Japanese Sports

[HDT Commodore]

I hope this isn't already here...

Japanese Sports cars from the past like: NSX, RX-7, Supra, 3000GT and even slower ones like: Celica, Silvia, MR-2, FTO...

They're all gone...

The Skyline, Impreza, Z and Lancer are the only ones left.

While most companies say they're going to bring them back, it's going to be a while.

In SuperGT there should be a rule that you need to use a current model, this might get them to hurry up remaking them. I mean, Toyota uses the Supra, which stopped production 15 years ago! (i think).

What do you guys think?

 

[homeforsummer]

I think you're forgetting the Miata and BRZ/86, and also that it's not really a big deal.

I also think there's been a very similar thread before...

 

[Christian_C]

You're a touch behind the times don't you think?

Mazda moved onto the RX-8
The FTO was never really there past the late 90's
Same goes for the 3000GT
The Celica turned into something that just sort of faded away
The NSX was going to be replaced and potentially may be replaced soon
The Supra has been superseded by the LFA (I'd say so and in Super GT Toyota replaced the Supra with the SC430(?) and are planning on moving to the LFA soon)
The Silvia died because the world has moved away from the low range rwd coupe
The MR-2 went on to be the MR-S and then the market died so it died
The MX-5 is still going strong
Nissan brought the GT-R back in the best way possible
Subaru are still keeping the Impreza going
Likewise Mitsubishi are still making the Evo
Nissan brought the Z back in the early 00's
Toyota brought the small rwd coupe back with the 86/BRZ recently

 

[GTPorsche]

The Supra hasn't been used in SuperGT for years now.

 

[Cano]

Welcome to 2001.

 

[HDT Commodore]

I think the RX-8 looks great, but the RX-7 was better in my eyes. I hear they're going to make a new NSX too, so I hope they do!

I like how GT3 and GT1 have some of my favourite cars (if I ignore the butchered Levin and Trueno(not by PD but by Toyota))(GT2 as well probably but I don't have it.)

 

[Eric.]

So the NSX is back in the "rumor phase"?

 

[Takumi Fujiwara]

The Silvia died because the world has moved away from the low range rwd coupe

I have a very strong feeling that Nissan is looking pretty hard at the GT-86/FR-S/BR-Z, and already at least has plans to develop a Silvia successor, if not something already in development.

Nissan has been spotted at The Ring several times testing a mule based on a shortened Z body. Speculation has been that it'll be a new Silvia for quite a while.

And then there's an opening at Mazda for a new rotary car. And Toyota and Lotus could always come up with something to put an MR2 badge on. And we've already got a new NSX, and I really wonder if Toyota is thinking a real Supra successor might not be such a bad idea considering how much interest there was in the LF-A. And... oh, stop me now before I start dreaming that it's 1995 again.

 

[Christian_C]

(if I ignore the butchered Levin and Trueno(not by PD but by Toyota))

Explain?

 

[Punknoodle]

The 86 and LFA aren't the only sports cars to come from Toyota/Lexus currently... There is also the ISF.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Explain?

Went from RWD to FWD..

 

[Christian_C]

Went from RWD to FWD..

Oh of course, silly me

 

[niky]

I'd hardly call it butchered. The original Trueno was a parts bin special. New unibody and adjusted suspension built around a live axle lifted from the 70's cars.

It worked then, but do you see sports car fans buying a new 86 if they did the same thing now?

The mix is different, but you can still buy exciting cars. The current Evo may no longer be as hardcore as before, but it's still insanely quick, and a better GT than the GTO (mostly)... The Ralliart Lancer is better than the FTO in most respects, except engine noise. Subaru still gives you a number of boxer-powered choices. Hyundai's Genesis line-up, as long as you get the track suspension, is exactly what a modern Silvia would be if Nissan built one. Then there's the ever-quicker but still featherweight MX5, the still K20 Civic, the Mazdaspeed3, Focus ST... You're spoiled for choices in terms of fast and involving and tunable new cars.

With the 86 out, about the only thing missing is a cheap mid-engined sports car.

 

[Carlos]

Likewise Mitsubishi are still making the Evo

No they stopped production for the Evo..

The Lancer Evolution X, Eusegi told me, will be the last Evo. “There is still a demand [for the car],” he said, “but we must stop.” Eyebrow up.

“Our influence now is EV technology,” Eusegi said, adding that the decision was a “policy change”.

Eusegi said that customers would find it “easier to understand” what Mitsubishi was about if it was no longer in this motorsport-inspired market.

Original

 

[HDT Commodore]

I'd hardly call it butchered. The original Trueno was a parts bin special. New unibody and adjusted suspension built around a live axle lifted from the 70's cars.

It worked then, but do you see sports car fans buying a new 86 if they did the same thing now?

The mix is different, but you can still buy exciting cars. The current Evo may no longer be as hardcore as before, but it's still insanely quick, and a better GT than the GTO (mostly)... The Ralliart Lancer is better than the FTO in most respects, except engine noise. Subaru still gives you a number of boxer-powered choices. Hyundai's Genesis line-up, as long as you get the track suspension, is exactly what a modern Silvia would be if Nissan built one. Then there's the ever-quicker but still featherweight MX5, the still K20 Civic, the Mazdaspeed3, Focus ST... You're spoiled for choices in terms of fast and involving and tunable new cars.

With the 86 out, about the only thing missing is a cheap mid-engined sports car.

I suppose I just really liked the old Levin and Trueno, however bad they were, and never liked the looks of the new ones. I do see how most people don't like them however.

 

[niky]

I think they're the bee's knees... but I also think they're incredibly over-rated by people who think that they're some kind of incredible giant-slaying super-eco-car breed. They're really just very light cars with rear-wheel drive and basically good handling.

I'd get one, if I could... But given the inflated prices that drift fever and Initial D mania has given secondhand examples? Hell no.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

I thought K20 is phased out too due the stricter emissions regulations..? Well, atleast Type R is finished if memory serves..

 

[Pupik]

I also think there's been a very similar thread before...

I think we revisit a new thread as such once a year. Like a tree, it offers a way to identify the age of GTPlanet.

 

[Eric.]

I thought K20 is phased out too due the stricter emissions regulations..? Well, atleast Type R is finished if memory serves..

K24 in the new ones. More torque, 3 more hp (lol), less revs, and an integrated exhaust manifold...

Last I heard they use the same gearbox and same set of gears as the 06-11 Si, so you'll probably need third gear at or before 50mph.

 

[funkyDucks]

But given the inflated prices that drift fever and Initial D mania has given secondhand examples? Hell no.

This has damaged the reputation of many Japanese sports cars. If it was in Fast and Furious, the price rockets.👎

 

[Anna+Reece]

I agree with the OP. Japanese sports cars are dying. The Levin and Trueno turned into an FF thing, the Celica went from a RWD monster to a FWD teen car, then left altogether, the Evo is turning into an EV, Mazda has no plans for a new Rotary car, and so on. The Japanese sports car is becoming a dying breed. I'm happy the new 86 is here, but I don't know if that will be enough.

 

[Azuremen]

I agree with the OP. Japanese sports cars are dying. The Levin and Trueno turned into an FF thing, the Celica went from a RWD monster to a FWD teen car

Niky already explained the Trueno bit, and Honda was outperforming Toyota in that segment with FWD cars because they are generally faster in that category. And the fact Trueno/Levin GT-S was never really a "sports" car at all, but a RWD econobox with a sort of decent engine in it. I'd take an EG6 over an AE86 any day.

As for the Celica and Supra, if you've ever looked at the chassis codes you'd realize the Supra has the same codes as the old Celicas (A) while the Celica turned into T when it became FWD. Which had turbo AWD option up till the last generation (globally)

The rotary is dying because it is grossly inefficient when compared to other options.

 

[homeforsummer]

the Celica went from a RWD monster to a FWD teen car

Oh yeah, apart from the WRC-winning GT-Four versions, and if we ignore the fact that there's never been a generation of Celica that's not been basically class-leading. Regardless of whether it's a "FWD teen car".

Question: Are you even old enough to remember the RWD Celicas? I'm not far off 30 and I can't, so I'm wondering if it's even really relevant to the conversation if the "FWD teen car" transition happened the best part of three decades ago. It's like saying "The open-topped British sports car is a dying breed" because the MGB disappeared in the 1980s.

the Evo is turning into an EV

No it isn't. Possibly diesel hybrid, but anyone who dismisses that without knowing any details about it clearly has more issues than the car they're talking about.

Mazda has no plans for a new Rotary car

Not true. Delayed, but likely to come back with Skyactiv tech.

The Japanese sports car is becoming a dying breed.

No it isn't. You're just not looking hard enough.

 

[oopssorryy]

The Celica should have done better against the Civic, it did at the end, but the mid 90s hurt the base Celica. The Camry motor was not up to par. Now its GT-FOUR models are rare, fast, and have a great history.

The Supra, 3000GT and GTR just priced themselves out of the market. The Evo and Subaru left rally racing, so their cars got heavy and more consumer freindly. Not sure what happened to the likes of the S13-15s, but the market for the MRS dried up.

And for rotary engines: Show me an NA 1.3 that can match the engine in the RX8. Yes it doesn't get great MPG but its a high powered, small displacment engine.

 

[homeforsummer]

The Supra, 3000GT and GTR just priced themselves out of the market.

Was the GT-R ever a particularly affordable car though? It's gone higher-end with the R35 obviously, but it's always been at the higher-end of the Japanese sports car market. Ditto the 3000GT, which was always a high-tech product. And as for the Supra, I suspect the last run of models was far more successful than earlier Supras.

The Evo and Subaru left rally racing, so their cars got heavy and more consumer freindly.

Leaving rallying was definitely a strike against those two, but I wouldn't say getting "heavy" or "consumer friendly" was really their problem - in Europe at least, the problem was expense. A WRX is a good 50% more expensive than the Impreza Turbo used to be when it first hit the market in the early 90s, and I can't believe that's all simply due to inflation.

Really, the Impreza/Evo problem was that they both priced themselves out of the "lots of performance, not a lot of money" market (at one time, an Impreza Turbo was £20k in the UK, but quicker than stuff five times the price), and that market (again, in Europe) was swallowed up by the 200+ horsepower hot hatches that now dominate.

but the market for the MRS dried up.

The continuing success of the MX-5 suggests that isn't the case.

 

[oopssorryy]

You see a ton of MKIII Supras but just a few MKIVs. Now that might be caused by their owners not selling, i dont know. For Toyota at least, the sporty cars just weren't selling as fast as they used to. Everyone wanted a TT Supra or 300ZX TT but nobody wanted to pay the price. The old 270ish hp limit hurt them, because why get a Supra when a Vette or Stang had more power at the same cost. This is the argument I hear the most of. Why get a Japanese car when they are underpowered next to their price range counter parts.

 

[Christian_C]

And for rotary engines: Show me an NA 1.3 that can match the engine in the RX8. Yes it doesn't get great MPG but its a high powered, small displacment engine.

Oh come on now, We all know it's a false hood to say that a RX-8 has a 1.3 as whilst it may be true in the actual displacement, you're forgetting that each 'rotor' has 3 combustion faces so really it's more like a 2.6 since it pretty much combusts twice for every time a normal piston engine combusts once.

 

[aadil717]

Oh come on now, We all know it's a false hood to say that a RX-8 has a 1.3 as whilst it may be true in the actual displacement, you're forgetting that each 'rotor' has 3 combustion faces so really it's more like a 2.6 since it pretty much combusts twice for every time a normal piston engine combusts once.

Im not an expert on 13B Rotarys so correct me if I'm wrong but; if you're being technically accurate, wouldn't that make it a 3.9?

3.9 would be from 1 full rotation of the 2 rotors?

As normal piston engines rate the displacement with one rotation, the 13B would compare with a 1/3 of that - therefore making 1.3L out of the 3.9L

I do recognise that they are called 2.6s by some people because of the power displacement it seems ridiculous for a NA 1.3 to output that, but accurately speaking it is only a 1.3.

BTW I am no expert on rotaries (as I said above) so I could of got this totally wrong or I'm on the right track...so someone correct me as I would like to learn if I'm wrong!

 

[Christian_C]

Im not an expert on 13B Rotarys so correct me if I'm wrong but; if you're being technically accurate, wouldn't that make it a 3.9?

3.9 would be from 1 full rotation of the 2 rotors?

As normal piston engines rate the displacement with one rotation, the 13B would compare with a 1/3 of that - therefore making 1.3L out of the 3.9L

I do recognise that they are called 2.6s by some people because of the power displacement it seems ridiculous for a NA 1.3 to output that, but accurately speaking it is only a 1.3.

BTW I am no expert on rotaries (as I said above) so I could of got this totally wrong or I'm on the right track...so someone correct me as I would like to learn if I'm wrong!

Agreed and I thought the same until I read this:

http://www.rx7.com/techarticles_displacement.html

 

[aadil717]

Agreed and I thought the same until I read this:

http://www.rx7.com/techarticles_displacement.html

Ah thanks!

So the conclusion is that it's a 2.6L
Don't understand the 4 faces bit at the bottom of the article, but it's late at night so meh...

I'm not getting all that info through my head just now, maybe it's the time of night.

I'll read through it properly tomorrow.