Let's discuss original track design & designation.

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by MIE1992, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Idk about you but that looks like it'd be a lot of fun to drive on, at least within GT. As far as Fuji in general goes, I wouldn't mind seeing the 90's layout returning, nor the 80's layout, potentially alongside the 90's version.
     
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  2. MMX

    MMX Premium

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    Yeah Fuji is a snooze fest, that old layout looks like it'd be much more fun.

    I'm a big fan of PD original tracks, most of them are fun. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever enjoyed a Tokyo based city track, and definitely don't like the current ones. Then again, I don't really like city tracks in general.

    Sardegna A reverse has been my number 1 pick for a PD original track in GTS. Really like that track.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  3. Satomiblood

    Satomiblood

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    I've been a pretty staunch supporter of St. Croix B, but I have to say that it's taken me a little over a year, and a recent Gr.1 endurance event, to make me appreciate the A/C layouts.
     
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  4. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    From what I’ve read in the comments of that video, you can thank Hermann “I love Ctrl + Z” Tilke for the “upgrade” to Fuji. (Is there nobody else working in that field? It’s like Tilke alone has a monopoly.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  5. twitcher

    twitcher

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    From its original layout, Fuji has gone through 4 or 5 significant changes to its layout, Tilke only did the most recent one, which really only consisted of adding the complex of corners at the end of the lap. First Corner, Coke-a-Cola, 100R, Hairpin Corner, and the Dunlop Chicane we’re already part of the track layout going back to the 90s, even 80s.

    I actually really like Fuji, even with the latest upgrades. The 3 sectors are really different from one another, which really forces compromises in car setup. Also, to me, each of the sectors sort of represents a different aspect of Japanese racing culture - the long front straight pays homage to the top speed tuners of the 70s through 90s, the second sector has some really nice fast corners like a proper circuit should, and the third sector is kind of a nod to the mountain roads and Toge of Japan.

    Whenever I watch a race at Fuji it’s almost always an exciting race.
     
  6. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    I mean, I like Fuji, too, but man, that older version looks like it'd be a blast, especially with anachronistic cars like the Super GT racers...
     
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  7. Satomiblood

    Satomiblood

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    Older versions of real world circuits would be great. I'd especially love an old Monza layout.
     
  8. PaMu1337

    PaMu1337

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    To be honest, CanAm was madness regardless of the track.
     
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  9. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    We got the 80's layout, didn't we? I can't recall if that layout had the older banked turn, but if it didn't, then I'd love for that historical layout to also be added.
     
  10. GTR365

    GTR365 Premium

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    I will change that neglect. I love Sierra & miss it more than any other past track. It *must* come back.

    I no longer race; so my viewpoint differs from the racers. After 20 years of GT, I enjoy just cruising with other drivers. I drove greater than 50K miles in GT6 at Sierra alone & nearly 250K overall. So far in GTS, I've logged greater than 100k miles.

    For our versions of some of the best original tracks, the Track Path Editor also is a feature which I feel is very worthy of revival. We spent so much time driving on 16 mile long winding undulating tracks in the Andalusia environment which resembled roads; just no intersecting roads & few signs of civilization.

    I recognize the limitations in ambiance. I'm OK with feeling like I'm the last driver on earth & with nothing existing 1000 feet beyond the track limits other than mountains 20 miles out & clouds in a sky. My greatest joy is in driving. I'm eyeing the road (& other drivers :tup:) mostly, not the scenery. It does allow me opportunities to gain braking zone sightlines & refine driving lines for when I feel the need for speed.

    And ... can we get the return of the lunar environment? That was an open world (nearly), other worldly blast. Make the Ford Raptor available there & I think many would support its second coming.
     
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  11. Kevstah2004

    Kevstah2004

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    :confused::gtpflag:
    :banghead::banghead:
    They got rid of best Tilke track Malaysia :banghead:
    Monaco should be scrapped for Azerbaijan.

    I think somebody showed off a video that looked more of less similar to one of the original tracks Trial Mountain, Deep Forest or Grand Valley :confused:
     
  12. twitcher

    twitcher

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    Perhaps we’re in the minority, but I’m definitely in the same boat as you. Going back to GT5, I’ve put on 10s of thousands of Kms just cruising around tracks like SSR7 / Tokyo, Sierra, and many of the city tracks. Some of my favourite moments I’ve had in these games was just doing some high speed, enthusiastic cruising - not necessarily racing against people, just driving fast with other people. For these reasons, I definitely agree that GT needs a big “country road” circuit like Sierra, and I’d really love to see an open world version of the Tokyo circuits connected together (or the real Shutoku, but that’s a pipe dream at this point. Genki??).
     
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  13. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    I think Sierra would be great to return, but idk about SSR7, unless they really did consolidate all SSR layouts into a single free-world area. It seemed to be implied within SSR7 that they were all connected beyond general locale, with there being an exit sign pointing to another one of the layouts.
     
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  14. GTR365

    GTR365 Premium

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    JDM Wars_Roadsters.jpg
    Like this
     
  15. Greycap

    Greycap Premium

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    The Tokyo tracks are a good idea but the execution leaves things to be desired, especially with the Central versions. It tries to imitate the C1 Loop but it really should be twice as long - now it's just cramped and far too narrow for proper racing. East is more of what the Central should be (with the exception of the straight) and the South is perhaps the best executed version. Driven at night both the East and South also give strong SSR5 vibes, Central only makes me wish the race ended already.

    Although I didn't exactly like SSR7 there definitely is room for a Wangan wannabe track, with the PS4 having enough power to have a scenery other than flat black it could actually be enjoyable. And as the Bayshore Route is to the west of central Tokyo it's perhaps not a coincidence that we don't have a West layout yet.

    Other than the Tokyo subject, in my opinion the original tracks are mostly fine. Maggiore is a believable full-on race course, Blue Moon Bay is what superspeedway ovals tend to be, St Croix would be absolutely great if layout A didn't exist, Kyoto is a club track hidden somewhere in the mountains. Sardegna on the other hand is only good in its A version, the B feels like someone wanted to do a Tilke++ version of Barcelona and the C is just weird. Alsace is a total miss by all criteria and I'm probably in a very small minority but I don't like Dragon Trail Seaside one bit. Gardens is bearable, better in the other direction, but I've disliked Seaside since the first laps I drove on it. The washed out mountain background, the endless "right hairpin - accelerate - left/right chicane - accelerate - repeat" sequence, it does absolutely nothing for me. Many people consider it the best track in the GT history and I have zero idea how.
     
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  16. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    I agree that Dragon Trail Seaside is a bit overrated. Especially with the bus-stop. (I do like Gardens, though.) I think Alsace is still pretty fun, and I’m very sure additional layouts are coming to that locale, alongside Colorado Springs, as they’re the only original locales left without additional layouts but also having their current layouts follow the same name formats, versus the original courses that don’t have the same format, namely Fisherman’s Ranch, BB, and Northern Isle. (I also think Tokyo West and/or North could very well be a thing someday, too. I do hope we could see a Northern Isle infield, though.)
     
  17. Satomiblood

    Satomiblood

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    I feel that Dragon Trail (Seaside), Kyoto (Yamagiwa), and Lago Maggiore (GP) are, in some ways, the current gamer generation’s equivalent of the Holy Trinity. They’re solid tracks, but they do leave me pining for the original Holy Trinity’s return. The main thing for me is seeing them updated to today’s graphical standards. Like all of the other tracks currently in the game, they’d look nothing short of amazing.
     
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  18. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Hot take: I think some of those older original courses are overrated, and they'd need remarkable changes - much like a real circuit would undergo - to better facilitate online racing. I think Apricot Hill, however, is fine, and potentially Autumn Ring. (Meanwhile, Midfield seems a bit dull.) But classics like High Speed Ring, Trial Mountain, Deep Forest, Special Stage, and Grand Valley seem like they'd really need some serious updates. I mean, AFAIK, these courses were made for up to six cars in the PS1/PS2 era, not sixteen or otherwise larger fields we've seen since the PS3 era. I don't even think they really offer that much in scenery nor actual driving, at least when compared to some of the other GT-original courses (including city circuits) that've come since.

    I can see that hard right after that first tunnel at Trial Mountain being a real PitA in online races, with those rocks that are all around it, as well as the hill you can launch yourself off of that's just before the start/finish line.

    The best way I could see the revival of those three courses in particular, is by limiting the amount of cars that can be on-track to the same six as the original, and still making some changes for some corners, like that Trial Mountain turn. Adding more run-off areas where the geography would permit it - stuff like that. Otherwise I don't think it'll be fun, and that it'd mostly be the nostalgia talking.

    EDIT: I had a few more points.
    -A sizable amount of circuits from prior GT games seem like they'd be much better as point-to-point time attack stages, like Matterhorn from GT6, or the many circuits that only permitted two cars at a time in GT4, both tarmac and dirt. I think they're mostly terrible for racing.

    -PD may wanna take a look at how other games tackle original circuit designs set in real locales, like the NFS Shift series, the GRiD games (including the 2019 title), and the Project CARS series. I think that could help direction a lot. For one idea, I think they could potentially scrap Tokyo Expressway, but bring back both the Special Stage tracks (including R11, and also have some of them interconnected into new layouts) AND the real-world R246, and THEN also model more of the actual Tokyo highway layouts which could also connect to R246, like the Wangan line and so on.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  19. MMX

    MMX Premium

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    High Speed Ring was awesome for online racing in GT5/6. Plenty wide enough for a large pack, and easy enough where the racing was always tight. So many good times there.
    I can take or leave Trial Mountain, and Deep Forest. Had a lot of fun races there too, but they were never my first picks.
    Apricot Hill, and Autumn Ring provided some fun races too. By the time Midfield came back in GT6, I had gotten bored, and took a break, so didn't get the online experience with that track. I remember liking it in GT4 though.
     
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  20. Satomiblood

    Satomiblood

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    I don't really buy the "not good for online" take since a lot of tracks in GTS arguably have their share of problem areas. That falls more on the player element and less on the design. Any track, fiction or not, has the potential to be a nightmare, especially if the grid is comprised of inexperienced, reckless, and aggressive drivers. You can't discount the griefer element either. Combine all of those subgroups and you've got the makings of a disaster.

    My guess is that we'll see some safety features implemented such as additional barriers, run-off areas, etc., but I don't think they'd necessarily be bad with higher grid counts. If a notoriously tight track such as Horse Thief Mile can (barely) accommodate a 20-car grid, then I'm confident the aforementioned originals can work under the current landscape.
     
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  21. twitcher

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    Speaking of original tracks, the original layout of Rome Circuit that was in GT2, 3, and 4 is one of my favourite GT tracks ever. I was so sad when the changed it for GT5, the new layout doesn’t hold a candle to the old one in my opinion.



    Other than graphic updates and some minor adjustments to some of the curbs, I don’t think this layout would need many changes at all.
     
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  22. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Yeah. If they wanted to include both, they could call the PS3-era version “Circuito di Roma 2010,” with the older version being called “Circuito di Roma 1998” or whichever year the older layout debuted. A further idea would be to refer to Rome Night as “Circuito di Roma (Short).” Or just using A/B/C designations like for Sardegna & St. Croix, I think that’d be fine, too.

    I do like GTS’ take on how locales & layouts are arranged in menus, though. Like you’ll select “St. Croix,” and then you can pick a layout. Or if there’s just one, like with Interlagos or Mt. Panorama, you just get taken straight to the next option. (In GTS’ case, it’s the time of day & weather.)

    And did they change the names of the Fuji layouts in real life, too? Dropping the F & GT designations? I wonder why else GTS changed the layout names in a patch...

    I also wonder why they chose to set SSRX in the USA, rather than using a Polyphony Digital flag. Eh, whatever. But I think it could be neat, at least for some courses, to show where on a world map they’d be, much like we already see for the brands at Brand Central.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
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  23. Greycap

    Greycap Premium

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    It probably has something to do with the real Route 10 (properly called Interstate 10) that runs past the San Gorgonio Pass wind farm in California. The landscape and the tunnels on SSRX also strongly resemble those of the I-10 in its western parts.
     
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  24. gtpierre

    gtpierre

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    I can completely understand what you mean, basically you kind of want a GT horizon (which I would also be interested in) but I don't think you should expect this from GTS, nor from GT7.

    Back when I was playing GT4, I always liked driving both race cars and road cars on el capitan, gran canyon and these kind of scenic tracks.

    I always thought how cool would it be, if you could just drive fast different real cars in a cool places (mountains, city, US country roads, euro country roads, country dirtroads) with friends (or alone), but with a "realistic" physics (i.e. not GTA, not forza etc). I thought it existed when someone described forza horizon, but then I saw that the handling is lest realistic than that of any GTA game so...
     
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  25. F2X M3CSL

    F2X M3CSL

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    Hey Guys!

    It's been a while since my last post on gtplanet but this thread adresses a topic that really bugs me, namely PD's lack in consistency and the lack of immersion on some circuits. First of all I have to say that I'm in love with many of the GT Original tracks as I grew up with them.
    The older I get the more minor issues with some circuits break the immersion for me though. For example Dragon Trail: This circuit has an awesome flow to it and I really like the mediterranean setting, but the "Chicane of Death" ruins the whole circuit for me. There is no way a corner like this would be regarded as safe enough for racing in real life. It's just a gamble to get through there while flooring the paddle. Even in Top Split this chicane causes lots of trouble with cars crashing ghosting/unghosting and taking other cars out. It's not only really quick, it is also blind at exit and you can't take avoiding actions once you have committed to the corner. I don't understand why they decided to alter this corner after the GT Sport beta as it was a bit easier to navigate through there. A game focussed on competition should also feature tracks that are suitable for racing. There are similar issues with the Tokyo Expressway circuits. They are fun to drive in Time Attack, no doubt, but especially the Central ones aren't suited for racing at all. The Southern layouts are the best in my opinion but they can produce lots of carnage too.

    Circuits like Lago Maggiore on the other hand are great. The banked hairpin might be a bit exaggerated but I can live with that. As mentioned earlier in this thread circuits like Apricot Hill (especially the reworked GT6 version) and Autumn Ring are also up to this standard although Autumn Ring is more like a club circuit so cars above Gr.4 might not produce the best racing there. Both circuits would need minor adjustments to make people adhere to track limits in some corners but they wouldn't have to be completely redesigned. Therefore I'd really like to see them appear in GT Sport or future iterations of the franchise again.

    Speaking of circuits I would love to drive again ... Deep Forest and Trial Mountain have a special place in my heart as I drove thousands of kilometers there during my childhood. In my opinion it is the right decision though to not have them in the game in their current state. There is nothing wrong with the layout of these tracks. They have an awesome flow, undulations, bumps, banked corners, off camber corners, everything. Maybe they are a bit short but this issue could be solved easily by extending the circuits at one point with an additional loop and maybe a long straight plus a hard braking zone to generate an overtaking opportunity. Therefore we could have the original layout and a slightly extended "GP-Version" of the tracks.
    The setting on the other hand just isn't up to the standards of modern racing games anymore. As mentioned earlier in this thread these tracks just don't make any sense as they are a blend of 1950's circuits, open roads and modern circuits. So the setting would have to be reworked completely for both tracks. I wouldn't want PD to come up with a completely new scenery but they could get rid of (most of) the tunnels on both circuits, replace the natural barriers with armco barriers, concrete walls and catch fences, move the walls further away from the circuit in general to create some run-off areas, add service roads around the track, create a space for the paddock, etc.

    In general I can say that I really really like the original circuits, but in my opinion PD should focus on plausible tracks more especially with their FIA tie-in. Otherwise the franchise won't be taken seriously when people see cars driving on absurdities like Alsace, crashing in the "Chicane of Death", or flying through the air after the jump at Cape Ring.
    Realistic circuits don't need to be boring as Lago Maggiore, Apricot Hill and Sardegna B prove. So please PD, from the bottom of my heart, try to add more circuits where modern race cars don't look out of place without losing your creativity.

    Sorry for the long post :cheers:
     
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  26. twitcher

    twitcher

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    In some ways, yes I’d like to see a “GT Horizon”. I’m not super stuck on the idea of having a massive open world like in GTA, but some sort of location(s) for cruising, having car meets, etc. I still want GT to be about racing, but I’d like to see those other elements of car culture added in. Like you say, I’d like to be able to cruise with decent physics, and not resort to playing GTA. I sort of think of it like how in most MMO games that are about raiding dungeons and PvP battles, there’s still always the town square where people hang out and show off their stuff.
     
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  27. Satomiblood

    Satomiblood

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    I actually love the bus stop at Dragon Trail.
     
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  28. MatskiMonk

    MatskiMonk

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    Not that it makes good (though I don't mind it), but I always took it to be a rip off of Monaco's swimming pool... which is effectively very much endorsed by the FIA for the premiere racing series.

    Agreed on circuits like Deep Forest and Trial Mountain though. Unless they get turned into more plausible real world venues I'd almost rather they didn't return.
     
  29. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Here’s a compromise: I think we can look at the Monaco GP’s take on that chicane for inspiration, and if Dragon Trail took some of those elements, it’d get a lot less flak. Namely, instead of having the chicane on Seaside use solid walls, run-off areas (like at Monaco) would be used instead, where you may have less grip and incur a penalty if you drive right through it.

    I’d say this for a lot of “problematic” corners in various GT-original circuits, but I think they key is to find where the “natural” geography (within the GT-original locale) would also permit it. I recall geological constraints for expanding run-off areas at Spa is partially what led to the recent F2 tragedy. So for some places like Tokyo Expressway, I’m not sure what one can do, but for a place like Trial Mountain, I could see a lot more run-off area being added after that first tunnel, where you’re driving between the rocks. I think it’d also benefit if part of the last corner was fenced-off so players can’t launch themselves off the natural incline.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
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  30. pininvolante

    pininvolante

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    I hope to one day see El Capitan return.
    upload_2019-9-19_1-30-27.jpeg

    In terms of original tracks, I feel as if El Capitan gets overshadowed by courses such as Deep Forest and Trial Mountain (both of which are great tracks!). I really enjoyed the scenic nature of the track, and thinking back, it kinda reminded me of an ‘escape’; fresh air, roaring cars, and the serenity of the surrounding nature bundled together really cemented a place in my heart for the track.

    Another track I’d like to see return is Tahiti Maze. Complex, involving, and fun rallying on a tropical island was like a dream come true for my younger self.