked why they couldn't simply allow you to paint cars with liveries, you basically said that otherwise they wouldn't have included the base models.


You did it again twice in that post:

I suppose its because of licensing issues, but thats how it is.

But this is GT, and there is no livery editor, at least for now, so thats how they do it -they add a base model to be painted in any color. You may have confused the GT with another game.

The fact that they included base models instead of letting you paint the car is not proof that they couldn't allow the player to simply paint the real cars in the game like other games do. It's proof of nothing beyond that they included base models. And the evidence we have (some circumstantial, some less so) highly suggests that they were very willing to take advantage of the "need" for completely separate cars to do something as simple as painting so they can carry around the "1200 cars" number. Just like they were very willing to include a 2005 Ford GT alongside the 2006 Ford GT so they could say the former car was "appearing for the first time in the series" and count it as a separate car when talking about what cars were new for GT6; even though neither of those things is particularly true.

Conversely, there is exactly squat saying that there was an inability to allow you to paint the regular cars.





I'll also write it nice and big:
I. Was. NOT. Only. Talking. About. Base. Models.

 

[NixxxoN]

Yes, you're right abt the stealth models, they could be painted aswell since they are fictional.
And yes real cars could be painted if other games do, but in GT they prefer to create an additional car to increase the car count, therefore they can annoy some of you No seriously, thats how they do it, GT doesnt have such an advanced customization options nor a livery editor, so thats probably the easiest option for them. I mean I suppose its way easier/faster for them to just duplicate a car and remove a real livery, rather than creating a new system for painting race cars.

Take the weider for example...

you have 5 different colors here, which are blue, red, silver, white and black. They would have to implement in the game a system for multi-color painting for those cars, and maybe other race cars have even more colours in them so its not that simle.

 

[Tornado]

It would just overwrite almost the entire livery into one base color, which GT5/GT6 already does with the two race cars you can paint as well as the several cars with stripes or vinyls that similarly become a solid color when you paint them; or slightly tint the vinyl parts of the livery to a darker shade than the color you painted it, which GT5 and GT6 also already do for some cars with stripes for vinyls; or simply ignore the graphics entirely and change the base color, which GT5 and GT6 also already both do.



They could even have it, if they can't do the above, so attempting to paint the cars with liveries loads the textures for the base models; just like most of the RMs worked in the first two GT games.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes, you're right abt the stealth models, they could be painted aswell since they are fictional.
And yes real cars could be painted if other games do, but in GT they prefer to create an additional car to increase the car count, therefore they can annoy some of you No seriously, thats how they do it, GT doesnt have such an advanced customization options nor a livery editor, so thats probably the easiest option for them. I mean I suppose its way easier/faster for them to just duplicate a car and remove a real livery, rather than creating a new system for painting race cars.

Take the weider for example...

you have 5 different colors here, which are blue, red, silver, white and black. They would have to implement in the game a system for multi-color painting for those cars, and maybe other race cars have even more colours in them so its not that simle.

It's a video game, not real life. Go to the paint shop, press a button and voila, car is all one colour. It doesn't need to be 5 colours it could simply be painted one colour, all body panels the same colour. That's the point. They could have just included one Weider and gave you the option to paint it same as all the cars with a "base" model. Instead they include it as a second car, include it in the car count and clutter up the dealership pages with it. Even better, they could have set all the "base" models up with the same livery treatment the race modified cars got from GT5. Simple enough programming and would have provided cars with at least a base livery with many paint/style options and the usual number panels.

Edit: Tree'd by an almost identical post!

 

[Flash3001]

(In an effort to save this thread derailing into another standards/no standards arguement..)

What if starting with the first GT, KAZ had to "compromise" to the needs/demands of Sony at the time to make a game? And being that GT was new IP, he wasn't exactly in the position to everything he wanted because he was not "KAZ" yet? As time passes, and the game becomes a franchise staple, now he has carte blanche to do it his way, which then evolves into a game that differs enough from the one most fell in love with? Just a theory...

I imagine things are worse now than it was before, because now they have to sell, Sony is already counting on it, then they pressure him more and more (I suppose). Maybe thats why we get Car Count, Layout Count and extremely easy IA - some people don't know GT and wants to find an arcade game, and Sony wants to sell it to then too.

 

[TokoTurismo]

But this is GT

Uhh, so?

and there is no livery editor, at least for now, so thats how they do it -they add a base model to be painted in any color. You may have confused the GT with another game.

Still can't escape for the fact that there still there for car count. What I said was a livery editor, if PD had one, will remove a car's livery, and like you said, the player can change its colour, instead of having to add the same car just in base model form in order to colour it.

@Tornado you nailed it perfectly! 👍

Edit: Cars like the Shelby Cobra Daytona can also be painted too, yet the racecars can't and need a base model in order too? Yet again, car count plays the roll.

 

[NixxxoN]

Didnt know those two race cars that could be painted up the whole livery... Well in any case with the base models you can do the same as this couple, so the only thing that annoys you is the car count? really? It annoys you that GT has so many cars compared to forza or what? Because I dont get it.
Both the Camaro of the 90's and the Cobra Daytona are arguably old race cars, pretty sure its for licensing issues that most of race cars can't be painted, esp the new ones. You should try to ask Kaz in the subforum if you really wanna know.

 

[Lawndart]

This went wayyy off topic.

GT 6 as a tool, if I was to catagorize based on how it's used then GT 6 is an "interactive marketing tool"

Whether they intended it to be or not, that's exactly what it is. All efforts to 'enhance' the game have been to enhance messaging and PR. There really is no game features being added, improved, or otherwise marketed.

GT 6 is a giant Chinese menu of cars served on race track plates. That's it, no real attempt to tie any of it together into a cohesive experience, like say... A game?!

The Senna content was a blatant confirmation of that. My reward was a promotional poof piece... No offence to the Senna instatute but that whole thing would have been better served as a seasonal event with real racing and a championship... I want to pretend either a) I can be as good as Senna or b) I can beat him. TT's are tired after a whole 'career' of them prior to the "DLC".

There really is no game left in GT, even online doesn't track progress or statistics, it's all static. And there isn't a single feature planned that will address gameplay... The closest? "Clubs"... But why is it such a low priority? Why didn't they attempt to get it in before shutting down GT 5 online?

You think track creator will be a game changer? Being able to 'create' the plate your cars are served up on? Is "racing" on a track you don't know even fun?! Mastering any track in any car is nearly impossible.

A "letter" to Kaz needs to be more of an education of how his target demograph has evolved, how his player base has aged, and how their expectations and needs have grown. GT at its best was a definitive racing franchise, it's now a marketing tool, riding the coat tails of its own legacy, slightly more advanced than those flash game marketing tools. Bring the game back...

GT series needs "gamafacation"... How ironic...

 

[C_Raccoon23]

No NO NOOO! I can't think of many things that would be worse than mixing Horizon with anything. I hated that game to no end.

I like Forza and I pre-ordered Horizon unfortunately. I tried to give it to my brother but after a couple of days he brought it back and said he did not want it so I traded it in on something else. That is the only racing game to date that I got rid of after just a few days of playing.

GT should never mimic anything like Horizon nor should any other racing game. Reminded me a bit of an old NFS but not in a good way.

Why are you so fearful of GT taking anything from a game you apparently barely gave a chance?

I agree with his point. Some tracks in GT really need some life injected into them. Desolate Spa immediately comes to mind. It feels abandoned. As much as I like the track itself, I sometimes have difficulty wanting to drive on it because it's almost empty. The only signs of life are a few people sitting in the grandstands at the start/finish line. Capturing the atmosphere of a racing event is an important part of making the game exciting and Horizon does a really good job at that.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Why are you so fearful of GT taking anything from a game you apparently barely gave a chance?

The game did not deserve the chance I gave it. Sad really, I had hoped it would at least entertain me for a couple of weeks but nope. No tracks, open world only, having to drive to the races, crazy AI all over the map crashing you even when you are not racing, those stupid things where you got to drive around and look for a barn or look for signs to run over.

It had 3 things in it that were good, Cars, Leaderboards and Rival challenges, the game over all was lame and did not deserve the Forza name on it. You could not even tune the cars for crying out loud. In many ways it was like an inferior version of NFS UG2

 

[Lawndart]

The game did not deserve the chance I gave it. Sad really, I had hoped it would at least entertain me for a couple of weeks but nope. No tracks, open world only, having to drive to the races, crazy AI all over the map crashing you even when you are not racing, those stupid things where you got to drive around and look for a barn or look for signs to run over.

It had 3 things in it that were good, Cars, Leaderboards and Rival challenges, the game over all was lame and did not deserve the Forza name on it. You could not even tune the cars for crying out loud. In many ways it was like an inferior version of NFS UG2

I could not get over the music festival BS, that was already done in Need for Speed: Pro Street... Not just corny, but not even original.

 

[JAHHAJ]

GT is a driving simulator not a racing simulator as long as the physics are good and I can have fun driving cars in the game, I don't care whether it's a racing tool. GT is probably a racing tool now I agree but, I don't see why this matters, if Kaz cares about GT being a racing tool, he'll step up the A.I. (we can live in hope).

 

[jimipitbull]

1. Racing is a game
2. Games are tools
3. You need tools to make games.

 

[fortbo]

Pffff. combine gameplay? NO
Gran Turismo is Gran Turismo, it is also called "The real driving simulator"
But realism? okay.
1. before entering a race, the option for qualify for a pole position, and then a proper start with green light, no rolling starts ( only nascar) en not always start as the last car.
2. car crash? yellow flag. maybe even a added cone at the oil from the crash added to warn you afterwards.
3. More tracks, less standard cars or replace them with newer or other models.
4. F1 serie, yes, we lost the ferrari F1, we got the formula Gran Turismo cars, but where are the races??
5. the option to win a carticket back.GT5 online season event, 5 races gold? Car or car ticket.

It's easy to think about things, but it is also difficult to think about things to keep Gran Turismo to be Gran Turismo.
Like Rafael wrote, it is easyer to apply GT6 physics to other games.
The driving is realistic, but the feeling is gone, or less then i had in GT5.

greetz

Lemans use rolling starts too.

 

[Com Fox]

I wish GT events would go back to the days of GT4 where there was so many which were all fun (except for that 360 race) and some were even challenging and the events all gave every car a purpose (except those pre-1900 cars).

If we see another GT single player like GT4s single player I would be so happy.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

The game did not deserve the chance I gave it. Sad really, I had hoped it would at least entertain me for a couple of weeks but nope. No tracks, open world only, having to drive to the races, crazy AI all over the map crashing you even when you are not racing, those stupid things where you got to drive around and look for a barn or look for signs to run over.

It had 3 things in it that were good, Cars, Leaderboards and Rival challenges, the game over all was lame and did not deserve the Forza name on it. You could not even tune the cars for crying out loud. In many ways it was like an inferior version of NFS UG2

While I do disagree with your post, I will only comment on the bold portions. The free run AI DO make an attempt to avoid you. The best way to test this is to just sit in the middle of a narrow, two laned road and they will drive around you. Just like in real life, they won't always be successful in other situations, but they do try. The discount signs are completely optional and only encourage you to explore the map and rewards you for doing so in the form of discounted car parts. I don't see the issue.

To each his own though. The game clearly had a different target demographic from the main series Forza, so it wasn't going to appeal to everyone. Horizon is like Forza on its day off, so I for one was glad there was no tuning (Which we probably didn't get because the game used Forza 4's physics which had to handle off-roading and jumps, something I don't think NFSUG2 had to worry about). You may think it does not deserve the Forza name (which it technically doesn't have; we got Forza Horizon in 2012, not Forza Motorsport 5, and the game wasn't even made by T10), but apparently the game was successful enough to spawn a sequel. I will be getting Horizon 2 day one when it comes out this September.

I could not get over the music festival BS, that was already done in Need for Speed: Pro Street... Not just corny, but not even original.

I personally don't look for original themes in racing games, just good execution of the racing itself. Just look at disasters like NFS Undercover. It tried too hard to be the first racing game that made you feel like you were in a movie, and as a result, the gameplay suffered.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic post.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Another fan of GT since 1998 here, and I have to say, I like where GT is going. I've spent more time on GT5 and 6 than I have on 1-4 combined, which is weird because I have "responsibilities" now...

The more realism, the better. If you want a sim that's not a sim, then you don't want a sim.

 

[Com Fox]

Another fan of GT since 1998 here, and I have to say, I like where GT is going. I've spent more time on GT5 and 6 than I have on 1-4 combined, which is weird because I have "responsibilities" now...

The more realism, the better. If you want a sim that's not a sim, then you don't want a sim.

I like the sim. I just wish the single player mode is more enjoyable.

I would love a GT game with:
GT6 Physics
GT6 Cars
Online
Coarse Maker
GT6, GT4 tracks as well as SSR11.
GT4 like single player career.

A combo of both sim and game.

 

[dddsprayshop]

Lemans use rolling starts too.

Yes, some races do have rolling starts in real life.
But lets be honest, The only races that don't apply rolling starts are:
The redbull races ( kart,junior,standard,vettel)
The kart races.
The braking and slalom licence challenges.
The Cone challenges.
The moon..
Goodwood.

But hear me out.
We got Hotlap time season events, and we got the career races.
Why not combine them? Do a hotlap for a poleposition in the career race.
Don't you agree, this would be a nice addition to the game?

And i don't know if anyone remembers, But the classic le Mans start, was a running start.
They did one again in 2012 with classic racecars
That would be fun, but i don't want to go that far, to much programming for PolyPhony.

 

[Flash3001]

I like the sim. I just wish the single player mode is more enjoyable.

I would love a GT game with:
GT6 Physics
GT6 Cars
Online
Coarse Maker
GT6, GT4 tracks as well as SSR11.
GT4 like single player career.

A combo of both sim and game.

I used to love GT4 driving missions. The last one was the coolest kkkk

 

[Flash3001]

Another fan of GT since 1998 here, and I have to say, I like where GT is going. I've spent more time on GT5 and 6 than I have on 1-4 combined, which is weird because I have "responsibilities" now...

The more realism, the better. If you want a sim that's not a sim, then you don't want a sim.

I believe for me the order is: 4, 2, 5, 6 (so far), 3, 1

 

[dazzi]

GT4 as others have mentioned here, is probably where GT peaked for me. It was and still is the most polished and complete racing game I have ever seen. Sure they dumped the online at the last minute, but single player wise it was polished like no other racing game was or has been since. From the events, cars, graphics for the playstation 2 at the time, it was perfection. Even the map menu in GT4 gave it a feel like no other racing game, sure I may be a bit nostalgic now, but it's more than just that, Polyphony have taken a bite of more than they can handle and most of it has become a half arsed job. Take for example the E3 2009 trailer, the showing of WRC, that turned into nothing more than 3 quick events. They should have taken what GT4 had left behind and evolved it from there, Gt5 and Gt6 feel like they've started from scratch and have gotten no where. At least with Gt1-4 you can see the progression even if it's just through the menu's and events. It's what made GT famous, not the fact that they have a partnership with the FIA which nothing will come out of anyways, maybe one or two events. Do what you're good at, there is no need to be a Jack of all trades and a master of none, you get no where.

 

[CrazyBrazilian]

In fact, GT7 will be a tool...

The game will come by DLC...