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- hpw1707978
Kazunori Yamauch would we see Motorcycles addded in GT6 or GT7 ?
- Thread starter hpw1707978
- 16 comments
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- 1,996
- WNC
- TRLWNC
We have already got a question for a Tourist Trophy 2:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/tourist-trophy-2.309349/
Hope it happens!
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/tourist-trophy-2.309349/
Hope it happens!
- 5,285
- Sick_Cylinder
The problem I have with bikes in video games is how to control them! I have tried a few titles and they were all terrible with a hand controller.
I use a wheel for GT6, but that would be completely unrealistic with a bike video game. Some kind of handlebar based control system would be needed to get immersion in the game - perhaps scooter style and at the Logitech DFGT level. Even then, if it didn't have a proper hand clutch and foot gear change it wouldn't feel very realistic - perhaps a Logitech G27 / T500Rs equivalent. It would probably need to replicate a touring style riding position with the person sat on a normal chair or sofa as a racing crouch is not comfortable when static - when you ride a sports bike in real life the wind against your chest takes the weight of your upper body off your wrists unless you go down into a full crouch which is not necessary on the road and you would only do on a track day.
Like others I would rather PD concentrate on cars, sound, tracks, liveries, event creator, track creator etc first. Once they have made the TT track and Pikes Peak for GT7 they will have some great tracks to launch a new Tourist Trophy, but they will need to partner with Thrustmaster or someone similar to come up with an appropriate control device because as an experienced driver and biker I find hand controllers poor for a car, but worse than useless for a bike simulation.
I use a wheel for GT6, but that would be completely unrealistic with a bike video game. Some kind of handlebar based control system would be needed to get immersion in the game - perhaps scooter style and at the Logitech DFGT level. Even then, if it didn't have a proper hand clutch and foot gear change it wouldn't feel very realistic - perhaps a Logitech G27 / T500Rs equivalent. It would probably need to replicate a touring style riding position with the person sat on a normal chair or sofa as a racing crouch is not comfortable when static - when you ride a sports bike in real life the wind against your chest takes the weight of your upper body off your wrists unless you go down into a full crouch which is not necessary on the road and you would only do on a track day.
Like others I would rather PD concentrate on cars, sound, tracks, liveries, event creator, track creator etc first. Once they have made the TT track and Pikes Peak for GT7 they will have some great tracks to launch a new Tourist Trophy, but they will need to partner with Thrustmaster or someone similar to come up with an appropriate control device because as an experienced driver and biker I find hand controllers poor for a car, but worse than useless for a bike simulation.
- 1,996
- WNC
- TRLWNC
You know, the Thrustmaster wheels CAN replace the steering wheel..... 
- 5,285
- Sick_Cylinder
You know, the Thrustmaster wheels CAN replace the steering wheel.....
I drove my Ford for a while with the Thrustmaster TH8RS shift knob and used the Ford one for gaming!
- 8,704
I dont know if anyone has made a motorcycle handlebae for games, but I did a quick sketch.
The clutch and front brake are hidden at this view. The gear selector is tricky to try to accommodate foot pressure. So I made it as a stirrup.
- 7,215
- beyond down under
- Skython11
That's actually a fairly decent idea. But getting physics/controls to work with that would be ultra complicated. I mean, it wouldn't work like the one stick for lean and the other for steering, because the steering does most of the work there. In real life, low speed steering is done with the bars with very minimal body movement. But at speeds above like 15KM/H it's all in the lean, replicating that in game would be very difficult. But then again, recreating the handling of a car is very difficult, and it's been done.
- 1,996
- WNC
- TRLWNC
I was just thinking a 200 degree wheel, and hoping it doesn't upset the purists......
FastFurious77
Premium
- 1,823
- England
I mean they tried hard in GT5, GT6 and we have certain categories still not added to the game. So here is what we DO have from GT5 and GT6 to date. It gets confusing.
In a list of Racing Categories or Disciplines in GT5, GT6 currently as follows.
1) FIA GT
2) LeMans
3) JGTC & Super GT
4) WRC
5) DTM
6) Nascar
7) Formula One
8) Indy
9)Pikes Peak
All the above comprise of GT1, GT2, GT3 cars. Super GT, Touring cars, World Rally, Nascar, Formula One and Indy. There aren't many Formula One or Indy cars yet in GT6 which needs to be expanded maybe in GT7.
This is called making GT7 truly epic and truly different. You could just make these side event of course and not be able to drive them with any other of the categories or disciplines but within their own class. Like rally with rally cars etc. Of course depending on track and discipline certain vehicles would be locked. So basically the track you pick or event picks the car class and unlocks said vehicle class. Of course my no#1 Drag racing. I want this so much in GT7. So here are the classes of automotive racing not in GT5 or GT6.
1) Funny Cars (Drag*)
2) Top Fuel (Drag*)
2) Race Truck
3) Hill Climb = Mountain climbing or hill not pikes peak road climbing.
4) Dirt Racing
5) Monster Truck
Racing Trucks would be epic aswell.
We now have the power of the PS4. And PS4 developers are bringing open world gaming in 2014. Open world is the way forward and i could see GT7 having the best of both worlds. Closed tracks and circuit racing for all these types of racing aswell as open world for some.
Kaz wants to bring GT7 upto modern times and 2014. So without spoiling GT7. Kaz spoke about wanting to make the tracks be so you could free run or free roam them like a huge city and the tracks.
By adding Mille Miglia you have so much racing history and so many cars. And you could race in an open world city to city event. This would easily fit GT7 into a SIM and open world racing category very easily. Of course there is also Gumball, or any other long distance racing too which i haven't thought about. Also other long hill climb events, longer rally stages would fit the open world better.
In a list of Racing Categories or Disciplines in GT5, GT6 currently as follows.
1) FIA GT
2) LeMans
3) JGTC & Super GT
4) WRC
5) DTM
6) Nascar
7) Formula One
8) Indy
9)Pikes Peak
All the above comprise of GT1, GT2, GT3 cars. Super GT, Touring cars, World Rally, Nascar, Formula One and Indy. There aren't many Formula One or Indy cars yet in GT6 which needs to be expanded maybe in GT7.
This is called making GT7 truly epic and truly different. You could just make these side event of course and not be able to drive them with any other of the categories or disciplines but within their own class. Like rally with rally cars etc. Of course depending on track and discipline certain vehicles would be locked. So basically the track you pick or event picks the car class and unlocks said vehicle class. Of course my no#1 Drag racing. I want this so much in GT7. So here are the classes of automotive racing not in GT5 or GT6.
1) Funny Cars (Drag*)
2) Top Fuel (Drag*)
2) Race Truck
3) Hill Climb = Mountain climbing or hill not pikes peak road climbing.
4) Dirt Racing
5) Monster Truck
Racing Trucks would be epic aswell.
We now have the power of the PS4. And PS4 developers are bringing open world gaming in 2014. Open world is the way forward and i could see GT7 having the best of both worlds. Closed tracks and circuit racing for all these types of racing aswell as open world for some.
Kaz wants to bring GT7 upto modern times and 2014. So without spoiling GT7. Kaz spoke about wanting to make the tracks be so you could free run or free roam them like a huge city and the tracks.
By adding Mille Miglia you have so much racing history and so many cars. And you could race in an open world city to city event. This would easily fit GT7 into a SIM and open world racing category very easily. Of course there is also Gumball, or any other long distance racing too which i haven't thought about. Also other long hill climb events, longer rally stages would fit the open world better.
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- 8,704
It's the other way around. My bike is a measly 120 kg dry, and it's very sensitive to the position of my body weight at low speed. At high speed, you can ride in a straight line with the bike canted over, because it's so stable.
That's due mostly to the gyroscopic force of the wheels: my front is 21", so at 40 mph it's an appreciable effect.
The lean angle is obviously required to balance the bike's wanting to fall inwards under gravity against it wanting to fall outward under the angular acceleration.
Because of the gyroscopic stability, purely leaning does little at high speed. You have to initiate lean by exploiting the bike's inertia: turn the bars right and the bike wants to carry on forwards, so it falls over to the left; then you turn left to catch the lean, and go around the left hand corner. This is the most responsive way to ride at low speed, also.
For pad controls, the most intuitive and controllable approach is to use the stick to specify lean angle, and then an AI supplies the simulated real controls to achieve that angle. TT already did this.
For us pros (
), allowing a 1:1 "steering only" mode would be interesting, even on the pad. In the case of a handle bar controller, the AI would be left in control of body position, unless a pressure pad could be utilised.EDIT: the handlebar base could be sturdily centre-sprung and articulated like a joystick.
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- 7,215
- beyond down under
- Skython11
It's the other way around. My bike is a measly 120 kg dry, and it's very sensitive to the position of my body weight at low speed. At high speed, you can ride in a straight line with the bike canted over, because it's so stable.
That's due mostly to the gyroscopic force of the wheels: my front is 21", so at 40 mph it's an appreciable effect.
The lean angle is obviously required to balance the bike's wanting to fall inwards under gravity against it wanting to fall outward under the angular acceleration.
Because of the gyroscopic stability, purely leaning does little at high speed. You have to initiate lean by exploiting the bike's inertia: turn the bars right and the bike wants to carry on forwards, so it falls over to the left; then you turn left to catch the lean, and go around the left hand corner. This is the most responsive way to ride at low speed, also.
For pad controls, the most intuitive and controllable approach is to use the stick to specify lean angle, and then an AI supplies the simulated real controls to achieve that angle. TT already did this.
For us pros (
EDIT: the handlebar base could be sturdily centre-sprung and articulated like a joystick.
Well that's explained 20 times better than I ever could.
But how on earth would you ride straight with the bike leaned over? Whenever I lean I naturally turn, and if i tried to go straight with the lean, I'd naturally go upright again.I might be getting this wrong, but what I meant with the low speed body movement was that you don't do much of it, because at low speed your body placement is very sensitive. So you don't move much to avoid falling over and breaking the rear brake lever (I've totally been there
), hence why I said minimal body movement. But at high speed you use your body and lean the bike in and yourself in to get through the turn. Though it is quite likely that anyone else here who says they ride is more experienced than me, I've only been on the road for about a month.
- 8,704
Your body weight is very important, yes, it's a large proportion of the total weight. Moving your body moves the centre of mass, which affects the handling, naturally.Well that's explained 20 times better than I ever could.
I might be getting this wrong, but what I meant with the low speed body movement was that you don't do much of it, because at low speed your body placement is very sensitive. So you don't move much to avoid falling over and breaking the rear brake lever (I've totally been there
Though it is quite likely that anyone else here who says they ride is more experienced than me, I've only been on the road for about a month.
The issue is that the force you can put on the bike in the act of "leaning" (in order to steer around corners) will struggle to match the gyroscopic forces, keeping the bike upright. People have tried hanging off the bike with fixed bars, and it just wobbles and rights itself. My first quick right hander with a 21" front wheel was an event, I very nearly didn't go round. I'd been used to smaller wheels and low speeds, and didn't appreciate the importance of steering, nor did I really notice exactly how I was getting around corners - it just seemed to happen by "instinct". I still concentrate hard for fast corners, to make sure I remember to steer decisively and not just imagine leaning - I do most of my mileage at low speeds.
At low speeds, the gyroscopic force is greatly reduced, so you're right, you have to be more careful with position and moving. Stood up and at low speed, you can steer the bike on the footpegs, by applying pressure on one foot or the other, especially on slippery surfaces.
Regarding riding canted over, there's a small window where positioning your body to one side allows the bike to lean slightly the other way but still have your combined mass' centre directly over the tyre contact patches, and therefore you don't fall over. It's much more marked on a push bike, due to the greater mass ratio of the movable rider to the bike - the bike could be laid flat and picked up again (on a suitable surface, e.g. polished marble).
In terms of controlling a game, steering is king for circuit racing. Body position is important, but mainly for optimising centre of mass.
For low speeds, down to stationary (try balancing without moving, and you'll appreciate the footpeg thing), steering and body position matter.
Sadly, steering a bike is a bit counter intuitive (hence instinct usually taking over), so "lean" controls will dominate in games - but the physics engine will require the complex input described above. So you let an AI handle translating "desired lean angle" (and hence angular velocity) from the player's input into the necessary steering and body position inputs for the physics engine.
And this is, oddly enough, where we are with TT. For the handle bar controller concept, you're left with supplying raw steering input, and possibly body position. But steering is by far the more important control, and riders don't win or lose races based on their precise location on the bike, so much. So an AI can handle that, TT had a configurable rider position for different situations already.
There's an issue with pulling wheelies and stoppies, though... Also, riding off road, pumping the suspension is a useful technique for playing with weight distribution for various reasons, culminating in the pure technical riding in moto trials. That's quite a control challenge, but probably won't feature in a TT sequel anyway.
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