Isle of Man TT

[Punknoodle]

So, second death this year at the Isle of Man TT, makes you wonder in this day and age of Health and Safety how long it can keep going like this. You see safety improvements in every other form of high profile and even low profile Motorsport. Even 1 death or permanent injury per year in Formula 1 would be totally unacceptable these days, yet at this event it seems to be par for the course.

I'm not taking anything away from these guys, they know and accept the risks and everyone loves the spectacle of the race, and I'm all for it continuing, and I know there is only so much you can do for a guy sitting on top of a bike doing over 300kph on country roads littered with danger on both sides of the track, it's just that I'm actually surprised that in this day and age that it's allowed to continue.

RIP Bob Price and Karl Harris.

 

[Bopop4]

Well it would be impossible to reduce the risk to GP levels because of the nature of the track.

It's tradition, if you tried to take away the TT (and other road races like the Ulster or Northwest) there'd be riots.
Motorcycle racing is the most popular thing in Ireland.

I'd go with this thread though.

 

[adamp93]

This is something that will be debated every time this happens, which unfortunately seems to be every year. The level of safety around the track can only be so good, and it improves year on year. However the bikes get faster every year as well and Bruce Anstey has set the lap record at 132mph now which is frightening to think of on public roads. Maybe a partial solution would be to make it a bit more elite. Some of the races have over 70 bikes out there and the last thing the front runners need on the last lap while fighting for the win is back markers. If it was limited to the top 20 obviously this would help as less bikes means less accidents, but the quicker guys would have warmer tyres and hopefully more grip and no crashes at all in an ideal world. I can't see anything changing in the near future though.

 

[JulesJackson]

If big names attended the sport, then it would attract big time sponsors. Leave it the way it is.

 

[Bopop4]

Some of the races have over 70 bikes out there and the last thing the front runners need on the last lap while fighting for the win is back markers. If it was limited to the top 20 obviously this would help as less bikes means less accidents, but the quicker guys would have warmer tyres and hopefully more grip and no crashes at all in an ideal world. I can't see anything changing in the near future though.

The longest race is 6 laps, not a whole lot of people actually get lapped, and if they do, then it's only once.

More grip would also mean higher speeds, and that's the last thing they need.

If big names attended the sport, then it would attract big time sponsors. Leave it the way it is.

The TT is one of the biggest events in the Isles, road racing makes front page news.
It already has the big names and sponsors.

 

[JulesJackson]

The longest race is 6 laps, not a whole lot of people actually get lapped, and if they do, then it's only once.

More grip would also mean higher speeds, and that's the last thing they need.



The TT is one of the biggest events in the Isles, road racing makes front page news.
It already has the big names and sponsors.

True but I mean like getting moto gp guys to actually compete in it. Would be pretty cool to see Rossi attack the isle.

 

[doblocruiser]

I think Rossi won't be that stupid to take that kind of risks!

 

[Carbonox]

True but I mean like getting moto gp guys to actually compete in it. Would be pretty cool to see Rossi attack the isle.

They're not that dumb to commit suicide in the middle of a great career.

 

[adamp93]

The longest race is 6 laps, not a whole lot of people actually get lapped, and if they do, then it's only once.

More grip would also mean higher speeds, and that's the last thing they need.

You'd rather they didn't get lapped at all to avoid the problem altogether. The point I was making is that the faster guys rarely crash, and if they do it's a short circuit style crash, such as William Dunlop had in the senior. What you don't want is someone losing control at 170mph+ because then you will be lucky to survive, like Guy Martin was in 2010.

 

[ukfan758]

I am really surprised that this event has not been banned, as someone dies every year with absolutely no safety improvements added (track safety there is crap to begin with there). Why don't they at least use tire barriers and debris fences along the entire track, so that drivers are not catapulting into a stone wall or spectators getting hit or drivers flying off the track. (I don't care how much it costs, if it saves a life, it does not matter the cost).

 

[JulesJackson]

They're not that dumb to commit suicide in the middle of a great career.

If someone is against the isle of man, they simply do not like Motorsports. It embodied what Motorsport is all about, the speed, the danger, the excitement. Hermain Tilke would love to have bland fans.

 

[Carbonox]

If someone is against the isle of man, they simply do not like Motorsports. It embodied what Motorsport is all about, the speed, the danger, the excitement. Hermain Tilke would love to have bland fans.

So do you enjoy the fact that in the last few years, along with the Isle of Man, also IndyCar, MotoGP and Le Mans have proved that they're still potentially fatally dangerous?

 

[Bopop4]

Why don't they at least use tire barriers and debris fences along the entire track, so that drivers are not catapulting into a stone wall or spectators getting hit or drivers flying off the track. (I don't care how much it costs, if it saves a life, it does not matter the cost).

I take it you've never seen the course.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

TBH i think it's the 4 stroke bikes that are the problem here.A flighty little 2 stroke would fly around those bends very quickly, easily and without any problems.But you can't rely on old 2 strokes anymore.We need new 2 strokes back on the roads/tracks.Sorry but i think that is the truth.People are getting killed because of greenpeace and all the rest of them.

 

[TheCracker]

TBH i think it's the 4 stroke bikes that are the problem here.A flighty little 2 stroke would fly around those bends very quickly, easily and without any problems.But you can't rely on old 2 strokes anymore.We need new 2 strokes back on the roads/tracks.Sorry but i think that is the truth.People are getting killed because of greenpeace and all the rest of them.

The TT is for road bikes or road-based bikes. Unless major manufacturers decide to start making 1000cc road bikes, we're not going to see them at the TT. People are getting killed at the Isle of Man TT because of the nature of running a race around 38 miles of narrow public roads. They've also been dying there for over 100 years now. It's not something new that needs stomping out. Riders wouldn't be interested in it if it was suddenly made much safer.

 

[Bopop4]

TBH i think it's the 4 stroke bikes that are the problem here.A flighty little 2 stroke would fly around those bends very quickly, easily and without any problems.But you can't rely on old 2 strokes anymore.We need new 2 strokes back on the roads/tracks.Sorry but i think that is the truth.People are getting killed because of greenpeace and all the rest of them.

I don't think that you understand how racing works.

If they corner faster then they'll hit the wall harder.
2 strokes are also much harder to control.

Oh, and seizing.

 

[JulesJackson]

So do you enjoy the fact that in the last few years, along with the Isle of Man, also IndyCar, MotoGP and Le Mans have proved that they're still potentially fatally dangerous?

That's kind of a sick thing to say. But I certainly would love to add run offs on ever track and add chicanes on every track to slow the cars down, Tilke is what's best for business. Not!! The guy is killing motorsports. He murdered Hockenheimring but your probably going to think the new Hockenheimring is better than the old one. The Isle of Man is the essence of Motorsports in its purest forum. Just leave it the way it is.

 

[Carbonox]

That's kind of a sick thing to say. But I certainly would love to add run offs on ever track and add chicanes on every track to slow the cars down, Tilke is what's best for business. Not!! The guy is killing motorsports. He murdered Hockenheimring but your probably going to think the new Hockenheimring is better than the old one. The Isle of Man is the essence of Motorsports in its purest forum. Just leave it the way it is.

What I'm trying to get at here is that you can enjoy the TT as much as you want, but don't ever claim I'm not a true motorsports fan because I can't find enjoyment from a yearly butchering show.

And once again, don't expect MotoGP riders to show up, at least until they're retired from that series, they understandably won't want to take the chance of getting killed in the midst of a great career. The risk obviously exists in MotoGP as well, but at least over there the fault's not in those tracks, but merely in the fact a rider is rendered helpless if they fall over on the racing line.

 

[ukfan758]

I take it you've never seen the course.

I don't see anything protecting the crowd here...

Or protective walls here, SO IT IS YOU THAT HAS NOT SEEN THE ENTIRE TRACK SR. There is some places that has protection for fans and safer walls, I said they need tire barriers and fencing around the ENTIRE TRACK.

 

[Bopop4]

I don't see anything protecting the crowd here...

Or protective walls here, SO IT IS YOU THAT HAS NOT SEEN THE ENTIRE TRACK SR. There is some places that has protection for fans and safer walls, I said they need tire barriers and fencing around the ENTIRE TRACK.

I don't think that you understand how racing works.

I also take it that you don't know how much runoff space a motorcycle actually needs.

To make the course safe, the runoff area on one side would be several times wider than the track itself.

Bikes can also go over 50 foot high sound barriers put in a spot where it was unthinkable for a bike to get to.

What's going to happen when someone loses the front going through Union Mills or coming over the mountain.
You'd need a massive amount of runoff that you usually only find at a GP track.

Being able to lie down on the grass and have a bike scream by at 200mph with the front wheel in the air 2 feet from you is one of the best parts of road racing. That isn't changing.


Oh, and William? Dunlop coming off the mountain, and what looks like Glen Helen.

 

[ukfan758]

I also take it that you don't know how much runoff space a motorcycle actually needs.

To make the course safe, the runoff area on one side would be several times wider than the track itself.

Bikes can also go over 50 foot high sound barriers put in a spot where it was unthinkable for a bike to get to.

What's going to happen when someone loses the front going through Union Mills or coming over the mountain.
You'd need a massive amount of runoff that you usually only find at a GP track.

Being able to lie down on the grass and have a bike scream by at 200mph with the front wheel in the air 2 feet from you is one of the best parts of road racing. That isn't changing.


Oh, and William? Dunlop coming off the mountain, and what looks like Glen Helen.

I was not talking about run off, I was talking about how they need to install tire barriers or other soft walls and debris fences. Being on the grass 2 feet away from the bikes may be exciting but it is far too dangerous, remember this?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/isle-man-tt-crash-eleven-1938709

Thankfully no one died as a result of the incident but many were injured. If there was a debris fence or catch fence there, less people would have likely been injured. That is the exact reason why nearly all major racing circuits in the world have debris fences, to prevent cars, bikes, or massive debris from flying into the crowd. Some other incidents of incidents similar to this: 1955 24hrs of Le Mans disaster, Emilio Materassi and 27 spectators killed after his car crashed into the stands in the 1928 Italian GP, Count Wolfgang Von Trips and 14 spectators killed after his and Jim Clark's car collided in 1961 Italian GP. If there was catch fences and proper barriers at these tracks, a lot less people would have been injured or killed. Back then however, there was no safety whatsoever and they did not know better until the late 60s, the Isle of Man tt organizers however, have not implemented these things even though nearly everyone else has.

Now imagine if this crash happened and there was no catch fence:



Thankfully only 30 people were injured from the horrifying crash (mainly small cuts and bruises with only a few with more severe injuries) (which is still bad) , if there was no fence, a lot of people would have been severely injured or killed. Like I said earlier, being 2 feet away from the track with bikes zooming by with no obstructions may be exciting, but it is FAR to dangerous, I would rather be 2 feet away behind a fence seeing the bikes zooming by. Would your opinion change if a family member of yours was injured or killed from a crash involving a car or bike flying into the stands? I hope it would.

 

[Bopop4]

...

Again, there isn't enough room.

2 feet of wall will hardly do anything against a 350lb object going 150mph. What it would do is take away all the road space. And you can't add it onto the outside because there's stone walls and houses there.

Also, it's almost 40 miles of course, I can't see them being able to put up catch fences high enough around the whole track. At one of our tracks up here, a bike has gone over a wall, and landed on the top of someone's canopy.

At somewhere like Shannonville, we just keep an eye out at pit wall ready to duck if someone highsides the bike over the wall. It's damn cool to have someone go by on the rear wheel close enough that you can reach out and touch them.

 

[ukfan758]

Again, there isn't enough room.

2 feet of wall will hardly do anything against a 350lb object going 150mph. What it would do is take away all the road space. And you can't add it onto the outside because there's stone walls and houses there.

Also, it's almost 40 miles of course, I can't see them being able to put up catch fences high enough around the whole track. At one of our tracks up here, a bike has gone over a wall, and landed on the top of someone's canopy.

At somewhere like Shannonville, we just keep an eye out at pit wall ready to duck if someone highsides the bike over the wall. It's damn cool to have someone go by on the rear wheel close enough that you can reach out and touch them.

Interesting how you say my argument is 🤬, completely disregard my arguments of the danger of not having safe walls and fencing. Time for me to play the game. Then they can demolish the stone walls and the front gardens in front of the houses (lots of them are getting paved over in the UK anyway http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/jul/18/front-gardens-paved-parking-spaces ). The front part of my front lawn is getting destroyed so they can add an extra lane and I don't care really. Then the track itself is unaffected and would be safer than before. You say 2 feet of wall cant do anything to a 350lb bike, oh hell yes it can, if tire barriers can stop 1000 lb + cars, then it can stop a bike, case closed there.... Now for the 40 miles of course argument, well too mad then, if it saves lives, it's worth doing no matter the cost.

 

[ukfan758]

That's kind of a sick thing to say. But I certainly would love to add run offs on ever track and add chicanes on every track to slow the cars down, Tilke is what's best for business. Not!! The guy is killing motorsports. He murdered Hockenheimring but your probably going to think the new Hockenheimring is better than the old one. The Isle of Man is the essence of Motorsports in its purest forum. Just leave it the way it is.

I don't mind the miles of runoff at his tracks, if only they could do that to tracks like Imola, Monza, Hockingheim ring and then not have to have chicanes. The chicanes and hairpin turns though are outrageous that he makes.

 

[W3H5]

TBH i think it's the 4 stroke bikes that are the problem here.A flighty little 2 stroke would fly around those bends very quickly, easily and without any problems.But you can't rely on old 2 strokes anymore.We need new 2 strokes back on the roads/tracks.Sorry but i think that is the truth.People are getting killed because of greenpeace and all the rest of them.

TBH, I think you might not be sure what you are talking about.

A little two stroke, as you mention, might be 'flighty' around the track but that makes very much no difference with concerns to crashing a bike. If you go into a wall it doesn't matter if you're riding an inline 4 1000 or a 250 2 stroke.

I love two strokes, personally, because power to weight they outclass a lot of other vehicles. But the point you are missing is that it would make no difference to possitive safety. There, I've said it twice now. Ever had a 2 stroke engine seize up on you at 80mph? No? I have. It isn't safe when your rear locks out of the blue and turns you into a wall or post, and that is the kind of thing that is more likely to happen with a 2 stroke than a 4.

The TT is dangerous, that's a fact. But so is anything at high speed and on the limit of pilot and machine.

 

[Bopop4]

Rant

It's a motorcycle street circuit, it's not going be safe no matter what you do.
Watch an onboard lap and look at the first 20 seconds, in space you'd have to move houses and lightpoles to make it safe(r).

An extra paved lane is hardly going to make a difference to the rider, you need a ton of runoff space when going the speeds those guys do. A driver has a protective shell around him, the rider has next to nothing.

Ignoring cost, there wouldn't be enough time to make the proper safety changes. Unless you don't mind all the houses being moved back a few hundred feet.

A little two stroke, as you mention, might be 'flighty' around the track but that makes very much no difference with concerns to crashing a bike.

Well on a GP circuit they crash a whole lot better.

Ever had a 2 stroke engine seize up on you at 80mph?

120mph, I win.

 

[W3H5]

120mph, I win.

You win.

I kept the piston though. It looked cool with a hole melted into the top of it.

 

[Bopop4]

You win.

I kept the piston though. It looked cool with a hole melted into the top of it.

One of those things that people are better off not winning.

Always keep your offerings to the gods of speed.

 

[TheCracker]

Interesting how you say my argument is 🤬, completely disregard my arguments of the danger of not having safe walls and fencing. Time for me to play the game. Then they can demolish the stone walls and the front gardens in front of the houses (lots of them are getting paved over in the UK anyway http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/jul/18/front-gardens-paved-parking-spaces ). The front part of my front lawn is getting destroyed so they can add an extra lane and I don't care really. Then the track itself is unaffected and would be safer than before. You say 2 feet of wall cant do anything to a 350lb bike, oh hell yes it can, if tire barriers can stop 1000 lb + cars, then it can stop a bike, case closed there.... Now for the 40 miles of course argument, well too mad then, if it saves lives, it's worth doing no matter the cost.

The TT course isn't a circuit, its a public road closed for a few weeks a year (even then it's open to the public to go about their daily business between the actual races). The cost of the alterations you mention would run to the billions. The island doesn't make enough money from the events to justify those costs. It will never happen. The island is also self-governing, so no one can force them to make it any safer if the organisers, riders or general population don't want those changes.

 

[ukfan758]

.

Fine, I SURRENDER, I NOW SUPPORT THE DEATHTRAP TRACK AT ITS CURRENT STATE, I LOVE DANGER! ARE YOU HAPPY NOW SR? HERE IS YOUR COOKIE. I just love the stonewalls and no fencing around the track, I can't believe that I had such a RADICAL thought yesterday and the day before about making the track safe, that's just wrong, in fact, it's taboo. *gasp*, the track is TOO SAFE AT ITS CURRENT STATE. Lets allow the fans to stand on the track while bikes are going by, put grease spots on the track, tire puncture spikes on the track, put spikes on the walls and sides of the track, but that may be TOO SAFE AS WELL.

The TT course isn't a circuit, its a public road closed for a few weeks a year (even then it's open to the public to go about their daily business between the actual races). The cost of the alterations you mention would run to the billions. The island doesn't make enough money from the events to justify those costs. It will never happen. The island is also self-governing, so no one can force them to make it any safer if the organisers, riders or general population don't want those changes.

I respectfully agree with your post