Kers

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One of the benefits of having a series like F1 is the potential for new technologies that "trickle down" to the production car world. Here is a case, however, of a production car technology (in it's most basic concept) being adopted by F1. One of the biggest drawbacks to contemporary hybrid technology is the high cost of the specialized batteries and the environmental impact of the disposing of those batteries in large quantities should the technology gain a larger foothold in the marketplace.

I find it most interesting that the two largest hybrid technology car companies, Honda and Toyota have both chosen to go down a slightly different path, that being the flywheel design. I have read this here but was previously under the impression that it was BMW that utilized the flywheel concept ? If this concept can be developed to the point that it can transfer to production car requirements and eliminate the costly (and is some cases, less safe in a collision) battery packs, replacing them with a simple flywheel to store the recovered energy may be well worth the developmental cost.
 
The problem with a flywheel is that it's efficient only for a short period of time - internal friction, as low as it is (engineers worked hard to reduce it in this case), will eventually seep energy away. You can leave your car charged today and return tomorrow and use that electricity - but not in a flywheel. So they useful in a racing-situation, but I don't know how useful they are in a street-car - and they'll never be useful as a full replacement for the internal combustion engine, anyway. Also, it's only Honda and Williams who went the flywheel route. Toyota are working on batteries, but their system isn't race-ready yet.

BMW's system isn't a real electro-mechanical battery, but rather a supercapacitor based solution.

The flywheel is, however, does seem like the safer option (in a racing-environment). While it is a rather heavy steel device spinning at several tens of thousands of RPMs (said to be around 40k-60kRPM), it is encased in a strong shell, and with emergency systems to stop the flywheel.
 
mu22stang
I have noticed an interesting change in RPM that seem inconsistent with engine RPMs of years past. The sound is almost as if the driver accidentally downshifts for a moment. I though at first this was KERS power boost causing a quick shift in power and engine tone, yet I noticed this on cars such as the Brawn that have no KERS system. Can anyone confirm what this is, or point me in the direction where it's discussed?
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I know somebody here knows this...
 
It'd be much easier if you attached a video of the phenomena described. I'm not sure if what I'm thinking about is the same thing.
 
I can't seem to find any video of worth for this on youtube but I won't believe I'm the only one that notices this. It happens every lap on every car, no matter if it has KERS or not. I guess the best thing to say is pay attention to the onboards tomorrow during practice. It usually happens under positive acceleration, but namely as the car reaches higher speeds, 165+.

Edit: Found what I'm talking about. It's not a great example, but represents the sound of confusion in the gear box. Listen to Barrichello's RPMs just before turn 3. I realize that in this case, it happens under negative acceleration, but the sound is identical.

 
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Paste the code at the end into the message and wrap youtube tags around it. :)
 
mu22stang
I know somebody here knows this...
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Anthony Davidson explained this during Friday practice of the Malaysian Grand Prix. The sound has nothing to do with the actual cars. If I recall correctly, he said it's a sound problem with the T-cam.
 
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Jackington
Anthony Davidson explained this during Friday practice of the Malaysian Grand Prix. The sound has nothing to do with the actual cars. If I recall correctly, he said it's a sound problem with the T-cam.
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Yes I was just about to post this.

I've noticed it where it sounds like they drop a gear or hit a limiter but on the BBC practice session they said its a problem with the mic not picking up the sound correctly. I've heard it on many cars but seems inconsistent.

I watched closely and noticed on a brawn car and one lap it did and the next lap in the same section it didn't.
 
I did not mean for the kers to power a car on its own for a lap I meant when using it, the v8 could use less fuel when kers is in use thus saving enough fuel to go an extra lap, I know the kers is capped at the moment but I was think maybe for the future on road cars on somthing,

Am I right in thinking that kers is recharged by the engine (not the brakes) when the car is braking i.e, he comes off the power and when the clutch is activated sending rpm the the kers system and not the wheels
 
Kers is finished. NO refuelling in 2010 means the teams will have to scrap KERS in place of a larger fuel tank.
 
KERS will be required, in fact, teams which run with the £40 million budget cap will be able to run a more powerful KERS system. It will be challenging, but I'm sure the teams will be able to work around a larger fuel tank.

The FIA technical regulations of next year have revealed that a more powerful Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) will be permitted for those teams electing to use the FIA's new £40 million cost-capping scheme. Rules for this year state that all units - currently used by Ferrari, McLaren, Renault and BMW - must only be used for 6.6 seconds per lap, yielding a boost of eighty horsepower.

From next year onwards, however, those following the cost-capped regulations will be permitted to use a KERS with maximum power of 120 kilowatts as opposed to this year's 60 kilowatts. GPUpdate.net calculates this output to yield over an extra 120 horsepower in comparison to those using the restricted KERS, which could be enough of a reason for all teams to switch to the cost capped regulations.

Reactions to the cost cap implementation so far have come from McLaren and Williams, both of which request that all teams must follow one set of technical regulations as opposed to the proposed two-tier system.
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Source: http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/04/30/more-powerful-kers-for-cost-cappers/
 
GPupdate should update their calculators. 60kW~=82HP, therefore 120kW~=160HP. 160-80=80.

The full part of the new KERS rules, as published today:

They now have 800kJ to store (up from 400kJ), and to 120kW (up from 60kW). It basically means either double the power for exactly the same time, or the same power for double the time, or any mix between those.

It's also cost-saving: Instead of developing a new system, they can strap two systems at once into their car. Considering the McLaren (lightest unit on the grid, they said) weighs 25kg, that means you can have 160HP for 50kg.


But the cost-capped teams have far, far better advantages: Fully active front and rear wings, no limit on the number of engines nor a rev-limit (and engine-costs are excluded from the budget!), and 4WD. The FIA is going insane, it seems.
 
But just imagine if this keeps, F1 will be even more insane than the FIA :eek:
 
So its safe to me to finally put a bet on Adrian Sutil world champion 2010? I can get amazing odds right now :sly:
 
He'd plant that in the wall. :p


With these regs, Williams, Fi, RBR, Brawn, Renault, STR's buyer and whatever new teams join are a sure bet to get capped. Toyota, McLaren, BMW and Ferrari will have a tough time justifying the other option - they're likely to fold in and join the cap-teams.
 
620KG minimum weight limit should help the heavier drivers. 4WD is a theory and nothing more than that. I'd say these new rules for next year are serving no other purpose than to make sure every team signs up for it.
 
Indeed, it smells of...




Plan: Get every team to sign up, then, next year, add engines to the budget, cap the revs again, restrict aero again - all in the name of safety.
 
Metar
Indeed, it smells of...




Plan: Get every team to sign up, then, next year, add engines to the budget, cap the revs again, restrict aero again - all in the name of safety.
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Heheheheh, brilliant film, brilliant out-take. One that actualy funny for once.
 
Metar
Actually, re-reading it, they explicitly stated that the engines are out of the budget-cap only for 2010.
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Are we the first ones to see through this stupid plan? :sly:
 
Metar
But the cost-capped teams have far, far better advantages: Fully active front and rear wings, no limit on the number of engines nor a rev-limit (and engine-costs are excluded from the budget!), and 4WD. The FIA is going insane, it seems.
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As well as unlimited in-season testing.

Which is why you're insane if you don't take part.

I don't think 4WD would work well-where would the drive-shaft go?
 
Up the driver's arse? That bit indeed puzzles me - they'll have to raise the seat and pedals by at least 10cm, and make sure the damn thing is safe enough. Then they'll have to find a way of either making the nose lower to incorporate that shaft, or connect it to yet another shaft that goes higher up into existing-style noses (more sensible - less aerodynamic compromises).


So, in short, the new regs allow us the type of mega-monsters that weren't even allowed in 40 years ago - by 1969 we no longer had active aero - and with modern tech, these specifications will allow teams to build cars that will obliterate 2004's lap records. Imagine the next McLaren, with a 850HP 21kRPM V8 one-race engine, plus a 160HP KERS boost that can be channeled to the front for traction off the line and out of the corners, active aerodynamics that flatten the wings on the straights and change asymmetrically to aid cornering (more downforce on the inside wheels).

The FIA will have to limit the cars again for 2011 under safety-grounds, re-restrict the engines and their development for cost reasons, perhaps again ban moveable aerodynamics... And we'll land just where the FIA wants them to be: Nowhere.
 
Either that or change their minds about the rules once everyone has signed on the dotted line!
 
Seeing as there is no GP thread,

I've been hearing that Ferrari have done a test.
car should be 15 kilos lighter, having the double decker diffuser and aerodynamic updates
 
The thread will be re-opened soon, so don't worry about it.
 
Metar
With these regs, Williams, Fi, RBR, Brawn, Renault, STR's buyer and whatever new teams join are a sure bet to get capped. Toyota, McLaren, BMW and Ferrari will have a tough time justifying the other option - they're likely to fold in and join the cap-teams.
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Right that's why I'm seeing this a way of forcing everyone into a cap without "forcing" them.
 

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