LeMONS to LeMANS Season 3 [Wednesday]

  • Thread starter Thread starter chuyler1
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BTK
Also trail braking, do you mean braking while turning in?
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Yeah. Basically gradually decreasing braking up until the apex of a turn.
 
Bowtie, I see your point...and I think we arrive at the same result two different ways. You are running high rear bias to keep weight off the front tires therefore inducing understeer when you finally do turn in. I am running higher front bias but overall lower settings to keep the rear tires cool on entry.

Your method may work fine with the controller but it will not work with a wheel + trail braking. With rear biased brakes on a MR or FR car, if I so much as have the wheel turned 5 degrees when I start braking the rear end will step out and the rear tires will go red almost instantly. Great for drifting, not so great for endurance racing.

I don't want to argue whether your approach works for controller drivers...I'm just saying it simply does not work with a wheel.
 
You don't brake and turn. That's waisted momentum, and that means your theory of braking is whack. You're not only forcing heat, but also forcing weight onto the front tires, which means you understeer out.

Race Car 101:

*Brake before Entering a Turn
*Do not spin tires if not necessary
*Do not overcorrect a car
 
Ok, thanks for helping me make my point.
 
It was my understanding that trail braking is not meant to induce understeer. It is meant to induce grip on the front tires to correct understeer. It is like putting front downforce on the car.
 
Well, it might work for you all, I'm just telling you it's not right.

/End Argument.
 
BTK
Also trail braking, do you mean braking while turning in?
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yes brake hard at first then ease of as you enter the corner (helps keep the car stable as suspention rebounds )

hope this helps??
 
http://f1-dictionary.110mb.com/advanced_braking.html

In 4-wheel vehicles trail braking pertains to using the brakes past the corner entrance (as opposed to the normally taught practice of releasing the brakes before starting the turn). This practice is used for creating weight transfer towards the front tires, thus increasing their traction and reducing understeer. It works best in light vehicles that have their brake bias to the front. Once a driver has mastered trail braking, it can help enter the corners at higher speeds, or avoid an accident if the driver has entered a corner at a speed exceeding the car or driver capabilities.

Opponents of trail braking claim that because of the steep learning curve trail braking is or should be an exclusively race track or racing technique. However, proponents of trail braking believe that knowing and understanding how to slow while entering a corner gives the rider a greater safety margin, particularly in blind, decreasing radius or downhill corners.

The technique works great for almost all the vehicles in GT5 that we drive regularly. The only exception is the heavy muscle cars which require more straight line braking. In some cases, I might not run the fastest lap...but I am one of the most consistent drivers out there because of this technique and it allows me to constantly adjust my entry speed depending on how much grip is left on my tires.
 
BTK
Well, it might work for you all, I'm just telling you it's not right.
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Well, I think I trust these people more when it comes to what is right and not. There are dozen of other sites with pretty much the same information.

I do agree that with a DS3, in a video game, it may break some rules. But for actual racing (not NASCAR), I think it is just another option.

p.s. I posted as Huyler did, and he has yet another site linked.
 
has anyone done some practice with there modded car at fuji yet ,
some lap times would breed some competition between the ones closest together,

did 5 or so laps with a best of 2'08.xxx

the ones who have the most money to spend will be fastest?(spend wisely)
 
Well, as most vehicles in real life weigh as much as the Muscle cars do in GT5, I think you'll learn that the only cars you ever trail brake are REAL race cars with REAL suspension. So, you'll find that you are going to burn up brake pads, and be slower. <---- For Chuyler


You can trust those guys if would like, no one has to listen to anything I say. Also, if it was better for you garris I highly doubt you would finish behind Cujo every race.<---- Garris

If there was a competition for copy and pasting information, you guys would beat EVERYONE. Stop reading Car and Driver, and take it from someone who has a racing background.

End of conversation you all have a nice labor day weekend.
 
jamesybograt
has anyone done some practice with there modded car at fuji yet ,
some lap times would breed some competition between the ones closest together,

did 5 or so laps with a best of 2'08.xxx

the ones who have the most money to spend will be fastest?(spend wisely)
Click to expand...

Someone is actually talking about the series! To answer: Yes, I have practiced. Your time is going to leave you starting 9-12 on grid, but with the draft you should be fine.
 
Vol Jbolaz
Well, I think I trust these people more when it comes to what is right and not. There are dozen of other sites with pretty much the same information.

I do agree that with a DS3, in a video game, it may break some rules. But for actual racing (not NASCAR), I think it is just another option.

p.s. I posted as Huyler did, and he has yet another site linked.
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interesting site and yes they are right , but as i said i trail brake in real life because i can feel what the car/bike is doing under me .
i use it to stop suspention rebound up to the apex then its power all the way out.

as a old instructor of mine said dont plant the gas until you know you will keep it on (sir Jackie Stewart).
 
BTK
Well, as most vehicles in real life weigh as much as the Muscle cars do in GT5, I think you'll learn that the only cars you ever trail brake are REAL race cars with REAL suspension. So, you'll find that you are going to burn up brake pads, and be slower. <---- For Chuyler


You can trust those guys if would like, no one has to listen to anything I say. Also, if it was better for you garris I highly doubt you would finish behind Cujo every race.<---- Garris

If there was a competition for copy and pasting information, you guys would beat EVERYONE. Stop reading Car and Driver, and take it from someone who has a racing background.

End of conversation you all have a nice labor day weekend.
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I do agree that GT doesn't model brakes very well. In GT2, you could upgrade your brakes. I understand the arguments against that. The brakes can stop the car, making them better isn't going to stop the car any more. In the real world though, you upgrade brakes to fight fade, and fade isn't modeled in GT.

That isn't an argument against trail braking.

As to my performance, just because I understand something, doesn't mean I'm any good at it. Part of it is that I don't have much practice or enough time to get as much practice as I'd like. Part of it is the driving-through-a-shadow-box thing that I hate.

There are loads of things that I completely understand. I understand how to drift. I understand the physics behind an ollie and a kick flip, too (rigid bodies do not rotate freely about their median axis). Understanding something doesn't imply mastery.

Aside from that, I would say you are entirely too young to have "background". Though, I think a more accurate way to put that would be, a background does not imply mastery. (And yes, you are faster than me, but Huyler is faster than you, so I'm not sure what that says.)

As to Cujo, yeah, I don't get it either. He can and does wreck constantly and still manages to get around faster than me.


jamesybograt
has anyone done some practice with there modded car at fuji yet ,
some lap times would breed some competition between the ones closest together,

did 5 or so laps with a best of 2'08.xxx

the ones who have the most money to spend will be fastest?(spend wisely)
Click to expand...

diabolicwyvern
Someone is actually talking about the series! To answer: Yes, I have practiced. Your time is going to leave you starting 9-12 on grid, but with the draft you should be fine.
Click to expand...

I have 20,000 Cr. to spend, and with that, I've only managed a 2:10. I am epically rubbish.
 
Vol Jbolaz
I have 20,000 Cr. to spend, and with that, I've only managed a 2:10. I am epically rubbish.
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You should be okay though. If you have decent top end but are poor in the corners, the straight draft will keep you in the race. I think you have a chance to start the race very similar to last seasons le mans here if you can start high enough on the grid. Draft up to front and have a decent 1st lap. Be close enough to leaders to make turn 1/lap 2 in the lead and then hold on. Rinse and repeat till pit.
 
Never did I say I was the Master of all Race cars, and as for your comment on being to young too have a background:

1. Been driving a stick since I was 12.
2. Been racing since I was 14.

Also:
ownedpi.png



I have more that I can take pictures of if you need it.

Good lord, you need to take some Valium, and if you ever come through Kentucky, and would like me to show you my background, I would be obliged.

Demo Derby time, get my redneck on.
 
BTK
Never did I say I was the Master of all Race cars, and as for your comment on being to young too have a background:

1. Been driving a stick since I was 12.
2. Been racing since I was 14.

Also:
ownedpi.png



I have more that I can take pictures of if you need it.

Good lord, you need to take some Valium, and if you ever come through Kentucky, and would like me to show you my background, I would be obliged.

Demo Derby time, get my redneck on.
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NICE
my only claim to fame is i beat colin mc rea in a rally.
(Rhinns of galloway rally)
ps only wish i was in america! you cet the best V8s
 
diabolicwyvern
You should be okay though. If you have decent top end but are poor in the corners, the straight draft will keep you in the race. I think you have a chance to start the race very similar to last seasons le mans here if you can start high enough on the grid. Draft up to front and have a decent 1st lap. Be close enough to leaders to make turn 1/lap 2 in the lead and then hold on. Rinse and repeat till pit.
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I'm not bummed about it, but I don't think I'll be able to keep up with the pack though through the last set of corners, so I think I'll be out of the draft quickly (as I was at Laguna Seca).

To make up for my towering ineptitude will require more than 20,000. Again, I'll be competitive by the last race and I'll have fun in the mean time.

I'll count it as a victory if I can not wreck again. I would like to finish 9th, if I can, but I'm not expecting that. Everyone behind me at Laguna Seca wrecked. I imagine the only people behind me at Fuji will be those that wreck.

BTK
Never did I say I was the Master of all Race cars, and as for your comment on being to young too have a background:
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Ohnoes! The pictures!

I think you just said my point, though. You don't have mastery of all race cars. I'm just saying that your statement that trail braking was breaking the rules is wrong. I think trail braking is another tool and is completely valid if used in the right setting.

Honestly, I don't understand how Huyler uses trail braking in something as twitchy as an MR-2. Maybe he doesn't. If your Fairlady is that twitchy, I wouldn't use it either.

I have a Zonda that I enjoy in some A-Spec races, and I can not be on the brakes at all when I turn. It will swap ends.

But my Varietta understeers. It is a FR that understeers on entrance (and if I floor it, it will oversteer on exit). I'm not good at it, yet, but I'm trying to use the brakes lightly to tame the understeer. Usually what I do is enter the corner entirely too slow.

As to the original discussion about brake balance, I haven't done it on the Varietta, but on other FR cars, I favor the front to keep the back end from locking up and stepping out. The Varietta is relatively stable under braking.

Again, I completely understand all the ideas behind all of this. I know what I need to do and why. I'm just not good at actually doing it.

Actually, I've never found anything that I'm actually good at now that I think about it. But, I enjoy this, so I do it.

"If you don't enjoy it while losing, then you don't really enjoy it."
 
But my Varietta understeers. It is a FR that understeers on entrance (and if I floor it, it will oversteer on exit). I'm not good at it, yet, but I'm trying to use the brakes lightly to tame the understeer. Usually what I do is enter the corner entirely too slow.

the only advice i can give is the old adage slow in fast out .
but what is your cars weight balance front to rear .
i find sometimes that extra weight to give a good balance of 50/50 is worth it in time gained in the race.
 
jamesybograt
the only advice i can give is the old adage slow in fast out .
but what is your cars weight balance front to rear .
i find sometimes that extra weight to give a good balance of 50/50 is worth it in time gained in the race.
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And I tend to do the slow-in-fast-out with too much slow.

I haven't looked at adjusting the weight. I can try that. I imagine the limit is moreso with me than with the car. For Laguna Seca, all three of us between the Tuesday and Wednesday nights took the same weight reduction 1 and window weight reduction. I was several seconds slower than the other Variettas.
 
BTK, different driving styles doesn't make one right and the other wrong. I've found trail braking to work excellently in real life in my car, and that definitely isn't a real race car. The most it's got done to it is some beefy sway bars. I also left foot brake, even in a manual if I don't need to be using the clutch.

People can drive however they want, I just think theres more potential to go faster (in any car) when you get past "traditional" techniques.

Nice trophies by the way. Wish I had the cash to get out on a proper track.
 
I just ran some laps at fuji with both 5/4 and 3/7. Best lap times are about the same, but i was less consistent with 3/7...on numerous occasions i would cook the rear tires before mid corner causing me to drift the hairpins. However after some practice i can see how it works. The car basically turnes itself and if you apply any additional steering input, the car will oversteer. If i were using a controller i'd love this setup because you can basically steer with the brake pedal and a few taps of the arrows...but with a wheel it becomes unstable. To each his own i guess.
 
None of you have my copy of Gran Turismo 2 do you? I felt like going old school for a change. Wished we could have an online version of it for PS3. That would be epic.
 
Its in my other pants BTK...
 
Well I want it back, so next time you do your laundry let me know.
 
You can prolly find it at GameStop on thte used rack for $5. I got GT4 for about that much.
 
We don't have a gamestop for over 45 miles. Lol.
 
It's beyond the cow patch, through the Knotty Wood, over the frog pond and under the rainbow!
 
I found an unopened(!) copy of GT2 at a local Gamestop a few years ago. That was quite a find.
 
why GT2 btw? Whats so good about that one compared to GT1, or 3 ?
 
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