Is the Tundra Outselling the Sierra?

[Joey D]

Toyota Tundra overtakes GMC Sierra 1500 in year-to-date sales?

Source: Autoblog

The launch of Toyota's all-new 2007 half-ton Tundra pickup has had its fair share of hiccups, but despite bumps in the road, it appears that the Japanese automaker's half-ton has become the first import pickup to overtake a domestic in year-to-date sales. According to Mike Levine at www.pickuptruck.com, it appears the GMC Sierra 1500 lost its #4 ranking in half-ton sales to the Tundra based on projections culled from production numbers.

General Motors reports that the Sierra has sold 115,185 units year-to-date. The figure, however, includes 2006 and 2007 models of the Sierra 1500, Sierra 2500 (three-quarter ton), Sierra 3500 (one-ton) and even the 2007 Sierra "Classic" based on the older GMT800 platform. GM doesn't break down the sales numbers for the Sierra by model, so Levine got creative and used production numbers for each model from both 2005 and 2006 to extrapolate what percentage of this year's sales the Sierra 1500 model was likely to be. Assuming the Sierra 1500 represents about two-thirds of all Sierra sales, that would mean GM sold 76,700 units of the truck during the first seven months of 2007. The Tundra, meanwhile, sold 105,990 units, of which 97,290 were the all-new 2007 Tundra. Based on an "apples-to-apples" comparison in sales between half-ton models, it would then seem the 2007 Toyota Tundra easily outsold GMC Sierra 1500 to become the #4 best-selling half-ton pickup in the U.S. Based on projections through the end of the year, the Tundra will likely outsell all GMC Sierra models, as well, making it the #4 best-selling truck of any kind in the U.S. behind the Ford F-150, Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram.

 

[Jim Prower]

Well, okay, the Tundra outsold a luxury-brand offshoot of the Silverado. Wouldn't think it'd be that hard to do. They should get worried when Dodge Ram gets overtaken.

 

[FoolKiller]

Funny story about the Tundra:

My Dad's neighbor was doing some landscaping and wanted some railroad timbers (large black wooden beams about 12 inches thick and ~10-12 feet long). So my dad called my uncle, who lives up the street and had some. My uncle comes up to my dad's house with them on a flatbed pulled by his tractor. Instead of letting my uncle move them to the neighbor's house the neighbor says he can just haul them down in his Tundra, which was right there. My dad and uncle both called BS on him, and he starts talking about all the stuff the commercials say it can do. So, they load them up in the bed of the truck. After they get them all loaded up the neighbor starst it up and tries to drive, but the truck won't move, at all. The engine revs up but it can't haul the weight. So they load them back on the flatbed and take them down with the tractor.

I don't know how many timbers and how much weight they were trying to transport, but my dad's neighbor was furious that his truck didn't live up to the image Toyota sold him. Good thing he didn't test pulling a cargo container up a cliff.




As for the news, I am not surprised they outsold the Sierra. The advertising has been heavily pushed and makes it look impressive.

 

[Jim Prower]

Perhaps he didn't have the top-spec engine, or the traction control wouldn't let it move....

 

[YSSMAN]

On the News: Its something that we've been hearing about for the past day or so at GMI, and from what I can tell a lot of people aren't sure how exactly the numbers are that way. The GMC by no means is a best-selling truck (leave that to the Silverado), but the way in which the numbers were created seems a bit silly (not that I can negate the basic system of doing so).

I dunno. We've had Tundras sitting on the lot here for months, and nobody has bought them. They actually have to stock them at the back of the dealer now. But then again, overall new truck sales have been quite disappointing both both GM and Toyota. I was at the Toyota dealer earlier this week and they were advertising for 0% financing for 60 months on the new Tundra, something that would seem more likely to happen next door at Chevy than at Toyota.

While I'm sure the story is meant to show that the Tundra has officially "broken into" the big-boy truck market, I'd would love to see the numbers compared to that of the Silverado, Ram, and F-150...

On FoolKiller's Tundra Story: Its something that I hear about quite often, people buying a Tundra convinced that it can do what it did on TV. A lot of people haven't realized that you have to get a lot of optional equipment to be able to achieve those standards, by which in many cases is not much better than that of a comparably equipped GMT900 or Ram.

...I'm wondering if our 2005 Avalanche would have been able to handle the task you speak of...

My Own Tundra Story: Every once in a while I like to go down to the Toyota dealer to check out their stock and see what the new stuff is like. The Tundra continues to be one of my favorite products to check up on, simply because so many of the claims about the truck that they make are so outrageous.

One of the best days was when I was walking back to my car from the back of the dealer after looking at the Tundra when a guy stopped me. It went like this:

Toyota: "Can I help you find anything?"

Me: "Not really, I was just taking a look at the Tundra and..."

Toyota: "How did you like it?"

Me: "Well, I have to say I was a little disappointed."

Toyota: "Why is that?"

Me: "Well, the panel gaps are really quite big, and I can see all the running gear beneath the truck. Oh, and I was promised a center console that can hold hanging files..."

Toyota: "I'm not authorized to talk about the Tundra... I can find someone who is..."

(Toyota guy walks away, I get in my car)

...It happens a lot. I often wonder if there are guys who are trained specifically to defend the truck...

 

[Joey D]

I honestly have not seen a new Tundra on the road here in the states yet, I saw one in London, but it was a work truck and already beat to hell. I don't hate the thing and I would like to see one in pristine condition to really get a good look at it.

 

[YSSMAN]

I've only seen three or four on the road here in Grand Rapids, but the most are sitting at the dealer. A guy in my neighborhood has one, but I drove by there the other day, and there was a new Sierra sitting there (odd...). Either he is test-driving new trucks, or he changed his mind, or he has two trucks.

 

[Tornado]

Its outselling the far less popular of the GM twins? Stop the presses!

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

FoolKiller
YSSMAN

A vehicle not living up to the images of its advertisements? That's unpossible!

Who'd have thought that they play games with numbers and capabilities to make the truck seem better? It's still better than those underwater Jeep commercials that actually had the disclaimer "WARNING: VEHICLE NOT INTENDED FOR UNDERWATER USE", though.

 

[niky]

It's not just the advertising... here's an interesting read from Autoextremist:

http://autoextremist.com

(just scroll down to the paragraphs in boldface for the On-Topic bits.)

ISSUE 406, AUGUST 1,2007

RANTS by Peter M. DeLorenzo

Lost in the insidious cycle, Detroit takes three steps forward - and five back.

Detroit. The Ford Motor Company announced last week that it had made $750 million last quarter - its first profitable quarter in two years. Subdued medium-fives all around could be heard emanating from the Glass House, because at long last progress was indeed being made. CEO Alan Mulally, after a trying first nine months on the job, could at least bask in a shred of satisfaction in the fact that the listing Ford ship was apparently turned in the right direction.

Then, General Motors announced yesterday that - much to the chagrin of Wall Street-types - it had delivered a net profit of $891 million, compared with a net loss of $3.4 billion with a "B" the year before. GM's strong performance overseas, the $139 million from its 49 percent share in GMAC and the dramatically reduced losses in its North American operations (a loss of $39 million compared to $3.95 billion the previous year) all contributed to the highly favorable performance.

But does this mean that Detroit - at least in the case of Ford and GM - is back?

In a word, no. Contrary to some of the local media reports here that gushed to the extreme, not much has really changed. Yes, there are structural improvements at both automakers. Yes, there are competitive and in some cases even class-leading products coming out of Detroit - with a renewed focus on the product overall in the Motor City that is refreshing to see, especially after witnessing the years of these two companies roaming around in the Dark Forest, which abuts the Sea of Mediocrity.

But at the same time that GM was announcing its solid turn of profitability, it was also announcing a new round of incentives for its freshly redesigned full-size Chevrolet and GMC pickups - which are languishing on dealer lots - in order to compete with the surprisingly aggressive incentives piled on Ford and Toyota pickups.

Ironically, it was Toyota - after seeing its much-touted new Tundra pickup stalled in the market - that was the culprit in triggering this latest round of incentives. The Japanese car company that's oh-so-desperate to flaunt its "American-ness" blindsided GM and Ford with huge incentives on its brand-new truck - to the tune of $3,000.00. And it worked too. Toyota jump-started the Tundra, and GM and to a lesser extent Ford were caught flat-footed.

Now, in August 2007, the auto industry in North America finds itself veering dangerously close to Incentive Hell again, just when they were starting to convince us that "value pricing," lower sticker prices and other intelligent moves to bolster resale were sending a message to the consumer public that Detroit wasn't just all about building rental cars. It was actually starting to make sense, even, but true to form, it didn't last past the realization that Toyota was willing to shamelessly put cash on the hood of its new pickup - damn the carefully crafted "tough" image in the advertising message and everything else they orchestrated for the intro - in order to move the metal.

But no matter which company is to blame this time, this insidious cycle that plagues the Detroit automakers, this glimmer of hope fueled by competitive if not outstanding new products, only to be slammed by the fundamental reality that incentives and rebates are not only standing operating procedure for Detroit in the North American market - it's their destiny - is keeping Detroit in a sick limbo of recurring failure.

And they can't escape it.

I believe the future profitability for the Detroit automakers is solely dependent on how good their overseas operations perform. Must they continue to compete and claw for every point of share in the North American market? Of course. But their performance in North America will be as much for image, pride and bragging rights as anything else.

The Holy Grail for both GM and Ford, however, the notion that one day they'll achieve consistent profitability in their North American operations - will remain unattainable. Because as long as the "insidious cycle" is in play, it's notgonnahappen.com.

Thanks for listening, see you next Wednesday.

Very interesting... Toyota really is American at heart...

 

[FoolKiller]

FoolKiller
YSSMAN

A vehicle not living up to the images of its advertisements? That's unpossible!

Who'd have thought that they play games with numbers and capabilities to make the truck seem better? It's still better than those underwater Jeep commercials that actually had the disclaimer "WARNING: VEHICLE NOT INTENDED FOR UNDERWATER USE", though.

Wait, does this mean that my Volkswagen can't float and doesn't really have an airtight seal?


I'm sure we are all fully aware that the advertisements are far from true. I know when I saw the Tundra ad where it pulled the cargo container up the cliff face I had two questions: 1) What kind of pulley setup are they using? 2) Where can I get a set of those tires?

 

[Jim Prower]

Well, what you couldn't see in that commercial was rather simple: It was an empty container. Those things are mostly air, so it looks more impressive than it is. they even say it's "6,400 Lbs Dead weight," which was probably measured at the drawbar, and isn't a whole lot in the world of towing.

Believe me, had that been loaded, the truck would be at the bottom of the quarry.

 

[JCE]

Funny story about the Tundra:

My Dad's neighbor was doing some landscaping and wanted some railroad timbers (large black wooden beams about 12 inches thick and ~10-12 feet long). So my dad called my uncle, who lives up the street and had some. My uncle comes up to my dad's house with them on a flatbed pulled by his tractor. Instead of letting my uncle move them to the neighbor's house the neighbor says he can just haul them down in his Tundra, which was right there. My dad and uncle both called BS on him, and he starts talking about all the stuff the commercials say it can do. So, they load them up in the bed of the truck. After they get them all loaded up the neighbor starst it up and tries to drive, but the truck won't move, at all. The engine revs up but it can't haul the weight. So they load them back on the flatbed and take them down with the tractor.

I don't know how many timbers and how much weight they were trying to transport, but my dad's neighbor was furious that his truck didn't live up to the image Toyota sold him. Good thing he didn't test pulling a cargo container up a cliff.

If I were a Tundra owner I'd sue due to false advertising. The commercials in question say "actual test" but oddly choose not to disclose ALL of the data needed to make an accurate representation of the trucks capabilities.

As for the news, I am not surprised they outsold the Sierra. The advertising has been heavily pushed and makes it look impressive.

I find those adverts rediculously retarded.

On FoolKiller's Tundra Story: Its something that I hear about quite often, people buying a Tundra convinced that it can do what it did on TV. A lot of people haven't realized that you have to get a lot of optional equipment to be able to achieve those standards, by which in many cases is not much better than that of a comparably equipped GMT900 or Ram.

Or F150. Even with its power slighly less than those two it still can tow/haul a crapload.

My Own Tundra Story: Every once in a while I like to go down to the Toyota dealer to check out their stock and see what the new stuff is like. The Tundra continues to be one of my favorite products to check up on, simply because so many of the claims about the truck that they make are so outrageous.

One of the best days was when I was walking back to my car from the back of the dealer after looking at the Tundra when a guy stopped me. It went like this:

Toyota: "Can I help you find anything?"

Me: "Not really, I was just taking a look at the Tundra and..."

Toyota: "How did you like it?"

Me: "Well, I have to say I was a little disappointed."

Toyota: "Why is that?"

Me: "Well, the panel gaps are really quite big, and I can see all the running gear beneath the truck. Oh, and I was promised a center console that can hold hanging files..."

Toyota: "I'm not authorized to talk about the Tundra... I can find someone who is..."

(Toyota guy walks away, I get in my car)

...It happens a lot. I often wonder if there are guys who are trained specifically to defend the truck...

WTF? Now that is absolutely awsome! "I'm not authorized to talk about the Tundra", what a ****ing crock. He's a new car salesman it is his JOB to talk about new cars.

Its outselling the far less popular of the GM twins? Stop the presses!

Hah, briliant! 👍

A vehicle not living up to the images of its advertisements? That's unpossible!

Simpsons reference, awsome. 👍

Well, what you couldn't see in that commercial was rather simple: It was an empty container. Those things are mostly air, so it looks more impressive than it is. they even say it's "6,400 Lbs Dead weight," which was probably measured at the drawbar, and isn't a whole lot in the world of towing.

Believe me, had that been loaded, the truck would be at the bottom of the quarry.

Exactly correct. If put up against the big three's equivilant trucks the Tundra might be last or ahead of the Ram. The GM and Ford still rule the towing/hauling game here.

 

[YSSMAN]

Hey, I know a way so we can find out!

I'm comparing whats going to be the most-common engine options in 4WD Extended Cab, Short-Box models;

1) Ford F150
- 5.4L V8
- Payload: 1710 lbs
- Towing: 9300 lbs

2) Chevrolet Silverado 1500 LTZ
- 5.3L V8
- Payload: 1564 lbs
- Towing: 8600 lbs

3) Dodge Ram 1500
- 5.7L HEMI
- Payload: 1210
- Towing: 8300

4) Toyota Tundra SR5
- 4.7L V8
- Payload: 1510 lbs
- Towing: 7800 lbs

Thats basic stuff there. I'll do the big boys in a moment.

If we bump the options up on the Chevy and the Tundra to the largest engines available in the Half-Ton size, things even out a bit more:

1) Chevrolet Silverado 1500 LTZ
- 6.0L V8
- Payload: 1418 lbs
- Towing: 10,500 lbs

2) Toyota Tundra SR5
- 5.7L V8
- Payload: 1120 lbs
- Towing: 10,300 lbs

 

[JCE]

I knew the Ram was putrid compared to the other two (GM/Ford)--which is why you do not see any Dodge pickup trucks for work trucks around here. The F150 is still king of the work truck segment.

 

[FoolKiller]

I knew the Ram was putrid compared to the other two (GM/Ford)--which is why you do not see any Dodge pickup trucks for work trucks around here. The F150 is still king of the work truck segment.

Living in Kentucky, where Ford builds their heavy vehicles, I regularly see Ford models that even put the F150 to shame, but most average people still use the F150 on a regular basis around here.

Occasionally I see them hauling or towing things I didn't think possible.

It may be regional bias, but I have always thought that I would get a F150 if I decided I needed a work truck.

 

[YSSMAN]

I've always fancied myself a GMC Sierra Denali, but I'm more likely to just buy the Silverado LTZ. Most of the trucks you see around here are Silverados and Sierras, the F150 not much behind. Then again, Rams are pretty common too... But thats Michigan for you...

 

[Joey D]

Even if I worked for Chrysler I don't think I would buy a Ram.

 

[FoolKiller]

Well, I see plenty of Rams around the city, but most of them don't look like they've hauled so much as a pillow. They are nice and shiney though. They tend to have a bag with two golf balls hanging off the trailer hitch and I just shrg and figure they have to compensate somehow.

Ford and Chevy are the main workhorses, judging by scuffs and scratches. I even see plenty of compact trucks running around with farm plates and manure or mulch piled up in the back. And they almost always have mud splattered up the sides.


That reminds me. The true test should be to go out to some of the county fairs and enter the "Truck Tug" competitions. Basically, truck tug of wars. Basically they tie a rope to the back of the two trucks and let them try and pull teh other one for a set amount of time. Afterwards, whoever pulled teh center knot over onto their side of the line wins.

^If ever there was an event that said redneck. But it seems to be popular because nearly every county fair in the state has them. The county I grew up in has a monthly competition. It makes me feel better about rarely going home to visit my parents.

 

[JCE]

I'm not a redneck but I'd love to see that happen.

 

[Jim Prower]

That reminds me. The true test should be to go out to some of the county fairs and enter the "Truck Tug" competitions. Basically, truck tug of wars. Basically they tie a rope to the back of the two trucks and let them try and pull teh other one for a set amount of time. Afterwards, whoever pulled teh center knot over onto their side of the line wins.

That'll break axles and stuff. and modern trucks with TCS and all that? I don't think so.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

That'll break axles and stuff. and modern trucks with TCS and all that? I don't think so.

Not if you attach the ropes at the trailer mounts (but that requires the trucks having them). And I would think the rope would break before a steel axle would.

 

[Prosthetic]

Are we forgetting another big powerful V8 Pickup? I think we should put some Nissan Titan numbers in there too. Maybe it's not as good selling, but sure is one hell of a truck. And I see them as work trucks around here all the time. And I also think it's the best looking, but thats just me.

 

[YSSMAN]

We do tend to forget the Titan, but I think there is a reason why: The Toyota and GM products are brand-new, the Dodge has been significantly updated, and the Ford is the continual stand-by in terms of truck standards. I hated the Titan when it first debuted, but I'd happily take it over a Tundra any day. Its still a powerful truck with a great amount of capability to go with it, but it has already been bested by the Chevrolet/GMC and Tundra. I'm sure that when the new F150 debuts, it will move that bar up even higher...

 

[JCE]

Are we forgetting another big powerful V8 Pickup? I think we should put some Nissan Titan numbers in there too. Maybe it's not as good selling, but sure is one hell of a truck. And I see them as work trucks around here all the time. And I also think it's the best looking, but thats just me.

I'd agree. I sold Nissans when the Titan was first introduced and it was a hell of a truck. I still prefer it over everything else except maybe the F150 Lariat or Saleen/Roush models.

 

[YSSMAN]

...And the King Ranch? That truck is magnificent. Quite honestly, its what made me believe that Ford could build a stellar truck... I had the pleasure of checking out an F250 King Ranch, and I loved it. That has to be one of the coolest trucks ever!

 

[foamy_302]

hell i hate Ford trucks. EXCEPT the Super Dutys and the Saleen/Roush. there just too ugly.
i think most trucks are ugly. Excpet the Dodge but i think it just lacks everywhere else

 

[Slicks]

I think that the Big Three need to gang up on Toyota and start advertising agressively against Toyota in the same way that Toyota has been doing so against them - Even if it is taking the 'low road'. Sales are sales, and if the Big Three need to cooperate to get them back from the Japanese, whether we're talking about subcompacts or the full-size trucks.

 

[JCE]

...And the King Ranch? That truck is magnificent. Quite honestly, its what made me believe that Ford could build a stellar truck... I had the pleasure of checking out an F250 King Ranch, and I loved it. That has to be one of the coolest trucks ever!

I put the King Ranch and Harley Davidson into the Lariat catagory because they started out as Lariats. The superduty lineup wasn't being discussed in this thread so I didn't meantion it. But my ****ing god the new '08 Super Duty trucks are just pure awsomeness. They are my second/third favorite Ford to take on dealer trades next to a Mustang GT or V6 SEL Fusion. They are the quietest vehicles Ford has on the road...and they are diesels. Anyway, I digress.

I think that the Big Three need to gang up on Toyota and start advertising agressively against Toyota in the same way that Toyota has been doing so against them - Even if it is taking the 'low road'. Sales are sales, and if the Big Three need to cooperate to get them back from the Japanese, whether we're talking about subcompacts or the full-size trucks.

+1 Agreed. Hell, even Dodge could partisipate since it does haul more than the Tundra. The thing that gets me is that Toyota is advertising their 6spd automatic transmission as something "truckers" want which is complete bull****. All you're going to do is burn out that 6spd transmission when you start hauling/towing some serious weight. Hasn't there already been a few recalls already on the new Tundra? And one related to the transmission?