JUDGE ME, thread for analysis of racing incidents

[instinct808]

I couldn't find any thread like that
there were a few, but always focused only on that 1 specified incident from main post

I will start
my fault or nah?

now I think that was perfect divebomb and he should be more carefully if he brakes earlier instead of turn on me without looking at the mirrors and then
important note: you should look at fuel, "telemetry" of brakes and speeds in critical point

 

[bduddy]

Way too late. Fault, overtaking car.

 

[BaareCZ]

Textbook divebomb. It is not his obligation to be glued to the mirrors in case someone behind him decides to do something stupid like this. Plus he was not that early on the brakes.

EDIT:

Wait. What do you mean by : "I think that was perfect divebomb"? You think divebombing is an approved technique? What? LOL.

 

[watto79]

now I think that was perfect divebomb

 

[VBR]

It was a really bad overtake, 100% the fault of the overtaking driver. Divebombing is an exceptionally dirty thing to do. If you consistently drove like that in a public lobby I was hosting, you'd be kicked out & put on my PSN block list.


👎

 

[breeminator]

I can see why people's first reaction is it's a bad overtake, but I'm going to offer a contrary opinion. I think it may have been okay, though I can't be certain, and would need to see an example of a clean pass through there by the overtaking driver to see how they are able to take it without the contact. Why I think it may have been okay:

1. At the point of contact, the overtaking car had achieved far more overlap than is required to have the right to the racing line. They had half their car ahead of the car on the outside, basically an entire car length more than is needed to have the right to the racing line.

2. Given the above, the question is did the overtaking car achieve that overlap by outbraking themselves. It's hard to tell, as the contact affects their speed and line, but it seems possible they would have executed a clean run through the chicane if the car being overtaken hadn't turned into them.

 

[BaareCZ]

I can see why people's first reaction is it's a bad overtake, but I'm going to offer a contrary opinion. I think it may have been okay, though I can't be certain, and would need to see an example of a clean pass through there by the overtaking driver to see how they are able to take it without the contact. Why I think it may have been okay:

1. At the point of contact, the overtaking car had achieved far more overlap than is required to have the right to the racing line. They had half their car ahead of the car on the outside, basically an entire car length more than is needed to have the right to the racing line.

2. Given the above, the question is did the overtaking car achieve that overlap by outbraking themselves. It's hard to tell, as the contact affects their speed and line, but it seems possible they would have executed a clean run through the chicane if the car being overtaken hadn't turned into them.

I agree. He probably would have made it through the corner cleanly. IF the other driver had been paying full attention to him the whole time and adjusted his line accordingly (which he had no obligation to do because he was ahead by at least two car lengths at the moment of braking). But that doesn't change anything about it being a filthy divebomb and therefore a bad overtake. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Nuschel01]

Ricciardo-overtake imho as he was able to clear the corner and didn‘t overshoot it really.

 

[8l23ub]

If the car on the outside hadn't turned into you, do 'you' think you'd have made the corner?
Only you can answer that

 

[watto79]

If the car on the outside hadn't turned into you, do 'you' think you'd have made the corner?
Only you can answer that

If the OP can upload clips of how they took that corner on the other 3 laps we can all know 👍

In this clip they are going flat out until just before the 50 board. Would be interesting to know if that's where they always brake.

 

[Lord Protector]

I wouldn’t call it a divebomb... he would have taken the corner without a problem, even with braking much later than the car in front. The car in front started braking way too early and then hit the car next to it.

 

[breeminator]

I agree. He probably would have made it through the corner cleanly. IF the other driver had been paying full attention to him the whole time and adjusted his line accordingly (which he had no obligation to do because he was ahead by at least two car lengths at the moment of braking). But that doesn't change anything about it being a filthy divebomb and therefore a bad overtake. But that's just my opinion.

This is where it would be helpful if PD were to define a set of rules for the game. If we go by the rules of F1 as interpreted here:
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
then it's the relative position at the apex that matters.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I agree. He probably would have made it through the corner cleanly. IF the other driver had been paying full attention to him the whole time and adjusted his line accordingly (which he had no obligation to do because he was ahead by at least two car lengths at the moment of braking). But that doesn't change anything about it being a filthy divebomb and therefore a bad overtake. But that's just my opinion.

I doubt he would have made it without cutting the second part at that speed and angle. Thanks to the assist of the other car he makes it, which is what makes it a dive bomb. Bad overtake even if the other car did avoid.

This is where it would be helpful if PD were to define a set of rules for the game. If we go by the rules of F1 as interpreted here:
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
then it's the relative position at the apex that matters.

That's why you need stewards as simply beating the other car to the apex, as the rules state, can always be done by not braking at all.

Consider the textbook method for overtaking in a corner: the attacker takes an inside line, gets alongside the defender in the braking zone, and beats the defender to the apex.

Some smart AI would help. If the game could calculate his chances at actually making the chicane that way without hitting the orange cone on the second part, then it could look at whether he was alongside in the braking zone and first to the apex.

Fact is, by braking this late on this line, he has turned his car into a missile with no options to adjust or avoid, hoping the other car has enough situational awareness and self preservation to get out of his way. Draft pass on the straight instead.

 

[instinct808]

the question is did the overtaking car achieve that overlap by outbraking themselves. It's hard to tell, as the contact affects their speed and line, but it seems possible they would have executed a clean run through the chicane if the car being overtaken hadn't turned into them.

If the car on the outside hadn't turned into you, do 'you' think you'd have made the corner?

I will make it easy without contact, look at my speed, only 140km/h when contact happen and I can still brake more if needed
this is pretty fast corner on RSS with tuning (full downforce at the front and high rear height), even if I'm not on optimal line

for me divebomb isn't pejorative (maybe because english isn't my main language), this is agressive move at the limit, but if co-driver is aware of the situation in 99% nothing will happen
I'd like to remind you this isn't chess match, this is racing - especially on track like that where this probably would be my last oportunity in the next 2-3 minutes when I was a lot faster at this point with lot less fuel

If the OP can upload clips of how they took that corner on the other 3 laps we can all know 👍

he was on good line at the clip, this is 180 km/h chicane
but if I will be in front and I will know about lighter car behind I will never took this line because that opens big opportunity
I thought he will be aware because he is fast and know that track pretty well too

 

[Granadier]

Oooh, I like the idea of this thread!

To the OP; definitely your fault. That's a textbook divebomb that I constantly have to watch out for because drivers online will try to pull this move all. the. time. Just because you'd make the corner at that speed on an empty track doesn't mean that you are in the right to take it at that speed with an opponent in front of you.

Instead what you should've done is slowed yourself more at this point so that as you and the Aston entered the corner you were alongside them in a controllable fashion and would be able to defend your now under-control line. That would've given you the edge on the way out of the chicane to take the place without divebombing and slamming the other car off the track.

-----

To provide more content here; how about this spin that happened to me last night in the FIA race? Was I in the wrong here for my wider line, or was the other driver in the wrong for not adapting to my car's position?

edit: clarifying that I am the Jaguar driver in this clip

 

[GTR365]

I couldn't find any thread like that
there were a few, but always focused only on that 1 specified incident from main post

I will start
my fault or nah?

Great thread idea. I hope it becomes busy with inquiries like this.
I especially like how you provided views from all drivers involved.


I will assess this to be the fault of the overtaking driver. If I were to assign blame individually, 98/2.
Your move, in my experience, with generous tact has been described as 'ambitious'. From the files of a repository labeled "We'll Never Know", I doubt you successfully could have negotiated this chicane with the attitude your car possessed upon entry even without contact or obstruction from the other driver. I qualify this opinion with my observation that the other driver seemed to make no errors such as dropping a wheel off track, missing a downshift, locking the brakes or making any dubious moves. I also feel that without such a mistake from another driver or knowledge of a prior incident involving you two, this complex is widely considered not a passing zone.

I don't feel you drove dirty. I think you acted in error, both in judgement & in execution.
I acknowledge your request to view telemetry, but consider this information inconsequential here.


As a hearty consolation, I'd offer you a version of the home game, but it seems you already have it. Thanks for playing.

 

[dangerman1985]

First one i felt like you missed you're breaking point, he was at least a few tenths behind you, but i feel you left way too much room and closed the door a bit. Second video looked intentional, if i was the guy in the Jag, id be fuming.

 

[watto79]

To provide more content here; how about this spin that happened to me last night in the FIA race? Was I in the wrong here for my wider line, or was the other driver in the wrong for not adapting to my car's position?

To be honest, it looks like you understeer into the other cars back quarter panel. I can't see what the other car could have done differently.

I don't think you did anything on purpose but no blame can be put on the other driver (in my opinion).

EDIT - Sorry - YOU are the Jaguar and get hit by the Porsche. I was looking at it as you were the Porsche driver. Yeah, not your fault in anyway!

for me divebomb isn't pejorative (maybe because english isn't my main language), this is agressive move at the limit,

Okay I get it. "Divebomb" has been lost in translation. My understanding of a deliberate divebomb is an uncontrolled lunge to the inside where only contact will mean you get around the corner. I get that this is not what you meant.

 

[GTR365]

To provide more content here; how about this spin that happened to me last night in the FIA race? Was I in the wrong here for my wider line, or was the other driver in the wrong for not adapting to my car's position?

I will judge this to be 100/0 fault of the Porsche driver. I believe this section to be easily three lanes wide at alternative, reduced pace. Jaguar driver (I assume @Granadier) seemed to be occupying little more than the right most lane leaving two lanes for Porsche. Jaguar trajectory/pace combo (it's a vector, right?) seemed to be well capable of holding this line (which also allowed space with respect to vector of leading Benz) while the Porsche driver looked to be on an intruding path with plenty of room to driver's left.

 

[Granadier]

Whoops!! I should’ve clarified that I was the Jaguar driver. Provided the Porsche’s perspective to give a better view of the incident.

Appreciate the insight all. Helps to know that there wasn’t much I could’ve changed here to prevent the incident. I guess looking objectively I could’ve gained a better line going into this corner by letting off a bit more through the previous. Which could’ve closed the door on the Porsche’s advance more. But who knows.

 

[Vegard]

Aggressive by the BMW, poor awareness by the Aston.

Ultimately I'd call it a racing incident, no further action.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

It looks more like avoiding a crash to me than a pre-planned overtake. The lead car brakes a lot more than necessary, the car we're on-board with can still make the corner at the shallow angle and with the hit on the outside corner so was not going too fast.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I just got accused of dive bombing and brake checking by this driver.

I didn't save the replay unfortunately.

Is that a dive bomb? I don't think so.

 

[kilesa4568]

The Aston turned into the BMW before the 1st apex of a pretty fast chicane so I'm not sure how the BMW can be blamed...

The one thing I get from these types of thread is how polite some of you are when you're racing. Possibly too polite?

As long as you're not an over the top 'rubbin' is racing' numpty, get stuck in. You have to ask the other driver's hard questions.

 

[instinct808]

I just got accused of dive bombing and brake checking by this driver.

u gave him even too much space
at 0:19 mark you should go full throttle from there, u was fully in front and on perfect line but a lot slower than you should/can be, I don't know why you decided to go to curb without throttle instead of normal acceleration

you slides a bit but to be honest I don't know why, and with TCS that wasn't a problem at all and you still should be able to accelerate faster than you did

 

[Sven Jurgens]

u gave him even too much space
at 0:19 mark you should go full throttle from there, u was fully in front and on perfect line but a lot slower than you should/can be, I don't know why you decided to go to curb without throttle instead of normal acceleration

I saw him coming on the radar and tried to avoid by tucking in even further. At 0:19 he's practically touching already. I rather avoid any chance of the other car ending up too wide since that's a penalty for me :/

 

[watto79]

I just got accused of dive bombing and brake checking by this driver.

I didn't save the replay unfortunately.

Is that a dive bomb? I don't think so.

In no way a dive bomb. You out brake them and make the apex fine. Only then do they drive into you.

They should be grateful you backed off after they messed up the chicane.

 

[Deadpool]

I will start
my fault or nah?

I’m leaning more on the side of “racing incident” here but with more blame on your end.

I would need to see if you are able to make it through the chicane cleanly without contact. When he starts to turn in you are already fully alongside him, so he was partly to blame for being oblivious.

My guess is he was using a view with no rear mirror and didn’t see you go to the inside. I use cockpit view so I would have seen it and left you room or slowed down anticipating you being compromised for the exit.

You caught him by surprise and he could have easily left room as he wasn’t committed. Yes your move was “ambitious” but it wasn’t wild/crazy. So racing incident IMO.

To provide more content here; how about this spin that happened to me last night in the FIA race? Was I in the wrong here for my wider line, or was the other driver in the wrong for not adapting to my car's position?

edit: clarifying that I am the Jaguar driver in this clip

100% his fault, he approached two cars battling and was brain dead with what he did.

I just got accused of dive bombing and brake checking by this driver.

I didn't save the replay unfortunately.

Is that a dive bomb? I don't think so.

Clean pass by you. You can see in the rear view mirror that you were past him when he turned in. The idiot just decided to keep his line as if you weren’t there. There’s no view where he wouldn’t have been able to see you. Completely his fault. As you said, you even tightened your line to leave him more room.

So many people are oblivious to what’s going on, zero spatial awareness. And then to make it worse they don’t know how to adjust their line for changing dynamics. And they wonder why their rankings are terrible.

 

[Madracer1000]

I just got accused of dive bombing and brake checking by this driver.

I didn't save the replay unfortunately.

Is that a dive bomb? I don't think so.

Disagree if you want but on a separate note, if I see anyone running both the German flag mated with an Iron Cross i'm not going to treat their car with any sort of respect. They're either completely ignorant or they know exactly what they're symbolizing.

 

[Yassi_99]

I don't want to disrespect @instinct808 but this was one of the worst ,,clean" overtaking attempts I have seen. Braked far too late for the inside line and used a corner which is quite tricky to overtake in. I would only make a move if I already pulled next to him on the straight. It didn't look like you gave him any space as well. If he avoided your divebomb (which is almost impossible), you would probably run wide/mess up the exit/get a penalty (or all at once). Be more patient and wait for a clean opportunity :-)