Is the WRC a dead horse being flogged?

[somebody]

Does the WRC mean anything any more? What relevance do the cars and the tracks have to the real world? These are a couple of questions I've been asking myself recently after seeing Australia lose a round of this championship for next year. Is it time for a major overhaul of the race format, speciafically the types of terrain the cars compete on? I am not questioning the drivers or teams ability, for they are above and beyond my dreams in skill, yet I still wonder if the off-road racing means much to people in this day and age.

For my part, I believe all the rounds should be tarmac events, like the Targa events that are quickly gaining in popularity. In no way do I mean that the rally cars should become pure-bred track machines, in fact I like the way these cars look and drive as they are now. However, I don't see how driving these cars through mud, gravel, dust, and snow relates to ordinary driving - though there are plenty of people who do have to drive on these surfaces regularly.

Would a change to all-tarmac events detract from the sport? Is the spectacle of cars flying at unbelievable speeds through forrests something we need to keep, or can suitable roads be found to replace these events?

Comments anybody?

 

[Scaff]

I have to say that a change to all tarmac events would be a huge turn off for me, the main appeal of the WRC (and rally events at all levels) is the variety of terrain and conditions that are covered.

The demands that it places on the driver, co-driver and team are almost unique in motorsport, combo's that are good on tarmac may struggle on gravel and the opposite is of course true.

Watching Loeb (for example) over the last few seasons you could see the development of someone who has always been fast on tarmac, as they got to grips with snow, ice, gravel and mud. In addition the gravel events place a totally different set of demands on the cars and the set-up, forcing the teams to adapt from one rally to the next to a massive degree.

Locations losing events on the WRC is nothing new and has its pros and cons, Greece lost it round this year as well, but new events will follow and the sport will change. The new regs banning active diffs next year will have a big effect on the cars and drivers.

For me the current biggest problem with the WRC is the lack of teams, but signs are that a few new ones will be joining as of next season, and as someone who watched his first rally aged 5 (31 years ago) a move to tarmac only would be the death of the sport I know and love.

As far as relevance goes, well the WRC and most rally events have had little relevance in terms of the stages for many, many years. That however I don't see as an issue, what its does have is a very strong link to the road cars. Group N cars are basically show-room spec (just mandatory safety & timing kit is added), and for club events most cars are converted road cars, so in that regard rallying has more relevance than most branches of motorsport.


Regards

Scaff

 

[KSaiyu]

Teams are the problem for me, and the dependance on tyre choice can spoil rallies.

 

[King Crockery]

However, I don't see how driving these cars through mud, gravel, dust, and snow relates to ordinary driving - though there are plenty of people who do have to drive on these surfaces regularly.

Well i live very close to countryside, so all of these surfaces are covered.

I could write a very long explanation but scaff covered most of it already.

One thing that I think might increase the repuation of rally, would be to introduce a competetive american driver and car. Currently WRC covers almost all continents when it comes down to drivers, except North America. There is a good potential fanbase for this legendary motorsport series in there.

EDIT: Actually scrap the car, it doesn't matter. Put an American event instead.

 

[Scaff]

Teams are the problem for me, and the dependance on tyre choice can spoil rallies.

Yeah but if we get rid of the teams it would be very boring

All joking aside the WRC does need more teams, but things do look good in that direction.

I can't agree with regard to tyres however, tyre selection and the problems it can cause (or the advantages it can bring) have almost always been a part of the WRC.

Well i live very close to countryside, so all of these surfaces are covered.

I could write a very long explanation but scaff covered most of it already.

One thing that I think might increase the repuation of rally, would be to introduce a competetive american driver and car. Currently WRC covers almost all continents when it comes down to drivers, except North America. There is a good potential fanbase for this legendary motorsport series in there.

EDIT: Actually scrap the car, it doesn't matter. Put an American event instead.

An American event has been tried before, but that was quite a while ago and maybe its time to try again.

In regard to an American driver, well when one is good enough we will see one and I personally don't think it will be that long until we do.

Regards

Scaff

 

[somebody]

What then can help the WRC become better? Obviously they need more cars in the field. How do they get more manufacturers involved, or even keep the ones they have? Maybe a complete revision of the technical requirements is needed to bring cars not yet seen in to the fold.

Another problem I see is spectator viewing. Apart from the super special stages, which are run in tight confines, the rally stages only offer limited viewing areas and spectators only see cars for a very short period of time. Do the events need to be more spectator friendly? Maybe any stage run should be immediately followed by a reverse stage - drive over the same bit of ground in the opposite direction to give spectators double the value.

The reason why I started this thread is because I see the WRC as being in serious trouble within the next few years. No doubt there are plenty of countries willing to hold an event, and there are fans worldwide who love the entire circus, yet I still feel that pretty soon the manufacturers and sponsors will begin to move away unless more is done to get the sport in to a greater number of households around the world. Something needs to be done to hook people's imaginations and hearts.

 

[Scaff]

What then can help the WRC become better? Obviously they need more cars in the field. How do they get more manufacturers involved, or even keep the ones they have? Maybe a complete revision of the technical requirements is needed to bring cars not yet seen in to the fold.

Another problem I see is spectator viewing. Apart from the super special stages, which are run in tight confines, the rally stages only offer limited viewing areas and spectators only see cars for a very short period of time. Do the events need to be more spectator friendly? Maybe any stage run should be immediately followed by a reverse stage - drive over the same bit of ground in the opposite direction to give spectators double the value.

The reason why I started this thread is because I see the WRC as being in serious trouble within the next few years. No doubt there are plenty of countries willing to hold an event, and there are fans worldwide who love the entire circus, yet I still feel that pretty soon the manufacturers and sponsors will begin to move away unless more is done to get the sport in to a greater number of households around the world. Something needs to be done to hook people's imaginations and hearts.

Technical revisions for next season are already in place and do seem to be attracting new teams.

I have to say that as far as spectators go I think the WRC seems to be quite reasonable at present, with quite a few stages designed with good access and viewing in mind, its certainly improved from when I first started watching (too many muddy fields) and safety for spectators has improved beyond all belief.


As far as TV access well here in the UK its about the best its ever been, for the longest time you just could not watch the WRC on TV at all, and as far as the sport being at a low point well its certainly not at its healthiest but it is heading in the right direction and certainly a long way from the lowest it ever got, which was the banning of group B and nearly the sport itself. People were saying the sport was on its way down when Tommi Makinen was winning everything in sight and Mitsubishi were the single most dominant team, things change quickly.

I do have to say however the changes you suggested in the first post would kill off the WRC quicker than anything currently in place or planned, a move to tarmac only would destroy the very heart of it.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

An American event has been tried before, but that was quite a while ago and maybe its time to try again.

Perhaps it would have been better to try when the series was actually shown in the U.S.

In regard to an American driver, well when one is good enough we will see one and I personally don't think it will be that long until we do.

Perhaps recruit one out of the ROC?

 

[Scaff]

Perhaps it would have been better to try when the series was actually shown in the U.S.

Quite right a US event without US TV coverage will do little to boost the sports image in the States, which would need Speed (or someone) to start coverage again.

Perhaps recruit one out of the ROC?

To be rather blunt it would take far more than that, the 'rally' part of the RoC is just not representative of the WRC, I was thinking more of some of the drivers who are currently involved in the SCCA rally series, if a future American WRC driver is going to come from any place that's it, but they would still need to develop skills at a wider range of events first. Perhaps by competing in the JWRC (as Loeb and Sordo did) or the Asia-Pacific (as Atkinson and Burns did), to get experience of the different events that occur in different countries.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

To be rather blunt it would take far more than that, the 'rally' part of the RoC is just not representative of the WRC

I know. I meant as sort of a "talent scout" type thing similar to the Mazda Star series. Not necessarily used alone to pick out future drivers, but more to determine who to push for.

 

[Milliethemutt]

As far as spectators at events go the smaller, more compact rallies of today make it more difficult for people to get to. I used to go to the RAC rally every year when it come up north but now it's based in Wales there is no way I would even consider it. I'd rather get a cheapy flight to a European round of the WRC.

It's mainly local rallies for me now but I think a small RWD class would be a start at bringing more people to the sport. There's only so many FWD cars you need to see understeering round a gravely track in winter. No idea what cars they could use though and that's the problem.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The absence of major teams isn't helping the cause right now. I think rallying is in its darkest days since the introduction of Group A following Henri Toivonen's accident in Corsica 1986.

But the single major problem is the route: a lot of famous (and finamous) stages have been axed from rounds because they're not television-friendly. Remeber Perth's 45-km behemoth, Wellington Dam? It's a few hundred kilometres out of the city and was a brilliant piece of road, but the TV trucks could never make it out there and back in time. As such, rallies with 20 stages (which have also shortened significantly latey; there used to be a time when competitive kilometre equalled liason, but now it's not uncommon for that distance to be half the transport route) are only being run over 10 stages.

I'd ditch the restart rule and kick Gary Connolly off any board that determined anything to do with the rallies, even if it was deciding which bus company would take spectators to stages, the man's bound to screw it up by insisting his ideas are right and then blame someone else when they fail spectacularly and hurt the sport ... can you say "SuperRally"?

 

[Danny]

I lost interest when Makkinen left.

 

[Omnis]

WRC became drool-boring after the new millenium.

 

[Flerbizky]

WRC became drool-boring after the new millenium.

Omnis - You're the most negativest guy hanging around the planet.... And I don't like it...
With that said...

I can't really see what's doable to promote WRC.. I like the dirt / gravel combinations.. Doing all Tarmac would surely take away the "Rally" aspect.. I know "Rally" can be everything, but in this day and age, it's just so closely related to "dirt".... Besides.. I appreciate the "dirt" stages more than the Tarmac....

I suspect Marketing is the issue here.....

 

[Omnis]

Hold on, let's stop thinking that. I LOVE rally and the WRC. The problem is, the way they had it on Speed was just awful. It was just too random and niche for mass appeal. I'm not negative, I'm just honest.

Marketing is OF COURSE the issue. If they integrated a system and built a program around it that made it (more) exciting for the viewers, they'd have something to work with.

 

[somebody]

So to make the WRC more appealling we need...

1- More routes that hold some appeal for die-hard enthusiasts. These would have to be ones that are, or could become, famous. These tend to include routes with water splashes, certain hairpin corners, or jumps.

2- Routes that appeal to the general public. These would tend to be shorter events like the super-specials or routes run twice in succession (forward and reverse) where you get greater viewing for your money. Other forms of motorsport are now running more street circuits than in recent years to bring the racing to the people - somehow the WRC has to find a similar "hook".

3- More manufacturers. Obviously this relates to technical rules and whether or not the maker can forsee a return on investment. This would bring greater competition and, hopefully, greater interest from the public.

4- Greater, or at least different promotion / marketing to gain new fans, while keeping the old fans happy.

Anything else while we're at it?

 

[Omnis]

...and a different way of presenting it to the audience. I think some driver-view cameras with mini-frame shots also on the driver's feet and top half of the driver himself would add more excitement to watching him run the stage. Kind of like how they run Best Motoring and etc.

 

[suzq044]

american event = X-Games? the mcRae roll-over was talked about for a few weeks, was pretty awesome to see in person... rally is here, [in the US], but not as strongly, considering most of the US is .. well.. paved. The Pikes-peak rally is different all-together, but i watch that when it comes on SPEED [channel] - i'd like to see more rallys here.. and i'm sure i'm not the only one.

watching the driver isnt as exciting as you might think btw.. aside from the bumps and jolts [and occasional roll-over] you'd think they were driving on a normal highway. lol

i also think that the reason its not mainstream in the US is because of the law-suits that would prevail on injury. Basically, you have to sign a release before walking onto the parkinglot of an autocross here.. even if you're just an audience member... bottom line, it sucks for motorsports here in the US... at least we have nascar... [btw - i dispise nascar]

 

[KAMKA-Z]

american event = X-Games? the mcRae roll-over was talked about for a few weeks, was pretty awesome to see in person... rally is here, [in the US], but not as strongly, considering most of the US is .. well.. paved. The Pikes-peak rally is different all-together, but i watch that when it comes on SPEED [channel] - i'd like to see more rallys here.. and i'm sure i'm not the only one.

watching the driver isnt as exciting as you might think btw.. aside from the bumps and jolts [and occasional roll-over] you'd think they were driving on a normal highway. lol

i also think that the reason its not mainstream in the US is because of the law-suits that would prevail on injury. Basically, you have to sign a release before walking onto the parkinglot of an autocross here.. even if you're just an audience member... bottom line, it sucks for motorsports here in the US... at least we have nascar... [btw - i dispise nascar]

Rallying in the US has always struggled for it's share in motorsports. The law suits were a big part of why the ProRally program was dropped by the SCCA. That is also why we'll probably not see a WRC event on US soil. Hell, they had to be real secretive about where they were running the road stages for the X-Games rally so as not to draw thousands of spectators.
It's also getting tougher for organizers to find roads to hold rallies on. Land trades hands and laws regarding useage of government lands change too.

I think the WRC needs to open up the rules to allow different powerplants and bodystyles other than sedans and hatchbacks. That would keep things more interesting, and might bring some other manufacturers into the foray. I was initially drawn to rallying by the wide variety of cars competing. 2/3 of the field at a North American rally is now WRXs.
But could they keep it all under control and competitive using the same restrictor?

 

[TheBigMan045]

In regard to the lack of manufactures 💡 how about changing the rules so that the main game is group N it would encourage a heap load of teams into the WRC and make privateers more prolific as it's cheaper to buy a group N car than a current WRC car. All the events in the Asia-Pacific area are run to Grp N rules and they are thriving.
So how about it?

 

[KAMKA-Z]

In regard to the lack of manufactures 💡 how about changing the rules so that the main game is group N it would encourage a heap load of teams into the WRC and make privateers more prolific as it's cheaper to buy a group N car than a current WRC car. All the events in the Asia-Pacific area are run to Grp N rules and they are thriving.
So how about it?

Works just fine for me. Group N cars are plenty fast and exciting.

 

[Milliethemutt]

A friend called me the other day to say he read an article satting Ginetta were looking to make a lightweight car for junior one make rallying. I'll try and get some more info.

 

[Threshold]

One thing I don't agree with is the re-running of stages. Rallying is about getting from point A to point B as fast as you can. So going back to where you just came from doesn't make much sense to me. I believe all the rallies should have an ultimate destination without the need of re-running stages. The rallies should have more of a purpose than just running around in circles.

One other thing I think might create more interest in the sport are the running of urban rallies. Probably not gonna happen, but it would certainly be interesting to see the cars take a crap load of 90 degree turns around landmarks. Maybe have rallies that start in the middle of nowhere, but end up in the city. Like a race to the capital.

Lastly, bring back night rallies!

 

[Scaff]

In regard to the lack of manufactures 💡 how about changing the rules so that the main game is group N it would encourage a heap load of teams into the WRC and make privateers more prolific as it's cheaper to buy a group N car than a current WRC car. All the events in the Asia-Pacific area are run to Grp N rules and they are thriving.
So how about it?

The problem with this is it would turn off a good number of manufacturers and viewers as well, the current cars are seen as the pinnacle of rally car evolution. Running the WRC as a group N class would be the same as saying that F1 is too expensive so lets run it to F3 regulations.

You would end up with a mass exodus of sponsors and with them teams, you then would also have to find a way to scale back the current group N class, otherwise what is currently a feeder series would be the same as the premier class.

Not quite as easy as it sounds.

BTW - Group N is now know as P-WRC, still much the same regs, for a time comparison on the Flynns stage of the Rally Oz '06 the fastest PWRC and A8 (WRC) cars were

P-WRC - Teiskoven (Subaru WRX) - 12'33.7
(A8) WRC - Gronholm (Focus) - 11'07.7

So its around 30 seconds between the two, but as most people, would rather see the cars get faster, rather than slower it would be a step in the wrong direction for most people.

One thing I don't agree with is the re-running of stages. Rallying is about getting from point A to point B as fast as you can. So going back to where you just came from doesn't make much sense to me. I believe all the rallies should have an ultimate destination without the need of re-running stages. The rallies should have more of a purpose than just running around in circles.

I don't understand the major issue with re-running stages, its been done for a good number of years and with very good reason.

Running stages around a central hub and reusing stages allows for a central service park, something that cut down massively on team costs, back before this parts were regularly helicoptered to cars and service crews had to travel with the cars and the resulting costs were very high.

Secondly spectator access is far more difficult if you don't run from a central hub, as it increases the distance between stages, cutting the number of people who will actually go and see a rally.

Anyway most gravel stages are totally different in character the second time through a stage, a hundred odd cars make quite a bit of difference to a gravel stage, not to mention the changes in weather than can occur.

One other thing I think might create more interest in the sport are the running of urban rallies. Probably not gonna happen, but it would certainly be interesting to see the cars take a crap load of 90 degree turns around landmarks. Maybe have rallies that start in the middle of nowhere, but end up in the city. Like a race to the capital.

A number of recent special stages have taken place in more urban areas, with mixed responses, they certainly do bring the action to people in a very direct way, but most roads are just too wide to seriously challenge the drivers and cars. Personally I prefer the idea of purpose built special stages for this, allowing good access and viewing, but in a setting that will still challenge the teams.

Lastly, bring back night rallies!

Now that I agree with 100%, night stages are something I miss a lot.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

I don't understand the major issue with re-running stages, its been done for a good number of years and with very good reason.
Running stages around a central hub and reusing stages allows for a central service park, something that cut down massively on team costs, back before this parts were regularly helicoptered to cars and service crews had to travel with the cars and the resulting costs were very high.
Secondly spectator access is far more difficult if you don't run from a central hub, as it increases the distance between stages, cutting the number of people who will actually go and see a rally.

One could also argue the safety benefits of having a centralised hub. If a driver gets in an accident he can receive madical attention quicker as central locations of rallies are usually near towns, not to mention that centralised hubs create less distance from most race stewards and other personnel simply by design (they are spread out less, and therefore are closer by default).

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

The absence of major teams isn't helping the cause right now. I think rallying is in its darkest days since the introduction of Group A following Henri Toivonen's accident in Corsica 1986.

i totally agree,
at the moment the WRC seems to be going the same way as F1 did when michael was winning everything,loeb is winning almost all the rallys and its starting to become boring and predictible.i miss the good old days with mcrae,burns,tommi and marcus battling it out right to the last stage for the championship.
again i personally lost interest when mcrae left

 

[Milliethemutt]

It's a bit of a hike for you Scaff but Holden isn't to far away from this....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2462830#post2462830

A little bit old school but if you like that sort of thing it's very good. Some stages in Scotland on the Sunday.

 

[Scaff]

It's a bit of a hike for you Scaff but Holden isn't to far away from this....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2462830#post2462830

A little bit old school but if you like that sort of thing it's very good. Some stages in Scotland on the Sunday.

Oh I love the old school, Mk1 and 2 Escort's are a particular favourite of mine, I even have the T-shirt.





Its a bit to far for me this weekend (and I have family priorities as well), but it certainly have it on my to do list.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

i totally agree,
at the moment the WRC seems to be going the same way as F1 did when michael was winning everything,loeb is winning almost all the rallys and its starting to become boring and predictible.i miss the good old days with mcrae,burns,tommi and marcus battling it out right to the last stage for the championship.
again i personally lost interest when mcrae left

The good old days included mostly Makkinen winning everything.