Laaaag. Interesting. The plot thickens...

  • Thread starter mattikake
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782
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
How interesting. I was in TJCgaming's lobby. Had a good race with his resident alien but I couldn't overtake because the lag was unplayable... but on TJC"s stream there was no lag at all.

I was expecting to see me lagging from his pov but it was super smooth.

I'm on a PS4 with 70Mb up/15Mb down. TJC is on ps5 but I don't know his ISP speed.

So although I don't buy the cross platform thing (because PC games have no issues and technically every single PC is of a different spec and is effectively all cross platform) maybe the cross platform issue has some weight?

See evidence below.



@ 1:55:00

Maybe it's to do with the different OS on ps4 and ps5? In which case there will probably never be a fix :(
 
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1,607
United Kingdom
UK
YT__TJCGAMING
How interesting. I was in TJCgaming's lobby. Had a good race with his resident alien but I couldn't overtake because the lag was unplayable... but on TJC"s stream there was no lag at all.

I was expecting to see me lagging from his pov but it was super smooth.

I'm on a PS4 with 70Mb up/15Mb down. TJC is on ps5 but I don't know his ISP speed.

So although I don't buy the cross platform thing (because PC games have no issues and technically every single PC is of a different spec and is effectively all cross platform) maybe the cross platform issue has some weight?

Maybe it's to do with the different OS on ps4 and ps5? In which case there will probably never be a fix :(
Hey matey, just by chance came across your post. It's me TJ, and your video is an eye opener on my lobby quality for PS4 users. Liked and subbed of course 🙂

My ISP is TalkTalk in the UK. After moving house I get slightly lower speeds due to my new house being slightly off a main road, instead of having the cables run alongside it.

My download speed is only 30Mbs and my upload is 6Mbps. I've had to significantly alter my bitrate and settings due to this to make it smooth in 1080P/60FPS.

You are not alone with your experience in lobbies with a PS4. Dizze says the game lag he gets on the PS4 in my lobbies is just like yours, almost impossible to play.

When streaming, I use 80% of my upload speed. This only leaves 20% for game allocation, I.E. How my car appears to you on track. Download speed, in this instance, is used to show on your screen where the cars are and how smooth they are.

Your ISP is clearly not the issue. My ISP is not either, since how all, or most cars in the lobby for me are smooth.

So, in my opinion at least, as I am not a tech guy, the only defining factor must be the connections between the PS4 and PS5. This is something that Polyphony are crystal clear on. As they separate PS4 and PS5 players in daily races. But not in Nations and Manufacturer.. Interestingly.

My theory is, and I have made videos about the problems between the 2 consoles racing against each other on the channel, that PD are only using dedicated servers for Nations and Manufacturers. Dailies and lobbies seem to be peer to peer connections only.

And this is why I think they separated the 2 consoles for dailies. This exact issue.
The gameplay I experience with both consoles is fine on PS5 online, in both their view and in mine on the PS5. We need to get more PS4 players opinions on how they are also. Because that amount of lag is not acceptable.

It may be that the best way to play the game is on the 5. And that's not our faults. It's theirs for making a PS5 game, and turning it into a cross gen title with literally zero experience on how to do so.

My best advice would be to pick up a PS5. A bit easier to get now but still have to play the lottery on them, so to say.

I have 3 PS5s here, so it's definitely possible to get one.

Good to see your post. Was great having you with us today

TJC GAMING
 
782
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How do?

The problem for me is I've already bought a gt dd pro for GT7. Must I also get a [hard to get hold of] ps5 just in order to get a playable game?

And why wasn't this a prerequisite for the purchase of GT7 and more importantly, why isn't this an official statement from PD/Sony? And where the **** are PD on this situation?

If that was what is required before I bought a fanatec, just please let us know.

If they can sort out the dead ffb I think I'm half way there on this evidence.
 
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453
Germany
Germany
Leiwulong
yoo Leiwulong here ;)
im on ps5 and there is no probs in Tjc lobby or better sayed agaisnt tjc. The prob is defenetly ps4 vs ps5. 15 ps5 and only 1 ps4 is enough to crash a lobby or make it laggy. Its time to split both consols completly. On ps4 its a way to much streched engine seen also after the last update how often the ps4 crashed and the ps5 version is to much turned down to fit the ps4 for online.

Even cd project with cyberpunk realise it and release new conten only for ps5/xboxX
We are already 2 yeahrs on ps5 and we still get crossgen games.

It is time for next/current gen only.
 
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1,607
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YT__TJCGAMING
How do?

The problem for me is I've already bought a gt dd pro for GT7. Must I also get a [hard to get gold of] ps5 just in order to get a playable game?

And why wasn't this a prerequisite for the purchase of GT7 and more importantly, why isn't this an official statement from PD/Sony? And where the **** are PD on this situation?

If that was what is required before I bought a fanatec, just please let us know.

If they can sort out the dead ffb I think I'm half way there ontl this evidence.
It's a very unfortunate situation, and like I say, I do not think you're alone. You've spent a lot of money in preparation for the game. And if I was you I would absolutely feel the same way.

I put a good amount of time and effort to grab a PS5, exclusively to play and stream GT. I went from the base PS4 straight to the 5 and I was blown away by how fast it loaded and the graphics. PS4 Pro users would see less of a step, but I saw ALOT.

Sadly it seems Polyphony have made the decision to cross gen the game due to scarcity of the PS5 and saw potential game sales go down the drain. Hence the announcement before launch to cross gen on 3 machines, with the other 2 being down on processing power.

I did see these issues coming, and I do not like how PS4 players have been treated. Maybe I should do some investigation into this. I have a small channel, maybe I should make another video about the issue to try and get to the bottom of it.

If you do upgrade to a PS5 you will love the game even more. I absolutely agree with you that you shouldn't have to to get the same experience as me. I fully empathise.
 
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782
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Here's me thinking they just could've used this as a means to LAUNCH the ps5. Instead tlthey scammed ps4 users out of their money for sales numbers.

If they need us to have a ps5 just say so! I'd have been there 4 months ago!
 
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1,607
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YT__TJCGAMING
yoo Leiwulong here ;)
im on ps5 and there is no probs in Tjc lobby or better sayed agaisnt tjc. The prob is defenetly ps4 vs ps5. 15 ps5 and only 1 ps4 is enough to crash a lobby or make it laggy. Its time to split both consols completly. On ps4 its a way to much streched engine seen also after the last update how often the ps4 crashed and the ps5 version is to much turned down to fit the ps4 for online.

Even cd project with cyberpunk realise it and release new conten only for ps5/xboxX
We are already 2 yeahrs on ps5 and we still get crossgen games.

It is time for next/current gen only.
Hey mate. Good to see you. You may well be right. They do that for dailies, so it only seems logical. But again, they'd be screwing over PS4 players. As that's not a cross gen game... If it cannot cross gen.

They really have a lot of explaining to do. What a way to split a community....
 
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1,607
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YT__TJCGAMING
Here's me thinking they just could've used this as a means to LAUNCH the ps5. Instead tlthey scammed ps4 users out of their money for sales numbers.

If they need us to have a ps5 just say so! I'd have been there 4 months ago!
That's why I was bemused about their announcement to also have it ported onto the PS4. It was announced as, and I assume, built for the PS5 from the get go. They claimed it was a simple case of just turning down the graphics to make it a cross gen game. But that doesn't make much sense to me, as the PS5 does everything much faster... There's no parity there.
 
19
United Kingdom
Dronfield / UK
Dtech-snr
Hello tjc and mittikake, an interesting thread - this reply is from a non-techie PS4 player who cannot play GT7 multiplayer for exactly the reason shown in mittikake's 1st video clip, and who, as part of a small group of 4 long term 'friends' on Gran Turismo have reverted to racing online GT Sport
I, too, am with TalkTalk, 30Mbs down and 6Mbs up - we 4 are all on PS4, and all having experienced that Laaag issue we've opened lobbies for just us 4 players, and so we've had no PS4 / PS5 mix. We've all tried being the host under these conditions, with just the same Laaaag problem

'Friends' who use PS5 and GT7 tell me they have the same Laaag problem, although I cannot verify that they play PS5 players only

Again, please, non technical, but for us, all on PS4 and GT7, we can't play it because of this issue - 2 using G29 and 2 using pad
 
453
Germany
Germany
Leiwulong
@TJC_69

Thats right m8. Thats why i think split first so ps4 can play it too. Turn down resolution and alpha effects so it can run better.

And for ps5 use the full power and go nativ 4k60 with raytracing and all the stuff.

At the end they lost more with there decision and lost a lot of reputation.
 
1,607
United Kingdom
UK
YT__TJCGAMING
Hello tjc and mittikake, an interesting thread - this reply is from a non-techie PS4 player who cannot play GT7 multiplayer for exactly the reason shown in mittikake's 1st video clip, and who, as part of a small group of 4 long term 'friends' on Gran Turismo have reverted to racing online GT Sport
I, too, am with TalkTalk, 30Mbs down and 6Mbs up - we 4 are all on PS4, and all having experienced that Laaag issue we've opened lobbies for just us 4 players, and so we've had no PS4 / PS5 mix. We've all tried being the host under these conditions, with just the same Laaaag problem

'Friends' who use PS5 and GT7 tell me they have the same Laaag problem, although I cannot verify that they play PS5 players only

Again, please, non technical, but for us, all on PS4 and GT7, we can't play it because of this issue - 2 using G29 and 2 using pad
Hi dfrog. Good to hear your experience, but not good that it's the same issue as Mattikake's.

Interesting how even the PS4s are all having connection issues. Have you tried to lobby race together again after the recent 1.23 patch?

We don't know much about the tweaks they make in these patches. Although we do have the undocumented changes thread on GT Planet to give us more information on what us, the players find.
 
1,607
United Kingdom
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YT__TJCGAMING
Why couldn't they simply say "you can play on ps4 but it will be a bit crap, but if you play in ps5 it will be superb"

That's all they had to do.
That wouldn't do their sales figures much good though. And well.. Sony has to say GT7 sold well 🤨

@TJC_69

Thats right m8. Thats why i think split first so ps4 can play it too. Turn down resolution and alpha effects so it can run better.

And for ps5 use the full power and go nativ 4k60 with raytracing and all the stuff.

At the end they lost more with there decision and lost a lot of reputation.
Absolutely. I feel the PS5 version has so much more to give in terms of game performance and in game resolution and ray tracing. It's definitely nerfed in my opinion due to their cross play decision.
 
782
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Also here's also funny thing - when I look at my replay when it scrolls through the lineup of the grid in my ps4 it's running at about 10fps and looks really jerky but on the footage replay AND the yt upload it's smooth at 50fps or more. How can that be?
 
19
United Kingdom
Dronfield / UK
Dtech-snr
Hi tjc, we haven't yet tried to race together since 1.23, but we will be together tomorrow evening, Monday 3rd Oct, and we'll try it out then - will post the result after that
thanks for your contributions
 
1,607
United Kingdom
UK
YT__TJCGAMING
Also here's also funny thing - when I look at my replay when it scrolls through the lineup of the grid in my ps4 it's running at about 10fps and looks really jerky but on the footage replay AND the yt upload it's smooth at 50fps or more. How can that be?
That doesn't sound pleasant. This makes me wish I kept a PS4 here to try out the PS4 version for myself. But we sold all 3 of them when we upgraded. I shouldn't have done that 🙃

Edit: This is a video I made a few months ago about this exact problem.


Hi tjc, we haven't yet tried to race together since 1.23, but we will be together tomorrow evening, Monday 3rd Oct, and we'll try it out then - will post the result after that
thanks for your contributions
Sounds good. Let us know what you find 👍

Edit: One possible solution to help peer to peer in lobbies would be adding an option to have PS4 or PS5 only, as Lei Wu Long suggested. I think that would help, but again, it's not going to be a cross generation game unless the main causes can be fixed. Can they be? I do not think so at this point.
 
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@TJC_69
In a discussion on a league discord I said this "i can now absolutely conclude it is NOT due to MY Internet speed. If mine was slow, I would be lagging on his screen too. No matter how fast a ps5 it can't "make up" data. If there are holes in the data, there are holes in the position at the recipients end - lag. But if the recipient is getting no lag [and that data cannot be "made up"] then this means only one thing - the data is being sent AND it is being received without delay.

Also this means there is no issue with the ps4's ability to send the data. It is therefore not a processing power issue."

Which makes me wonder, given you were the host and that your Internet connection isn't very fast, maybe something wasn't fast enough for my ps4 causing lag for other players at my end? That needs to be tested...
 

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
80,241
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
Internet speed ... your Internet connection isn't very fast
Internet "speed" is a misnomer: it's not speed, it's width.

How "fast" you receive data is capped at the speed of light (actually a little slower, but not much). Your internet connection "speed" isn't how quickly data comes in but how much of it comes in at once.

If it helps you imagine it better, imagine you have autonomous cars running as close as possible down a 70mph, two-lane dual carriageway*. The cars - or data - always come in at 70mph, but they come at you in twos because the road width - or bandwidth - is two lanes. Upgrade to a 70mph, three-lane motorway and the speed remains 70mph but you get cars in threes.

This is how it works with internet connections. Your data comes at you at just about the speed of light, but it can come at you down a 56 kilobit-wide pipe (56kbps), a one megabit-wide pipe (1Mbps), a 75 megabit-wide pipe (75Mbps), a gigabit-wide pipe (1Gbps)... and so on.

I haven't checked GT7, but previous Gran Turismo games - and honestly most multiplayer games - don't need much more than 0.5Mbps up or down. You're sending and receiving vehicle telemetry data, not video.

A 30Mbps connection, unless five people are streaming Netflix (other on-demand video channels are also available) in HD over the same connection at the same time or two people are playing Google Stadia (not for much longer) in HD, is more than enough for GT7.

What's far more important is latency - the time, in milliseconds, taken to send data to the device receiving it and receiving the data back from that device - and it's this that causes "laaaag". In fact it is "laaaag". That and having a shoddily configured internal network, which adds several milliseconds to latency too.

Hence that pinned thread I always direct people to before they kick off at me for daring to help, then tell me they shouldn't have to optimise their internal network because they have 1Gbps fibre and it's good enough for 4K Netflix.


*Also widely misunderstood; a dual carriageway is a road where the two carriageways - your side and the other side - are separated by a physical barrier, and can have any number of lanes. A road with multiple lanes each side but not separated (dualled) is a single carriageway.
 
453
Germany
Germany
Leiwulong
Key word is ping, the time the server and the console communicate together. Mb its good for how quick you can download something.

In sportsmode you can test the ping. Sometimes it works sometimes not.
I have for instent 12ms ping.
Up to 50ms is more or less ok everything above it starts more and more to lag.


Ps:
Should reed youre post above 🤣
Its all said.
Plus its a combo of latency, wich consol, and also how many people ride youre network, all adds latency, 4khdr netflix eats up to 18mb and adds also latency etc etc
 
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YT__TJCGAMING
@TJC_69
In a discussion on a league discord I said this "i can now absolutely conclude it is NOT due to MY Internet speed. If mine was slow, I would be lagging on his screen too. No matter how fast a ps5 it can't "make up" data. If there are holes in the data, there are holes in the position at the recipients end - lag. But if the recipient is getting no lag [and that data cannot be "made up"] then this means only one thing - the data is being sent AND it is being received without delay.

Also this means there is no issue with the ps4's ability to send the data. It is therefore not a processing power issue."

Which makes me wonder, given you were the host and that your Internet connection isn't very fast, maybe something wasn't fast enough for my ps4 causing lag for other players at my end? That needs to be tested...
Peer to peer doesn't rely on the hosts data to have a smooth experience for all. All the users internet connections link up to form what you experience in the lobby, as it alleviates the burden from the hosts ISP. I could be running absolutely potato internet and you'd not be affected in any way whatsoever. Only I would have any lag effects.

With that being the case, in your clip, PH4 is on a PS5, you are on PS4. PH4 is in Australia and lags to you. PH4 does not lag to me whatsoever, and your internet is faster. I am also on PS5 just like PH4.

Can you spot the variable in the equation here? It's not internet related whatsoever. It's equipment.

Edit: At 1:22.41 in my stream someone typed in chat that you were lagging alot if you remember? Just noticed this as I was watching back the Watkins Glen Short race. If you were lagging to them, is that personal lag, (did your internet have some throttling issues at that time, unbeknownst to you as you were racing), or is it just machine dependant? This is the mystery of GT7.

I make sure that I reset my router before every GT7 stream that I do. As my ISP has a weird habit of throttling if I don't. I learnt that the hard way in my early days of hosting 🤣
 
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367
Canada
Canada
Zero_to_oblivion
I've been hovering over this thread for a few days, even wrote up a nice slab of text to explain what Famine has done.

There are a few different factors that could go into the issue, chiefly latency.

I agree with the comments that it can't be as simple as cross-gen being the culprit, as pointed out by Famine the data packets are small, and it is just vehicle telemetry that is exchanged. If your game engine is capable of receiving the telemetry, and it should be as it should be the same engine between PS4 and PS5 (remember Kaz said the engine is scalable), then that shouldn't be an issue.

I personally lean closer to it being a latency issue, and how the consoles handle poor latency.

The game is always checking and updating your vehicles location, direction and speed, and reporting the information to everyone else in the lobby. This is the telemetry. High/Poor latency means that your console can't report the telemetry quick enough to other consoles, for those consoles to accurately render the vehicle on track. To compensate, the game can predict where your vehicle should be based on where it was. If your telemetry data then comes through and is correct, great! If it isn't correct to where the game predicted you'd be, everyone else will see you teleport as the game corrects it's rendering. To you however, you're unlikely to see a difference.

I think the issue lies somewhere in this prediction model - it may be that due to coding, the PS4 isn't able to predict as accurately as the PS5 in cross-gen lobbies, resulting in PS5 players seeing no issues while the PS4 racers get teleported all over the place.

This is speculation of course, and shouldn't be considered fact. I just hope PD can remedy the issue.
 
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1,607
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YT__TJCGAMING
it may be that due to coding
I wish I still had a PS4 to test this for myself. I agree the problem is inherent and lies within here. I just knew I had to have this game on the PS5, not for vanity reasons, but that last gen and new gen combining for a racing game sounded like bad news to me. Luckily I had the motivation and foresight to do just that.

Do you feel that it can be fixed? Or have all the PS4 users got to upgrade to have a good experience on GT7 in your opinion?

I guess that Sony can claim that the game upgrade is just that, an upgrade. But I sure wouldn't be playing this on the 4 if these issues are their end product. The latest GT update made lobbies much better for me on the 5. Super into GT again because of this and it feels great to play for the first time.
 
367
Canada
Canada
Zero_to_oblivion
Do you feel that it can be fixed? Or have all the PS4 users got to upgrade to have a good experience on GT7 in your opinion?
This is where the frustration is - yes, it should be able to be fixed.

If you can have games that play across platforms (PS, Xbox, Switch, PC) that have no latency issues due to platform, then you should definitely be able to have cross-gen also with no issues. It is just small data packets after all.

To speak to possible hardware upgrades, I think the late decision to make it available for last gen was a decision counter to the point - if Sony wanted to use GT7 to push people to PS5, they would have not pushed for it to be on PS4 to begin with. Granted, at the time PS5s were very hard to get a hold of, which played a part in the decision, so initially maybe the intent was PS5 upgrades, but I don't think current issue itself is a push.

It may also be that late decision that resulted in the issues - if PD had all that time to build network code purely for PS5, and then had to modify it to fit the PS4s older hardware/modem, the quick edits may have resulted in bad code leading to the current problem.
 
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1,607
United Kingdom
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YT__TJCGAMING
This is where the frustration is - yes, it should be able to be fixed.

If you can have games that play across platforms (PS, Xbox, Switch, PC) that have no latency issues due to platform, then you should definitely be able to have cross-gen also with no issues. It is just small data packets after all.

To speak to possible hardware upgrades, I think the late decision to make it available for last gen was a decision counter to the point - if Sony wanted to use GT7 to push people to PS5, they would have not pushed for it to be on PS4 to begin with. Granted, at the time PS5s were very hard to get a hold of, which played a part in the decision, so initially maybe the intent was PS5 upgrades, but I don't think current issue itself is a push.

It may also be that late decision that resulted in the issues - if PD had all that time to build network code purely for PS5, and then had to modify it to fit the PS4s older hardware/modem, the quick edits may have resulted in bad code leading to the current problem.
Good insight. I agree with that.