Is the 360 holding back an entire generation?

[Lilday]

Hey, without causing a console war I'd like to see what you guys think about the question.

First of all here is my view...

I was in a lecture today about the video game industry etc (Completing a 'Computing in Society' module at University, Computer Games Technology is included in the course). And when talking about the capabilities of hardware it got me thinking, wondering why I'd never thought of this before.

The PS3 is overall a better machine (Again - forget the console wars, the PS3 is a more powerful and capable machine based on its hardware specification.) However the bigger issue is the Blu-Ray format. The dual layer disc allows up to 50GB of data to be stored, whereas the 360 is limited to 9GB discs.

Developers who develop games on multi-platforms must therefore compromise the PS3's capabilities to suit the needs of the 360. If they make a game exclusive to PS3 they loose the majority of their market, and so to keep everybody happy games like Need for Speed, Call of Duty and Fallout are created, and then slightly edited to fit on either the 360 or PS3.

So developers are handicapped, in the way that their games could include 5x more content if they developed all games on a blu-ray level.

The 360 occupies more of the market than the PS3, so developers of course want to make money. They are scared to release for example... Grant theft auto 5 on PS3 @ 50GB and on 360 @ 9GB because the differences would be endless, and 360 fans would think that the developers are treating them badly and cause mayhem on the internet.

I hope I've explained what I mean - Its hard to explain without getting all mixed up haha, I'll try and shorten it...

TLDR:
Is the 360 handicapping game developers by limiting them to 9GB, when they could be developing at 50GB? Therefore holding back the entire generation of video games until MicroSoft come up with a more capable machine?

 

[E28]

Well, Microsoft are rumoured to be releasing the Xbox 720 (not sure if it'll be called that?) in 2012, so game developers won't be waiting long.

 

[daan]

TLDR:
Is the 360 handicapping game developers by limiting them to 9GB, when they could be developing at 50GB? Therefore holding back the entire generation of video games until MicroSoft come up with a more capable machine?

No.

Your argument seems to based on both machines optical drive capacity which is a daft thing to base an argument on. Are PS exclusive games on blu ray all over 9GB in size?

Throughout videogame history, there has always been this situation of a so called "inferior" machine holding back its so called "superior" peers. Spectrum holding back the C64 and CPC464. Atari ST holding back the Amiga and both of them holding back the Archimedes. We're not in a bad position currently considering we've been getting "held back" for years.

 

[Lilday]

Sure, but we could be in a better position if we were not held back.

I mean if both consoles had a maximum disc space of 50GB, there is no denying that games would have advanced at a much faster pace, and to a higher standard. We would be seeing more games like GT5 & Uncharted 2, which would both be impossible to create to the same quality on the 360.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Sure, but we could be in a better position if we were not held back.

I mean if both consoles had a maximum disc space of 50GB, there is no denying that games would have advanced at a much faster pace, and to a higher standard. We would be seeing more games like GT5 & Uncharted 2, which would both be impossible to create to the same quality on the 360.

But look at the flip side, by producing smaller games you get them more frequently.

Could you imagine if you had to wait years, and years for a sequel to all of your favourite games?

And lets not forget that the attention span of many is shorter and we live in a throaway society where short and sweet often out sells strengthens-with-time.

 

[Enigma]

No.

Your argument seems to based on both machines optical drive capacity which is a daft thing to base an argument on. Are PS exclusive games on blu ray all over 9GB in size?

Throughout videogame history, there has always been this situation of a so called "inferior" machine holding back its so called "superior" peers. Spectrum holding back the C64 and CPC464. Atari ST holding back the Amiga and both of them holding back the Archimedes. We're not in a bad position currently considering we've been getting "held back" for years.

My ZX81 wasn't inferior, it had a membrane keyboard

 

[Lilday]

But look at the flip side, by producing smaller games you get them more frequently.

Could you imagine if you had to wait years, and years for a sequel to all of your favourite games?

And lets not forget that the attention span of many is shorter and we live in a throaway society where short and sweet often out sells strengthens-with-time.

I guess the reason why games like Uncharted 2 and GT5 take so long though is the smaller dev teams. I mean if companies like EA had the freedom of 50GB games I think they would have the man power to squeeze them out faster than Polyphony etc.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I guess the reason why games like Uncharted 2 and GT5 take so long though is the smaller dev teams. I mean if companies like EA had the freedom of 50GB games I think they would have the man power to squeeze them out faster than Polyphony etc.

But when you're making something bigger there's always a point of saturation where no matter how many people you throw at it you won't make it any faster.

So EA games would no doubt produce games faster that PD, but to truly use the extra space, and not necessarily all of it, it should still take longer to develop than current 9GB games.

On a side point, I was under the impression that Xbox360 games use quite strong compression in order to squeeze as much onto the disk as possible, in relation to the PS3 anyway.

 

[Terronium-12]

Hey, without causing a console war I'd like to see what you guys think about the question.

First of all here is my view...

I was in a lecture today about the video game industry etc (Completing a 'Computing in Society' module at University, Computer Games Technology is included in the course). And when talking about the capabilities of hardware it got me thinking, wondering why I'd never thought of this before.

The PS3 is overall a better machine (Again - forget the console wars, the PS3 is a more powerful and capable machine based on its hardware specification.) However the bigger issue is the Blu-Ray format. The dual layer disc allows up to 50GB of data to be stored, whereas the 360 is limited to 9GB discs.

Developers who develop games on multi-platforms must therefore compromise the PS3's capabilities to suit the needs of the 360. If they make a game exclusive to PS3 they loose the majority of their market, and so to keep everybody happy games like Need for Speed, Call of Duty and Fallout are created, and then slightly edited to fit on either the 360 or PS3.

So developers are handicapped, in the way that their games could include 5x more content if they developed all games on a blu-ray level.

The 360 occupies more of the market than the PS3, so developers of course want to make money. They are scared to release for example... Grant theft auto 5 on PS3 @ 50GB and on 360 @ 9GB because the differences would be endless, and 360 fans would think that the developers are treating them badly and cause mayhem on the internet.

I hope I've explained what I mean - Its hard to explain without getting all mixed up haha, I'll try and shorten it...

TLDR:
Is the 360 handicapping game developers by limiting them to 9GB, when they could be developing at 50GB? Therefore holding back the entire generation of video games until MicroSoft come up with a more capable machine?

Couple of things...

The PS3 is a more capable machine based on the Cell BE, and Cell BE alone. The rest of it's hardware components, are well, quite paltry to be honest. XDR has more efficient bandwidth as opposed to the R500's use of GDDR3, but more efficient or not a 256-bit wide memory bus is just that - 256-bits no matter how high the clock speed is. Also, you seem to have a complete misunderstanding for the space occupied on any media format. If Disc A has a maximum density of, say, 98GB per layer (and 196GB per dual layer disc) that's obviously the superior format in terms of virtually uncompressed storage. If Disc B has a maximum density of, say, 65GB per layer (and 130GB per dual layer disc) then this is obviously the inferior format in terms of virtually uncompressed storage. Now, Disc A will almost always be chosen over Disc B because it has a 51% increase in storage density, but does that make Disc A anymore capable than Disc B? The short answer is a combination of both 'yes' and 'no'. The only real difference between the two is whomever uses Disc A will have more storage density to work with, therefore the potential of (virtually) uncompressed media is there.

A game that, for comparison's sake that occupies approximately 77GB is in no way, shape, or form better then that same game that occupies 52GB on another format. It only means that the former was able to be properly optimized for Disc A, and the latter had to be compressed to some extent to occupy Disc B. Do you lose anything? More often than not the answer is simply no, but some features are occasionally handicapped if it risks threatening the density threshold of the "inferior" media format. However, in occasions such as that one it's mostly the result of a deadline.

Now, if you want to discuss something handicapping developers then I'll go right back to Cell. It's programming language is ridiculous. It favors top-end efficiency above all else; STI has actually been tasked with finding a school (which has already been done) that is to strengthen the support for the Cell BE by essentially 'breeding' in-house programmers. Also, for your question of Microsoft holding the industry back with the use of DVD - the answer is no. DVD is and will continue to be a mainstream format. Now, while Blu-ray has somewhat supplanted DVD in terms of quality, what do you think Blu-ray is? It's a DVD.

Also, with HVD and 5D DVD looking to go commercial within the next decade or so, Blu-ray may or may not be around long enough to actually succeed at, well, succeeding DVD in it's entirety.

 

[LaBounti]

Also, with HVD and 5D DVD looking to go commercial within the next decade or so, Blu-ray may or may not be around long enough to actually succeed at, well, succeeding DVD in it's entirety.
[/B]

With DVD and Blu-ray there are 2 formats, for SD and HD. Nothing will survive against blu-ray with no practical use that can sell. Formats do not sell them selves. VHS hung around with DVD for years, DVD and BRD will be the same. A new format would need to do somehting more than offer more capacity to put a dent in the HD market.

 

[Terronium-12]

With DVD and Blu-ray there are 2 formats, for SD and HD. Nothing will survive against blu-ray with no practical use that can sell. Formats do not sell them selves. VHS hung around with DVD for years, DVD and BRD will be the same. A new format would need to do somehting more than offer more capacity to put a dent in the HD market.

I can't speak much for 5D as I honestly just heard of it as I made that post, but as far as HVD is concerned it already has a place in the industry with businesses, and it's quite the capable format. As far as a commercial release goes...I honestly don't see people being ready for it at the moment, which is why it'd be better if it were released in the next decade or so. As for 5D, well, that just obliterates both of 'em in terms of storage density (10TB), and that's about everything I know of 5D at the moment.

 

[LJ]

The 4 year old tech of the PS3 holding something back? Say what

i think the PS3may be holding itself back from what I have read with it being more difficult for developers to work with than the xbox

 

[LaBounti]

As for 5D, well, that just obliterates both of 'em in terms of storage density (10TB), and that's about everything I know of 5D at the moment. [/B]

Yes but with no practical consumer use, it would be dead before it came out.