It's that time again... (Engine thread #3)

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High-Test

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So here's the question:

What is the single most innovative or important Internal combustion engine ever? I know you're all going to say "The first one", but let's think outside of the box. Importance could come from a new head design, or how easy it was to manufacture, or how reliable it was.

What was the most important engine of the 20th/21st Century?


Is it the chrysler Hemi? The VW Flat four? The RB? The lowly Ford four pot from the Model T? Wankel Rotary? Miller cycle? Diesel? Flathead? Hybrid? Something else?


Fire away, folks.:)




I'd have to say the Lowly Four pot that Henry put in the T. Sure, it had a one barrel updraft carb that had to breathe through a long up pipe, and it was extremely restricive and primitive, but come on. It was the first engine to ever be produced in significant numbers. It made decent horsepower for how primitive it is, and even more torque. It's the reason we have a car based culture, cars wouldn't have been as widespread if the T wasn't so cheap. Cars spread like wildfire, and in the first quarter of the 20th century, 20 million of them were chugging along thanks to the T's four cylinder. The motor got more refined in the A, and the "Flathead" of 1932 carried on the sidevalve design.


What do you guys think?
 
This is probably the toughest one youve come up with.

As an American, I am compelled to say the V8, but then it becomes a question of period, design, etc.

- Ford Flathead: This is the V8 for the masses, and sparked the love that every American has with the size, sound, and power of the V8. They were cheap to buy and build, and was stuck in damn near everything after it's introduction. The effects of the Flathead were of course Chevrolet's development of the small-block, and it also pushed Dodge forward to producing a V8 as well.

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But, being the barbaric American and die-hard GM guy that I am, once again I have to nominate the Chevrolet Small-Block V8. To my knowlege, the only engine design to last longer than it is of course the VW F4, but the Chevrolet did so much more in it's life cycle.

The same baisic design is still found in all of GM's V8s sold today. Vortecs and LS-series V8s carry on the rich legacy of the 283, 302/305, 327, 350, 427, etc. The engines are very cheap to build and maintain, and alike the Ford Flathead that preceeded it, it also brought the V8 to the masses, in everything from our Bel-Airs to our Impalas.

But the small-block didn't just spin off V8 variants either. Cylinders were chopped off, the block cut in half, etc essentially creating an entire line of V6 and atlest one I4 engine over the past 50 years. The last of the 350-derrived V6s is on it's way out, a 4.3L unit found in the Silverado, one of which dates back to the late 1970's.

On the racing side of things, the small-block has powered Corvettes, Monte Carlos, Luminas, Camaros, etc. to victories in racing events around the world. Cars like the Ultima GTR hold the world record for 0-100-0, powered by a Chevrolet V8, and small start-up car companies such as Marcos and Mosler both use a Chevrolet V8 as well.

On the basis of numbers, lasting design, proven performance, and the ability to evolve with the demands of the world, I nominate the small-block Chevrolet V8 as the most important engine of the past 100 years...
 
Nice point.

Pontiac Chopped the 389 smallblock down the center to make the 194 Slant four, which Mickey Thompson had some success tuning in the 60s.


"Barbaric American" :lol:


Remember, the 302 is in no way related to a 305. The 305 is basically a 350 that isn't bored as much, If I'm not mistaken, while the 302 is the product of a 283 block and heads with a 327 Crank and connecting rods.

I don't know much about the GM fours, was the Iron Duke related to the smallblock?
 
I'm going to say the Ford Flathead V8. It pretty much started the cheap V8 power war--easy to modify and even back then the owners fitted turbochargers and superchargers to them to give them more power. It's important to history in terms of American auto racing as most of the moonshine running cars had these V8's and most of those drivers formed what's called NASCAR.

Gotta love The History Channel for that NASCAR tidbit. :sly:
 
Oh yeah,

Moonshiners would add leaves to the springs of their '40 Fords, while the flatties would have two or three Stromberg 97s so they could outrun the cops, and, more importantly, each other.

The Flathead is downright cool. It looks great, is extremely simple, and while it didn't have much power by 1950's standards, it had gobs of torque. I've seen Blown Flatheads, and even Flatheads with two GMC 4-71 Blowers. The Brazilians made a copy of ARDUN's OHV conversion, and the French were allowed to make a liscensed copy of the block, which they improved the water jackets and flow, and used until the 1980s in Military trucks.

Here's some flathead candy for y'alls entertainment:


ARDUN:
 
As a rotary lover here, I'd have to say the wankle engine. It seems to be the most innovative engine out there. A lot of people rag on the rotary for being unreliable and consume oil quite a bit but if you put it to thinking, the rotary isn't as old as the standard engine and is therefore "new" if you think about it. Yes, it has been thought about since the 16th century but the first rotary engine was basically in 1957 in an NSU motorcyle, and the first internal compression engine was patented by Samuel Brown in 1823. So basically the first ever rotary engine was first used 134 years later. Imagine if the rotary engine had been invented at the same time as the standard internal combustion engine and had an equal amount of R&D. I'd like to see how much improved the rotary engine will get in 134 years...
 
Was there ever any barbarians in America? :lol:. The Wankel rotary is certainly innovative, but it hasn't had much influence in history compared to the Chevy small block, VW 4 pot and many, many more enigne designs. Also you need to think very broadly for a subject like this which is why I'm not giving an answer yet.
 
Id go for the fod model T and that BMW engine that also made the basis design for the BMW F1 engine with around 1500hp
 
It's a hard question. I was torn between the T and the VW flat four, but my primitive side won out.
 
I'd have to go with the trend in this thread, and say the Flathead. Powering everything from tanks to hotrods, it, in essence, sparked the beginnings of the American horsepower race, and influenced Chevrolet (and therefore Mopar) to produce V8's.
 
I disagree.
Just because the Flathead was widely used, appreciated, and had so many advantages, this thread is asking for the most innovative internal combustion engine, not the one that you like the most.
Although the Flathead is probably the most important here, I would have to say the Wankel Rotary. It is just about as important, and in my opinion, a lot more innovative. It was a totally new idea at the time, and it is still used today. It can garner over 500 hp in the space of a 4-cylinder, and it is still used today in one of the most influential cars of all time, the Mazda RX series.
Sure, the Wankel is widely notorious for being a gas-guzzler, and indeed gets very low mileage, but, as ND4SPD said, if it had received the same amount of refining as the standard internal combustion engine, I am sure it would be much more developed and efficient by now.
Well those are my thoughts.
And what about the biodiesel? I think that was pretty innovative and important too, but it is just too impractical and not a very major engine to be mentioned...:indiff:
 
This one isn't very important, or innovative, but I would like to mention the VQ35DE. It's probably the most widely used engine by Nissan right now, and it performs very well. I don't know a lot about the history on engines, so I'm just going with what I know. Also, the Rotary engine is another to mention.
 
what about Honda's B16A? (first engine with VTEC)

In a way this engine kind of started the whole variable valve timing thing which pretty much every new engine has nowadays.
 
Most important or Innovative, Rogue. The Flathead's pretty darn important, wouldn't you say?
 
You OBVIOUSLY didnt read my whole post.
I remembered that it also counted Important halfway through, and immediately edited accordingly.
 
I am going to say the diesel engine. It plays a far greater role in our lives today then anyone ever thinks about. It also was a huge step forward for agriculture. Before in order to make big horsepower it required huge steam engines, that were bulk and impractical for small farmers. The diesel came along and with it small tractors and suddenly every farm was mechanized. Suddenly a weeks worth of plowing could be done in a day and modern farming was born.

Also nearly everything that gets moved in the world today gets moved by a diesel. Ships, trains, trucks, electronic, and all goods really at some point are hauled by a diesel engine. A gasoline engine simply cannot provide the lugging power needed to do the heavy work of the diesel.
 
...To respond to the whole "Barbaric American" thing, I got the idea for the title after reading Jeremy Clarkson's last column in the Sunday Times. He refers to Americans as "barbaric" because of the fact that we like to work, like to go out into the woods and shoot stuff, and even the most uppity person from Georgetown could decide on a whim to head out of the city and live the country life... Then there was a rant about "The Boss" and how he dresses, and how his music is...

Anyway, according to Clarkson, Americans are "barbaric" in comparison to folks from the UK who are "civilized."


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Anyhow, to reflect on the rotary:
I will give you points on the fact that it was innovative, as there really was not anything like it out on the market today. But if you look for a platform that had an effect on an entire industry, it would not be it. Mazda is still the only one that is using rotary power, and thats it. GM thought about it, but they decided that there really wasent a future in the technology...

On the Honda B-Series:
Yove got a good point there McLaren_Man, as the VTEC sparked a revolution that is continuing to this day. GM just got into VVT on their V6 engines, so that shows how fast progress is in Detroit. But VTEC has only recently had an effect on the industry, say 1992+... I think if we let history progress just a bit longer, we will look back and see what happened in a major way, but from a little more than ten years into the future, I don't think the full efects have been seen yet.
 
Rogue Ssv
I disagree.
Just because the Flathead was widely used, appreciated, and had so many advantages, this thread is asking for the most innovative internal combustion engine, not the one that you like the most.
Although the Flathead is probably the most important here, I would have to say the Wankel Rotary. It is just about as important, and in my opinion, a lot more innovative. It was a totally new idea at the time, and it is still used today. It can garner over 500 hp in the space of a 4-cylinder, and it is still used today in one of the most influential cars of all time, the Mazda RX series.
Sure, the Wankel is widely notorious for being a gas-guzzler, and indeed gets very low mileage, but, as ND4SPD said, if it had received the same amount of refining as the standard internal combustion engine, I am sure it would be much more developed and efficient by now.
Well those are my thoughts.
And what about the biodiesel? I think that was pretty innovative and important too, but it is just too impractical and not a very major engine to be mentioned...:indiff:
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Biodiesel is a fuel not an engine. It can be run in nearly any diesel engine, but has limited success in cold weather. It can gum up a bit and clog fuel filters.
 
I find it hard to pinpoint one engine, The Ford flat head V8 is a good choice as well as the Chev small block and Wankel Rotary.

How about the older DOHC engines like the Jaguar E type 3.8L or maybe Nissan's high revving S20 engine from the GTR's and Fairlady. Cadillac's V16 was different, I could go on naming innovative or important engines but I can't single out just one.
 
GM: VTEC just kicked in yo!


:lol:

Anyways, Look how many cars used the Rotary. One singular Prototype Mustang in 1965, but they couldn't get it to run good enough, the NSU Ro80, but it got terrible gas mileage, and the RX7 and 8. You could count the AMC pacer, but it was stuck with an archaic L6 dating from the Rambler years.

Sure, it's cool, and different, and it's nice to stick it to those morons with connecting rods, but has it really done that much? The diesel has changed the world, commerce is forever altered, its now moving at lightspeed thanks to these low rpm mules. diesel engines power trucks and ships and trains, and the excavators and tools that build our homes. The single most important internal combustion engine is by far the diesel engine. Whether the Fire breathing behemoth in the R10, or the wheezy four pot in that old tractor, diesels aren't going anywhere.

Sure It's innovative, but like YSSMAN said about VTEC, it needs a bit of time. ND4APD said that in 134 years it could grow leaps and bounds. I hope so, even though I won't be around to hear one.



I am going to say the diesel engine. It plays a far greater role in our lives today then anyone ever thinks about. It also was a huge step forward for agriculture. Before in order to make big horsepower it required huge steam engines, that were bulk and impractical for small farmers. The diesel came along and with it small tractors and suddenly every farm was mechanized. Suddenly a weeks worth of plowing could be done in a day and modern farming was born.

Also nearly everything that gets moved in the world today gets moved by a diesel. Ships, trains, trucks, electronic, and all goods really at some point are hauled by a diesel engine. A gasoline engine simply cannot provide the lugging power needed to do the heavy work of the diesel.
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+ rep 👍 That really made me think. I can't believe I forgot about diesel. WAsn't the first IC engine made by Herr Rudolf Diesel himself?
 
...and if we Americans could all pull our heads out of our asses, Diesel power could change the way we consume fuel in this country as well...
 
Nah.. we're americans. We're supposed to be complacent.;) Wanting better? what's that?
 
High-Test
Anyways, Look how many cars used the Rotary. One singular Prototype Mustang in 1965, but they couldn't get it to run good enough, the NSU Ro80, but it got terrible gas mileage, and the RX7 and 8. You could count the AMC pacer, but it was stuck with an archaic L6 dating from the Rambler years.
Click to expand...

Actually, a huge number of Mazda cars used the rotary engine over the years. The Cosmo, the first mazda rotary, the R100, RX2, RX3, RX4, RX5, all the RX7s and the RX8.

Oh, and let's not forget the mighty Roadpacer :dunce:

My vote for the most influential, innovative or otherwise important engine goes the VW flat four (just to buck the V8 trend).
The VW engine has been used for many years in a huge number of ways, in the Beetle (the most mass produced car ever, that retained the same looks for it's whole life), for performance applications, racing cars, dune buggys, military vehicles. The versitility of it helped its success around the world, use in Africa by German armoured cars because normal water-cooled engines would have coughed and died. The fact that it can be fairly heavily modified lends itself to being a cheap sporting vehicle, reliable for rallying too.
It's also a more worldly engine than the flathead V8.
 
Revheadnz
Oh, and let's not forget the mighty Roadpacer :dunce:
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Haha the Roadpacer, I would love one of them. It would suprise alot of people. :D
 
High-Test
Anyways, Look how many cars used the Rotary. One singular Prototype Mustang in 1965....
Click to expand...

I thought it was a Vette protoype (1973 XP987GT) that used a Rotary, or did Ford do one too?
 
IMADreamer
I am going to say the diesel engine. It plays a far greater role in our lives today then anyone ever thinks about. It also was a huge step forward for agriculture. Before in order to make big horsepower it required huge steam engines, that were bulk and impractical for small farmers. The diesel came along and with it small tractors and suddenly every farm was mechanized. Suddenly a weeks worth of plowing could be done in a day and modern farming was born.

Also nearly everything that gets moved in the world today gets moved by a diesel. Ships, trains, trucks, electronic, and all goods really at some point are hauled by a diesel engine. A gasoline engine simply cannot provide the lugging power needed to do the heavy work of the diesel.
Click to expand...
I'd go with this, very well said.

YSSMAN
...To respond to the whole "Barbaric American" thing, I got the idea for the title after reading Jeremy Clarkson's last column in the Sunday Times. He refers to Americans as "barbaric" because of the fact that we like to work, like to go out into the woods and shoot stuff, and even the most uppity person from Georgetown could decide on a whim to head out of the city and live the country life... Then there was a rant about "The Boss" and how he dresses, and how his music is...

Anyway, according to Clarkson, Americans are "barbaric" in comparison to folks from the UK who are "civilized."
Click to expand...
I'd go with that too ;):lol: only kidding. I haven't read that yet but his satire is amusing.
 
VIPERGTSR01
What form of VVT is GM using on the V6's?
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Well, it isn't just on the V6s, it is also on some of the new V8s as well. I don't think GM has a special name for it, as it is generally refered to only as VVT, but the way that it seperates itself from some of the competition is that it is being used not only on their few DOHC engines (such as the 3.6L unit we share in the US and AUS), but also the new OHV V8s such as the L92 6.2L that is seeing duty in the Escalade and Yukon.
 

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