Is the IRL too dangerous?

[Earth]

Since the series ineption in 1996, there have been 3 driver deaths, deaths of several spectators, the careers of at least 4 drivers ended by injuries sustained in accidents, as well as a host of other numerous injuries such as broken bones etc.

My biggest gripe with the series is how they run the cars on the high banked NASCAR ovals which were not built for them. Running these cars on the high banked ovals creates pack racing, which is dangerous enough in cars with fenders at 180mph, but openwheel cars at 220mph?

Indianapolis may be very fast, but the flat tight corners do not allow for pack racing thus the risk of an incident is lowered dramatically.

Do you think the IRL is too dangerous, if so, what should they do?

 

[niky]

3 drivers in nearly fifteen years? That's not terrible. I mean... death in motorsports is a horrible thing, but there are worse records.

Several spectators? On ovals? How?

 

[mafia_boy]

From tyres flying off the car and into the stands niky. 👍

 

[LSX]

I don't think it's TOO dangerous, though, running places like Texas Motorspeedway, at the speeds they do is, well very dangerous. It skates a thin line really, there is no need to go that fast on a 1.5 mile oval. I don't know what they could do to change the situation, aside from running more of Americas great road courses, which there are plenty of. Or just develop something similar to an ALMS prototype body that puts more structure between the drivers and whatever they may collide with. Most ovals in America are safer than any road course I can think of, with the Safer Barrier, and catch fencing. But as Carl Edwards showed, that comes down quite easily if it's not heavily reinforced like the Superspeedway's have now.

I know what is too dangerous involving the IRL, they plan to come to Daytona once it's re-surfaced and the bumps ground down. They've already tested it and it's approved to be on the schedule once the new surface is down. Speaking of which, that will be happening soon, as even the Cup cars are running into issues with them. I mean, I'll go and watch, but still, that's downright crazy.

 

[Northstar]

I know what is too dangerous involving the IRL, they plan to come to Daytona once it's re-surfaced and the bumps ground down. They've already tested it and it's approved to be on the schedule once the new surface is down. Speaking of which, that will be happening soon, as even the Cup cars are running into issues with them. I mean, I'll go and watch, but still, that's downright crazy.

I didn't know they were doing that, I would hate to see the "big one"with IRL cars.

 

[Sharky.]

From tyres flying off the car and into the stands niky. 👍

That's mostly down to track design though, it's not the IRL's fault if the safety fence can't stop a wheel from bonking some beer-drinking guy on the head. Spectators have died at Le Mans, let's demand that all Le Mans cars are made safer! (etc etc)

IRL cars are safe... hell, Scott Dixon took an upside-down Dario to the face* at Michigan in '07 and they both walked away without a scratch. There's been countless accidents where a driver has drilled the wall quite heavily and walked away... three driver deaths in 13 years? That's not bad for a series with 220mph+ open-wheelers (and Milka Duno).

My biggest gripe with the series is how they run the cars on the high banked NASCAR ovals which were not built for them. Running these cars on the high banked ovals creates pack racing, which is dangerous enough in cars with fenders at 180mph, but openwheel cars at 220mph?

IRL drivers are aware they're in open-wheelers, and as such drive appropriately. You won't see IRL cars running four wide and six deep, because the drivers know that'll only end in disaster. NASCAR cars are somewhat more forgiving and as such don't have wheels fall off with even slight contact, so they *can* run four wide without too much danger.



*well, not really. But it was close enough...

 

[niky]

From tyres flying off the car and into the stands niky. 👍

Ouch. But that has happened in a lot of sports.

Even with the tethers in F1... it's still possible for wheels to fly off... as we've seen this past season.

 

[mafia_boy]

That's mostly down to track design though, it's not the IRL's fault if the safety fence can't stop a wheel from bonking some beer-drinking guy on the head. Spectators have died at Le Mans, let's demand that all Le Mans cars are made safer! (etc etc)

Never said it was the IRL's fault though, it does boil down to track design...like Scott Kalitta's (NHRA) funny car crash at Englishtown. But in saying that, the IRL does approve to use those tracks, so they should have foresight of what could happen.

IRL cars are safe... hell, Scott Dixon took an upside-down Dario to the face* at Michigan in '07 and they both walked away without a scratch. There's been countless accidents where a driver has drilled the wall quite heavily and walked away... three driver deaths in 13 years? That's not bad for a series with 220mph+ open-wheelers (and Milka Duno).

But then think of Alex Zanardi (can't remember if it was IRL or CART, but it was open-wheeler!)......everytime that image hits my head I still quiver because I honestly saw a leg fly out of the car during that impact!

IRL drivers are aware they're in open-wheelers, and as such drive appropriately. You won't see IRL cars running four wide and six deep, because the drivers know that'll only end in disaster. NASCAR cars are somewhat more forgiving and as such don't have wheels fall off with even slight contact, so they *can* run four wide without too much danger.

They do run four wide at places like Indy when traffic becomes a problem though just so they can keep their pace up.

Ouch. But that has happened in a lot of sports.

Even with the tethers in F1... it's still possible for wheels to fly off... as we've seen this past season.

Very true aswell. 👍

 

[Ardius]

Ouch. But that has happened in a lot of sports.

Even with the tethers in F1... it's still possible for wheels to fly off... as we've seen this past season.

They are designed to break at a certain point, otherwise the tethers would rip whole chunks of the car apart - its about dissipating the energy.

But anyway, yeah, IRL doesn't sound anymore dangerous than any other motorsport these days. And you have to keep in mind that the open-cockpit design will always be inherently dangerous to the driver's head - no matter where you make them race.

 

[czechmate]

They are designed to break at a certain point, otherwise the tethers would rip whole chunks of the car apart - its about dissipating the energy.

But anyway, yeah, IRL doesn't sound anymore dangerous than any other motorsport these days. And you have to keep in mind that the open-cockpit design will always be inherently dangerous to the driver's head - no matter where you make them race.

Actually the tethers were designed to not break at any point...They have nothing to do with dissipitating energy.

 

[Ardius]

If the tethers didn't break - wouldn't that energy instead be sent to the weakest connection? Which would assumedly be the carbon fibre? Surely this would be worse than a loose wheel?
If the tether is meant to be as solid as steel, then why not make it out of steel? Its because its also designed to dissipate energy, yes at first its meant to keep the wheel on, but there is a limit to how much you can do this before you're straining the bodywork and then you're going to be taking large pieces of carbon fibre with you too.

The energy has to go somewhere, and if you're keeping the energy from the wheel tether from releasing, then its going to be sent somewhere else on the car. Or at least thats my understanding of it.

If tethers really weren't doing their job and they are meant to stay attached at all times - how come the FIA, the teams, etc have done nothing about it?

 

[Ian Poole]

But anyway, yeah, IRL doesn't sound anymore dangerous than any other motorsport these days. And you have to keep in mind that the open-cockpit design will always be inherently dangerous to the driver's head - no matter where you make them race.

Agreed but in the end, all motorsport is dangerous no matter what.

You could make the argument about what would have happened if the spring off Barrichello's Brawn hit Massa in a different place on his helmet or what would have really happened to Dario in Kentucky if he had flipped over Matsuawa in a different direction but in the end, all motorsport has it's dangers

 

[squishydk]

Well actually, more people have died in soccer/football from being struck by lightning over the same period. Also more soccer/footies have died from heart attacks during games in same period. More (dont know english word) the guys/females riding the horses has got killed.

Even skiing got deaths. Severe injurys happens in all sports somehow, and death is a part of everyday life. The reason you notice racing more, is because it looks extremely violent when it happen, parts going everywhere etc.

I dont think racing is too dangerous at all. Actually i think theres too much help often, and in some racing classes (fx been like this in F1 for years now) its a lot about what electronic help you got in the car, and not the driver himself, that has the biggest impact on the results. All due to saftey (at least they say so). Dont get me wrong, 1 death is 1 too many..... But its not worse than so many other things.. like crossing the street to go to the baker

 

[czechmate]

If the tethers didn't break - wouldn't that energy instead be sent to the weakest connection? Which would assumedly be the carbon fibre? Surely this would be worse than a loose wheel?
If the tether is meant to be as solid as steel, then why not make it out of steel? Its because its also designed to dissipate energy, yes at first its meant to keep the wheel on, but there is a limit to how much you can do this before you're straining the bodywork and then you're going to be taking large pieces of carbon fibre with you too.

The energy has to go somewhere, and if you're keeping the energy from the wheel tether from releasing, then its going to be sent somewhere else on the car. Or at least thats my understanding of it.

If tethers really weren't doing their job and they are meant to stay attached at all times - how come the FIA, the teams, etc have done nothing about it?

The way the suspension arms collapse is how the energy is dissipitated. The tethers are attached not to the bodywork but a solid piece most probably connected to the chassis so that it doesnt break away.

I dont know what the FIA is doing about the tethers still breaking loose...I find it odd that they cant even after a several years of using them create a tether that actually works.

 

[Greycap]

And you have to keep in mind that the open-cockpit design will always be inherently dangerous to the driver's head - no matter where you make them race.

I wonder why none of the series have introduced a powerboat style canopy, basically just a curved tough-as-hell plexiglass that would be tall enough to deflect anything flying towards the driver off but still open at the top to allow rapid exit in case of an emergency. The technology of today would surely make it possible to make it both properly clear and strong enough to even take the weight of the car should it crash upside down.

 

[czechmate]

I wonder why none of the series have introduced a powerboat style canopy, basically just a curved tough-as-hell plexiglass that would be tall enough to deflect anything flying towards the driver off but still open at the top to allow rapid exit in case of an emergency. The technology of today would surely make it possible to make it both properly clear and strong enough to even take the weight of the car should it crash upside down.

I'm guessing but in F1 I believe the drivers have to be able to get themselves out of the car within a certain amount of time and an additional open ended canopy or something similar might make it next to impossible to exit the car under the required time that is allowed.

 

[TheBigMan045]

also if the catch is damaged in some way during an accident (or a hinge) and it catches fire it would be even more dangerous, mainly for this reason most if not all racing series have a maximum time to exit your car in event of a fire, even in grassroots been there done that

 

[A2K78]

All forms of racing is dangerous, but of all forms I would say MotoGP is far more dangerous than most motorsports out there, even more dangerous than NASCAR even in the wake of the Carl Edwards and Ryan Newman incidents last year.

 

[Kylehnat]

I'd say the IRL is dangerous because given the equipment, the driver quality is too low. I can't even watch IRL races anymore because they have so many crashes and yellow flags. I think it was at Watkins Glen a year or two ago where two accidents happened under yellow. The drivers are talented, but too many of them can't seem to stay out of trouble. At high speeds with open wheels, that is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Ardius]

The way the suspension arms collapse is how the energy is dissipitated. The tethers are attached not to the bodywork but a solid piece most probably connected to the chassis so that it doesnt break away.

I dont know what the FIA is doing about the tethers still breaking loose...I find it odd that they cant even after a several years of using them create a tether that actually works.

I'm not sure if you understand what I meant - if the car hits the barrier and destroys the suspension, the wheel becomes loose and swings about wildly on the tether. Now, in certain situations, the wheel may be thrown about at a speed the tether and chassis cannot take and the energy breaks the tether.
Where else is this energy meant to go? The suspension is broken at this point (which is the whole point about wheel tethers) so it doesn't even come into it.

Really, the aim of the tether is to stop wheels flying off at 100mph, after so many incidents where the wheels went flying off the track into marshals and spectators. I've yet to see a tether fail to stop this, almost all loose wheel incidents of late have been low speed, the danger comes from the high speed of the other cars potentially hitting them, as sadly happened to Henry Surtees. The tethers succeeded in taking away most of the energy, which is the best you can hope for without making unbreakable tethers that destroy the chassis, but they can't stop wheels coming off full stop in all possible scenarios, there has to be compromise.

The only high speed loose wheel I can remember is Sutil's at China 2009, where the entire front end of his car was smashed into the wall, which would inevitably damage the suspension and the tethers.

 

[F1 fan]

I voted no. In this day and age, three drivers in 15 years for one series is quite a lot. I've seen greg moore's accident, but don't know what the other two were. There are still deaths on a yearly basis in motorsport. The cars are getting safer and safer. Now, the best bet is to increase safety for crowds and marshalls, and look at more efficient ways to stop an out of control car... Ie, improved barriers, tyre walls, gravel traps etc.

Sadly, there will always be death in motorsport. Just look at Henry Surtees. Another way could be enforcing new flag rules. Making all cars slow down immediately. It might interrupt races, but with most races being monitored carefully, I'm sure fair restarts could ease the situation.

 

[Christian_C]

I've always thought the speeds in IRL to be unnecessary especially in open wheelers.

 

[Earth]

I'm not here to say I told you so, I'm here to blow the whistle on a series that is far too dangerous to be allowed to run the way it is.

Its not only the drivers at risk, but the fans in the stands too.

This is not NASCAR where when a pack crashes a bunch of boxy stock cars just bounce off each other. These cars are going 25 mph faster then NASCAR that weigh half as much and have open wheels and open cockpits. NASCAR restrictor plate racing is dangerous enough, and there are only 4 events a year.

Indy car runs these restrictor plate type races every other weekend, and they incredibly dangerous and not worth the risk to the drivers, spectators, or families.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the Dan Wheldon family.

Hopefully this leads to massive IRL changes, and if not hopefully they get shut down

 

[Christian_C]

I've always thought the speeds in IRL to be unnecessary especially in open wheelers.

In reply to the post above, I'll quote this again.

RIP Dan Wheldon.

 

[Müle]

Open wheel cars do not belong on cookie cutter, high banked mile-and-a-half tracks. But of course, TGBB is an idiot.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

IndyCar isn't dangerous but this race was, with so many cars on such a small fast track a crash was inevitable, its such a shame that when it came it was fatal

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm not here to say I told you so

Then why does it feel like you are?

Hopefully this leads to massive IRL changes, and if not hopefully they get shut down

Okay, I think you're having a massive over-reaction here. When was the last time there was a fatal accident in Indycar? Wheldon's crash will no doubt prompt a review of the series, and the necessary changes will be introduced. But I think the worst thing that can be done will be to rush through changes to the series to slow everyone down. And I think it would be a poor way to remember a man who dedicated his life to going faster.

 

[Masi_23]

Just get rid of these 1 1/2 mile ovals. Just too dangerous.

 

[HKS racer]

Oval racing is way too fast and too dangerous Too many cars catching slipstream each other.

 

[Earth]

Just get rid of these 1 1/2 mile ovals. Just too dangerous.

Pretty much this

The ovals CART raced on where short and flat, required a good handling car which broke up the packs and slowed cornering speed dramatically. The racing on them was just as good as the rediculous pack racing on these 1.5 ovals

This type of racing is just nonsense, its a miracle Ryan Briscoe, Kenny Brack and others arent dead from similiar crashes

Then why does it feel like you are?

Nobody ever does anything until its too late. This is sadly yet another example. The IRL got lucky with Briscoe, Brack, Franchitti and others surviving horrible airborne crashes on these 1.5 ovals, today their luck ran out. They put ratings ahead of the safety of the drivers.

It actually got to the point not too long ago where I refused to watch IRL races because I felt sick to the stomach looking at them, where one small mistake and someone could die.