It's not fun anymore

  • Thread starter Nerra
  • 118 comments
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For the record ......

I have a great deal of time in playing all GTs.
I use a G25 and have always used Pro physics.
I think the new physics are a big improvement over Prologue.
The time trial is very challenging and as a result very fun.
I greatly enjoy driving the Z's with the new physics.
I also realize that more practice and finese will lower my lap times.

That being said ......

It leaves me frustrated.
I feel it could be tweeked just a bit to make it better, for a larger segment of the market (and I don't mean for those who prefer Standard physics).
IMO, it's not the perfect world many are making it out to be.

I have to ask you to be honest and admit that you've all used "Restart" more in this Time Trial than you ever have in your life ?
 
Seems pretty good to me, actually it really reminds me of pc sims like rfactor. And the tuned car is very easy to control and drift, i really don't understand how anyone who has spent more than 30mins with this game is having problems with the cars oversteer.

My guess is most of the people in here complaining about the physics haven't been able to put in a very fast time.
 
Nerra
I'm a big fan of GT don't get me wrong but I'm not finding the demo much fun anymore.
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Having tracked a 350z and now racing Caterhams I can say with confidence that this game isn't like the real thing. Yes, it teaches you about good smooth lines and teaches you about throttle control but apart from that its just not the same.
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I know it's not the same, and without feeling lateral G's, etc, how could it be?
The great thing about driving a good car is being able to take it to the limit and sometimes just over that limit and then reeling it back in again as you catch your breath. If real cars were like this demo, every race or track day would be a complete wreck.
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Not at all. Actually if you would take a second and look at the leaderboards, it's actually MORE competitive than real life racing, the times are all MUCH closer together. For example, take a look at the worldwide top 500 thread, and you'll see less difference in TOTAL time, between two laps, for 500 drivers, than you will in ANY regular GT-style single race from qualifying with one lap.
And then once you start spinning its just a joke. Its like some kind of comedy act the way the car spins and slides. I often think its a shame that there is no grass on the last straight as I think you could probably gain a second by hitting the grass and sliding over the finish.
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I haven't driven a 370, but I can tell you a 350 sure likes to snap back and forth if you're unfamiliar with it.
This is not a good advertisement for GT or Nissan for that matter. Apart form the 1% of people that have managed to put in a good lap the others are left frustrated and any newbie who's never played the GT games will just think its a load of tosh.
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I do agree that it's not good for new players, and it is listed as a demo, so maybe they should have included standard physics, and fully adjustable assists, just with seperate rankings, and standard physics, of course, not counting for the Academy.
I don't mind if something is challenging if its close to the real thing but this is neither realistic nor is it fun. I'm not surprised that Lucas never really answered the big question, "is the game anything like the real thing".
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It is realistic, it's just not perfect.
First you have our universes physics, which are incredibly complex, that they are trying to sort out, and then you have the lack of on-sit vision, g forces, and actual feedback.
So, no, it's not the same as driving around a track, but as far as video games go, this is pretty much the bees knees.
 
TrievelA7X
and it is listed as a demo, so maybe they should have included standard physics, and fully adjustable assists, just with seperate rankings, and standard physics, of course, not counting for the Academy.
It is realistic, it's just not perfect.
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I agree, would have been good to have two modes within this demo, testdrive/demo mode with full assist, tyre and physics options and the actual limited option time trial/GT academy.
 
People just need to treat GT5: demo as they were driving it with a wheel without FFB. LFS and Forza FFB tell you when you are steping over the limit. Yes i know it is possible drive with only eyes and ears but my problem is that i am so used to get my feedback from the wheel as i have played those other games while waiting for GT5.
 
Nerra
Good post. I think thats the problem, you have no sense of speed or it feels too slow. I know its probably accurate because when you stick a video camera in a race car it always looks so much slower when you watch it back compared to actually being in the car.

Maybe thats why it doesn't feel fun, because it feels slow. When I play the Grid time trial demo it just feels like you are flying (which is fun).

My times are low 38's by the way, not amazing but I can get round.
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I agree with this, that's how I felt as well when playing the demo. You think you've slowed down enough for a corner but when you look at the speedometer you realize there's no way you can take that corner at that speed. The problem is the lack of G forces on your body, which is an important indicator of your car's speed in real life. A game can have fantastic visual feedback and FFB on a wheel, you're still not going to get the right sense of speed.

So that's just something you'll have to get used to. After a while you should get a good idea of how to interpret the visual clues of how fast you're going. Maybe that'll help you get some fun out of the demo.
 
Raitziger
People just need to treat GT5: demo as they were driving it with a wheel without FFB. LFS and Forza FFB tell you when you are steping over the limit. Yes i know it is possible drive with only eyes and ears but my problem is that i am so used to get my feedback from the wheel as i have played those other games while waiting for GT5.
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Doesn't forza also assist you when you pass the limit with steering assists (that can't be shut off on any wheel)?
 
I thought Forza only had steering assists with the controller. It's with the wheel too? Has that actually been proven or just assumptions? I didn't think it was actually as bad as that, sheesh.
 
I'm with you, Nerra. New physics is very good but only until you start to slide. There are few problems:

1. Oversteer, totally overdone and not controllable at all, maybe little in first 15 degrees, but then it goes mad no matter what you do. Fully countersteer? Nothing, you are still spinning like a crazy. Easy on the gas or fully release? Not, you started spinning so enjoy it now. Do both? Then you slide into another side immediatelly. And there is nothing between it. 80's Porsche Turbos used to behave like this, but not any modern FR car.

2. Standard road tyres more snappy and less predictive than racing slicks. It's 180° reversal to reality. Standard tyres should have less grip, but very progressive behaviour. Car with racing slicks is like glued to the road, but when it kicks out, then it's very fast.

3. No good feedback in steering wheel. When sliding in GT4 on N-tyres, wheel is informing you what's with your car before you see it on the screen, you immediately know when to start countersteer and when to quickly shock steering wheel into another side, kill second harmonic swing and calm the snapback the correct way. In TT demo it's totally absent.

If we should call this a simulation, those problems should be cured.
 
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amar212
Yes it does, it has been named as "steering buffer".
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I did not notice this (game must have fooled me that i can actually drive) Can someboby post a link where this is explained?

Edit picked this from forza forum: "FM3 uses extremely buffered steering inputs when using the controller. You can slam full lock for turns and for correcting oversteer. While the game steers to the correct steering angle at the correct turn in rate, so the cars are very drivable with the controller, almost like a semi auto steer. Also with the controller the tires will never exceed their maximum grip angle, and there is a speed sensitive steering lock. With the controller I feel disconnected from the car because of this steering buffer setup.

With the wheel the steering buffer is gone and you can exceed the maximum grip angle of the tires. The speed sensitive steering lock is still there"
Speed sensitive steering lock is not really bad problem with forza as some real cars use it also but i would not put it to every car as it is not realistic.
 
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Here is a video showing it with both the MS wheel and Turbo S wheel, you can see how erraric the steering movements get and how it is constantly changing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkxSZoHbYY

Comments by the video author explains it some more


Also how come the wheel on screen never passes 90 degrees either way? Is that just a limitation of the on screen display?
 
R1600Turbo
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👍
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Well, there goes the last thing you praised the demo for. Since you admited the physics are not real, then how are you going to defend the "real driving simulator". I guess you don't need realistic car behaviour to experience the driving either.
So let's sum it up, you don't need:
Graphics
Sound
Physics
Skidmarks
Particles
The game may not have those made well, but it's still the greatest, right?
I really thought this forum had some thought behind the posts, not pure fanboish talk.
 
RedBaron...you're the man. Thankyou. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed the stupidly unrealistic oversteer. "Real Driving Simulator" isn't quite there yet.
 
Jay
Here is a video showing it with both the MS wheel and Turbo S wheel, you can see how erraric the steering movements get and how it is constantly changing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkxSZoHbYY

Comments by the video author explains it some more


Also how come the wheel on screen never passes 90 degrees either way? Is that just a limitation of the on screen display?
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Jesus, I always felt Forza 3 had messed up aids but that is just insane. At least now I know why the driving felt so messed up =/
 
Bekimche
RedBaron...you're the man. Thankyou. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed the stupidly unrealistic oversteer. "Real Driving Simulator" isn't quite there yet.
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I've already posted about this before in response to similar comments about the oversteer.

I think that part of the problem is that people are late to detect the rear of the car stepping out, and part of this is because you don't have the physical clues you have in a real car to tell you this (bum-on-seat feel, G's etc) and partly because the wheel doesn't offer much in the way to tell you that the car is about to swap ends.

I'm not saying people are "late to detect the oversteer" in the sense that they are only noticing it when the car is half way around. You can notice it what feels to be very early, but if you can't correct it then you haven't spotted it early enough.

With practice I have come to notice the oversteer visually manifest as the car angle looking ever so slightly wrong relative to the direction of travel and the road; combine that with a sense of how close you are to oversteering based on the amount of power you are trying to transmit and the steering angle and you will be able to predict and catch a lot of potential disasters quite easily by simple bleeding off the throttle and making a minor adjustment on the wheel.

I hear and understand some complaints about the car snapping back and forth if you catch a slide late, sometimes 3-4 times before eventually binning itself, but this can be avoided. Whether it is right for the car to do this is another discussion.
 
I mean no offense to you DrTrouserPlank but I think these are just excuses for bad physics. But you are not the only one. You're saying that if you can't correct it, you haven't spotted it early enough. It's not being too late. I experimented for a long, long time, I expected the oversteer because I was testing it. I usually catch the slides and bring it back to centre. I can even still drift in LFS with no FFB at all. Yeah its harder but still doable. What bothers me is, you can't drift the car through a corner with wheel spin and adjusting your wheel inputs. For example lets say its a right turn, You're countersteering to the left as your sideways, the wheels are spinning fine but you want more angle in the drift, you would normally slightly move the wheel to the right then quickly back to the left again, this is all common in drifting "wheel control* if you will. This is pretty much impossible and once you have wheel spin it's stupidly hard and unrealistic to control it through the corner. It just wants to spin, there's no control.

I've found ways that allows you to drift but it's very unrealistic and pathetic. I tried a power-over move, usually I would spin out, but after a while, I took the corner with a violent turn of the wheel and about 2/10th of throttle, kept it at about 2/10 throttle all the way through the corner and just at the exit I floored it but only for a second which made the back end kick even more but was very manageable, straightened up and floored it again. This was so far from reality though. I find that it's only manageable only if you have wheelspin before the corner, you can guide it through. If you come into the corner with lift off, then try and guide the car through with throttle, you will most likely spin out. Drives me crazy. Physics have failed.
 
Bekimche
example lets say its a right turn, You're countersteering to the left as your sideways, the wheels are spinning fine but you want more angle in the drift, you would normally slightly move the wheel to the right then quickly back to the left again, this is all common in drifting "wheel control* if you will.
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If the car is underpowered for the drift then you attempt you do this, it's good for extending drifts to link another corner or get more angle but if you have enough power you just apply more throttle to achieve more angle.

Any car which requires full throttle the whole time to hold a drift is going to be a little difficult as you need to manipulate your steering and drifting lines (through the steering) all the time to keep it going, easy for the car to snap out of it or go around this way. A well set up drift car is mostly controlled with throttle after the drift is initiated and settled (correctly countersteered), you want more angle you apply throttle and countersteer to match, less angle you do the opposite.

If you take notice of the video in the other thread he did the wheel process you explained in atleast one instance to keep the back end out and it keeps trying to come back out of the drift, just doesn't have the power to hold angle at such speeds in this form with these tyres.
 
RedBaron
2. Standard road tyres more snappy and less predictive than racing slicks. It's 180° reversal to reality. Standard tyres should have less grip, but very progressive behaviour. Car with racing slicks is like glued to the road, but when it kicks out, then it's very fast.
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This part, I'm in some agreement with. The grip envelope needs a bit of tweaking yet to bring it a whisker closer to reality. But this has to be done very carefully, because the math of tire dynamics is quite tricky.

The tiny Live For Speed team is extremely talented and have come up with a very nice tire model. However it does have issues here and there, and they keep fiddling with it. The problem is that when they fix something, they end up breaking something else. I don't know if they've released their new tire model yet, but the last one I tried turned your tires to butter if you exceeded their life by as little as one lap. This is the perfect illustration of how difficult it is to tweak something which on the surface seems rather simple.

If Polyphony can manage to polish up the grip envelopes of their many tire models, these issues should all disappear. But frankly, if they can't manage to do a better job, I'm more than happy with what they have now.
 
snoopybg
Well, there goes the last thing you praised the demo for. Since you admited the physics are not real, then how are you going to defend the "real driving simulator". I guess you don't need realistic car behaviour to experience the driving either.
So let's sum it up, you don't need:
Graphics
Sound
Physics
Skidmarks
Particles
The game may not have those made well, but it's still the greatest, right?
I really thought this forum had some thought behind the posts, not pure fanboish talk.
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Dude, when you can run laps faster than me, then you can talk to me like that.

I am no fan boy. I enjoy the game for what it is instead of constantly bickering and bitching like all the *cough* newbs *cough* on here lately. Who gives a crap about skidmarks and particles. As long as the graphics are the same as Prologue, I'm happy. I personally didn't think that the sounds in Prologue were all that bad either. Physics in the demo, IMO, are a step in the right direction.
 
cicohipe
Seems pretty good to me, actually it really reminds me of pc sims like rfactor. And the tuned car is very easy to control and drift, i really don't understand how anyone who has spent more than 30mins with this game is having problems with the cars oversteer.

My guess is most of the people in here complaining about the physics haven't been able to put in a very fast time.
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There is a difference between "complaining" and that of offering an opinion for the sake of discussion and hopefully, getting an improvement to further everyone's entertainment. I am not the "uber-driver" like many here apparently but I manage to be somewhat competitive within my peer group. I have at least been on the board since the demo launched, although I haven't checked it today as of yet. I'm sure that when the full release launches, there will be some additional adjustments (within the Pro physics mode) that will minimize the one thing that many have mentioned. To me, the car drives like it has the DIFF locked at 100% and I'd love to be able to back it down a notch simply to better suit my driving style.

Many of the egotistical comments are plain insulting to many avid fans of the genre who have a legitimate stake in maintaining their beloved past time. As I have said before, I love the new physics and I will continue to adapt and improve, but I won't make a blanket statetment that they are perfect just as they are :)
 
snoopybg
OMG so much fanboism in one place... A guy who really races on track tells you it's just not right but all you can come up with is standard irrelevant answers. Even if gt5 cars had square wheels you'd still be ok with it, wouldn't you?
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Considering you're in Bulgaria I'll take it you drive Pinto's on your race track so if you'll excuse us while we disregard your opinions.

I drive a car that is close to the Z's driving dynamics, a Genesis Coupe 3.8, and I must say this game is fairly close to the real thing. Of course it will never be due to the hands on aspect you do not experience with GT5D.

However I was astonished to see how all 4 corners react properly to weight transfers in GT5D. I was pleasantly surprised to see it punished you for our old habbits in GT5P and GT4.

I.E.: Coming in way too hot into a corner, full on brakes and actually making the turn. Try this in GT5D and you'll be on thin ice when you'll left off the brakes, which is EXACTLY how it is in real life.

All in all, this demo is not for beginners or people that feel they should punch in world records after 5 warm up laps. It is for people who can enjoy shaving off time lap after lap while continueously pushing the limits of the car and, yes, loosing it from time to time.

That is the nature of Time Attack.
 
RedBaron
I'm with you, Nerra. New physics is very good but only until you start to slide. There are few problems:

1. Oversteer, totally overdone and not controllable at all, maybe little in first 15 degrees, but then it goes mad no matter what you do. Fully countersteer? Nothing, you are still spinning like a crazy. Easy on the gas or fully release? Not, you started spinning so enjoy it now. Do both? Then you slide into another side immediatelly. And there is nothing between it. 80's Porsche Turbos used to behave like this, but not any modern FR car.

2. Standard road tyres more snappy and less predictive than racing slicks. It's 180° reversal to reality. Standard tyres should have less grip, but very progressive behaviour. Car with racing slicks is like glued to the road, but when it kicks out, then it's very fast.

3. No good feedback in steering wheel. When sliding in GT4 on N-tyres, wheel is informing you what's with your car before you see it on the screen, you immediately know when to start countersteer and when to quickly shock steering wheel into another side, kill second harmonic swing and calm the snapback the correct way. In TT demo it's totally absent.

If we should call this a simulation, those problems should be cured.
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1. Standard road cars have somewhat soft suspensions and are not designed in any way for drifting applications. Of course we have all seen videos on car shows showcasing the Z drifting, but these were done at low speeds for TV spots. You are experiencing slides in GT5D at the limits of the car's cornering ability, the reaction of the chassis will be MUCH faster, moreso in a street car with soft dampening, it will snap as the weight takes too much time to transfer to the tires to provide traction to snap it back into shape.

2. I don't think you have enough seat time with GT5D. I cannot catch any slides higher than 15 degrees on the Z tuned and it's all because of the tires. When going into a small slide, you will feel the tires bouncing trying to keep traction and then SNAP, you're off into the grass. That's the nature of a slick tire.

3. Agreed.
 
^^^ I've had some pretty neat power slides in the tuned car while pushing it fairly hard. Once it starts I know my lap is ruined, so I just try and carry the slide as long as I can. Has made for some interesting replays. :D
 
I'd like to reiterate how important sound is for feedback. I've tried GT5TT with TV sound and with my sound system running, and the nuance of the tyre sound is lost if you are using TV speakers tuned just for speech frequency range. Good sound definitely helps.

There have always been 2 different camps for FFB, especially in the PC simming world: One camp just wants pure steering rack forces through the wheel. The other camp wants to mix in some additional feedback information through the wheel to make up for no G-Forces. Obviously the less information coming through the wheel, the more you have to make up for it with sound cues.

iRacing actually has the best sound cues I've heard so far. The way the tyre noise changes as you approach the limits of grip is subtle and superb. I think GT5TT is still some way off from that, it's all a bit too "generic tyre noise" as soon as the tyres are under pressure all the way to the very edge of grip, rather than subtly changing all the time to match the current grip levels.
 
I don't ever expect to find a completely accurate or perfect sim, there are just too many variables, and the relationship of them to us is an opinion of the author and so inherently imperfect. However, as long as someone wants to try, then I'll be there to take the game for a spin.

I would love to be able to understand the strong objections and endorsements that people have towards different aspects of the game, but sometimes there just seems to be so much information lacking with both (speed, point of braking, degree of entry and exit, moment of acceleration and angle of car at the time, etc), that there is not really much to go on. A video of the lap(s) in GT, with commentary and then the video of film save would be a great tool.

I sincerely hope that someone will do this, because it is a great way to have an open and frank discussion with multiple analyses. Not even that hard these days, seeing as how practically everything we buy has a built in cam with video feature, from computers to cell phones to cheap digicams.

I am not trying to be menacing with anyone, but I would like to see this go somewhere.
 

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