Lets talk about handling

[fasj6418]

disclaimer: i searched for a specific thread about handling in GT5P but couldn't find one.

i reserved judgement before driving the majority of the cars, and before the tuning, but now might be a good time to discuss the new physics system.

i won't get into standard mode because i barely use it, but feel free to discuss. professional mode was suposed to be as realistic as possible.

did you guys feel that this was acomplished?

i won't lie just to look good: i've never had any track time and i'm a safe driver in real life, but still, i feel a tad disappointed with the handling of some cars in professional mode without a wheel.

i have a G25, it makes wonder for handling because you have a better imput control, but i will focus on a regular gameplay, because most people still play with the sixaxis.

up until now, racing purists would say that racing tires were unrealistic, you had to use sports tires to get closer to real life performance. now, while this is the case with the F1 car, i'm having little fun with some of the high performance cars in sports tires.

even racing tires sometimes are not enough!

driving in pro mode, with all aids off, sports tires. ok, brace yourself. driving a ford GT LM, aston martin DB9, an amuse S2000 or even the vette Z06, under those circunstances, is a pain. countersteering is so sensitive. grip feels like its close to zero.

its a change of gameplay: i was used to attack turns, drive agressively, and now driving those cars (and many other FR, MR cars) feels like you are fighting to drive on the ice.

those are just some of the humble feelings that i had driving the game without my wheel for a week or so. am i too harsh? is it really this "sensitive" in real life? are the tires physics still badly represented in the game?

why do you guys think about this subject in general?

altough its still an awesome game in my eyes, somehow i feel that i have more fun driving in standard mode... it shouldn't be like this right?

 

[Tourist_Trophy]

yeah, thats how i play except i have a viper. i have a V10.

 

[nobuffalo]

driving in pro mode, with all aids off, sports tires. ok, brace yourself. driving a ford GT LM, aston martin DB9, an amuse S2000 or even the vette Z06, under those circunstances, is a pain. countersteering is so sensitive. grip feels like its close to zero.

I think I have gotten fairly used to it, but I agree, the grip levels of the tires seem to be a little lacking. Like you, I have no time on a track so I can't really say from experience. And the only rwd car i've had was an 86 mr2, so I don't have experience driving high powered rwd vehicles. So i guess my opinion isn't really worth anything.

 

[danjama]

This guy looks like he is driving on ice!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da4x1aGXUhg

 

[Ardius]

I have no problems with the physics, with the cars you listed you just have to either tune the oversteer out of them or use better throttle control.

 

[Numer0bis]

well I always like driving with the amuse s2000 and I always drive in professional physics mode and all aids off (abs too). But I think you are very right with high performance cars like the amuse fully tuned it outputs about 626ps sport tires really doesn't do justice for this car. I mean the amuse s2000 is a pure race car and race cars do use race tires so why shouldn't use race tires? I always use race tires

 

[topgearhead]

Coming from being quite fast and confident in gt4 and gthd to being downright horrible in gt5p is a sad thing for me.

just saved up for my Ford GT, take it to the high speed ring, and WOW insane lift oversteer. Im having to learn high speed driving all over again, which i guess isnt bad, as long as this is realistic. ive gotten my mustang sideways plenty of times. and its always much more slow and controllable than what Gt5p feels like. then again my mustang gt has a little more than 1/2 of the horspower and torque of its bigger GT brother. and i know that mid engine setup doesnt help with the lift oversteer. but wowzers watching the sti's and evos fly by me around corners is getting discouraging.

 

[Famine]

Coming from being quite fast and confident in gt4 and gthd to being downright horrible in gt5p is a sad thing for me.

just saved up for my Ford GT, take it to the high speed ring, and WOW insane lift oversteer. Im having to learn high speed driving all over again, which i guess isnt bad, as long as this is realistic. ive gotten my mustang sideways plenty of times. and its always much more slow and controllable than what Gt5p feels like. then again my mustang gt has a little more than 1/2 of the horspower and torque of its bigger GT brother. and i know that mid engine setup doesnt help with the lift oversteer. but wowzers watching the sti's and evos fly by me around corners is getting discouraging.

Don't forget that in real life you have an additional sense that no console game for quite a few years yet can replicate - equilibrioception (the sense of balance). You can feel the slide before it starts. In games you have no clues until you can see and hear it.

 

[topgearhead]

in the A class races do the cpu cars operate on the same physics level as you? seems strange that my Gt is squirming about at the absolute limit of adhesion and the nsx next to me is loading up perfectly and just holding on.

anybody know what physics level the cpus operate on?

(maybe i just suck lol)

 

[Small_Fryz]

Don't forget that in real life you have an additional sense that no console game for quite a few years yet can replicate - equilibrioception (the sense of balance). You can feel the slide before it starts. In games you have no clues until you can see and hear it.

You forgot one more aspect.. FFB. Not so much in GT5P but in the PC games like Rfactor and GTL you can feel what the cars doing through the wheel, which along with the sounds and what you "see" you can become remarkably good at picking up slides very early and in most cases you can predect when they will happen and be able to prevent or catch them before they are that noticable.

personally if GT5P can work more on the FFB side of things then it will become much easier to sense these things and thus easier to control them. As it stands now, its not impossible but you just have to know and understand the situation and do a bit of assuming. This way your not caught by suprise when your car oversteers.

 

[TheCracker]

You forgot one more aspect.. FFB. Not so much in GT5P but in the PC games like Rfactor and GTL you can feel what the cars doing through the wheel, which along with the sounds and what you "see" you can become remarkably good at picking up slides very early and in most cases you can predect when they will happen and be able to prevent or catch them before they are that noticable.

personally if GT5P can work more on the FFB side of things then it will become much easier to sense these things and thus easier to control them. As it stands now, its not impossible but you just have to know and understand the situation and do a bit of assuming. This way your not caught by suprise when your car oversteers.

Force feedback can communicate what the front wheels of the car are doing, but you can only really relate oversteer through the seat of your pants.

 

[Famine]

You forgot one more aspect.. FFB. Not so much in GT5P but in the PC games like Rfactor and GTL you can feel what the cars doing through the wheel, which along with the sounds and what you "see" you can become remarkably good at picking up slides very early and in most cases you can predect when they will happen and be able to prevent or catch them before they are that noticable.

personally if GT5P can work more on the FFB side of things then it will become much easier to sense these things and thus easier to control them. As it stands now, its not impossible but you just have to know and understand the situation and do a bit of assuming. This way your not caught by suprise when your car oversteers.

You can't sense load transfer with your fingers. Only once we all have G360-style setups in our computer rooms will our real sixth sense (yes - equilibrioception really is the sixth sense) be satisfied.

 

[BreakerOhio]

I think this is the exact reason why the Developers came up with two physics mode.

Standard and Professional.

I think the Developers considered that not all users are alike. Some more advanced and appreciate the difficulty and options, and some just casual and want to drive and progress through the game. I think there is no shame if you choose to play in standard mode. It's there as an option. I think questioning the authenticity of the professional physics are too twitchy with RWD and MR cars usually come from users that haven't expereinced a RWD sports car in real life at the limits on a track. The Professional physics is giving you this experience and hopefully gaining your respect for what racers out there do. It's not as simple as gas and shift in a drag race.

If they make the game physics too realistic, it would not catpure all the audience of car enthusiusts because the difficulty to play it would take away from the gameplay. With the Professional physics it is really authentic. So I think the best solution is consider playing standard or throw on some stability and traction control aids when you use Professional. People may point out that you are driving with aids, blah, blah blah...but it's your gaming experience and do as you please. When the online events regulate what you can do, then its up to you to learn and sharpen your driving skills to participate. I hope they someday have options to make events PRO mode and no aids, no racing lines, and no abs. But I think that may come later once more people demand for it.

However I beleive most will continue using Professional because we want to learn with the most realistic option. . But if you just want to play and progress...consider standard.

Similar to your situation when I'm not using my Logitech wheel, I am stepping away from the most realistic option and using the controller and sometimes its more fun using standard mode to just race without having to think too hard about it.


Not everyone enjoys fighting to drive on ice as you mentioned, but it's the reality of the cars behavior when you drive a RWD or MR sports car that is set up this way.

 

[topgearhead]

I think this is the exact reason why the Developers came up with two physics mode.

Standard and Professional.

I think the Developers considered that not all users are alike. Some more advanced and appreciate the difficulty and options, and some just casual and want to drive and progress through the game. I think there is no shame if you choose to play in standard mode. It's there as an option. I think questioning the authenticity of the professional physics are too twitchy with RWD and MR cars usually come from users that haven't expereinced a RWD sports car in real life at the limits on a track. The Professional physics is giving you this experience and hopefully gaining your respect for what racers out there do. It's not as simple as gas and shift in a drag race.

If they make the game physics too realistic, it would not catpure all the audience of car enthusiusts because the difficulty to play it would take away from the gameplay. With the Professional physics it is really authentic. So I think the best solution is consider playing standard or throw on some stability and traction control aids when you use Professional. People may point out that you are driving with aids, blah, blah blah...but it's your gaming experience and do as you please. When the online events regulate what you can do, then its up to you to learn and sharpen your driving skills to participate.

However I beleive most will continue using Professional because we want to learn with the most realistic option. . But if you just want to play and progress...consider standard.

Similar to your situation when I'm not using my Logitech wheel, I am stepping away from the most realistic option and using the controller and sometimes its more fun using standard mode to just race without having to think too hard about it.


Not everyone enjoys fighting to drive on ice as you mentioned, but it's the reality of the cars behavior when you drive a RWD or MR sports car that is set up this way.

sound advise =)

I am a student of speed, and will always strive to improve my driving, however for the moment im throwing it on standard, so i can get my tuning options, then go back and learn to drive (so to speak) when i can tweak things more to my liking.

that being said, im not going to buy a middle engined car EVER! (in real life) heaven forbid i come in to a corner rather too spiritedly, lift off the throttle, then wonder what happened as i go sailing backwords into a tree. =P

 

[legroom]

Don't forget that in real life you have an additional sense that no console game for quite a few years yet can replicate - equilibrioception (the sense of balance). You can feel the slide before it starts. In games you have no clues until you can see and hear it.

You can't sense load transfer with your fingers. Only once we all have G360-style setups in our computer rooms will our real sixth sense (yes - equilibrioception really is the sixth sense) be satisfied.

Whilst i agree with the point that you're making in these posts. Equilibrioception is not the sixth sense.

It is the sense of balance but it is not a "sense" in the same way that sight, touch, hearing and smell are. A sense is comprised of several types of input coming being received by the same source. e.g. rods and cones in the eye creating the visual scene or pressure and temperature sensors creating the sensation of touch. Balance however is the result of the brain processing information from several senses (vision and hearing from the eyes and vestibular organs) to create an picture and feeling of balance. This is completed in the brain through comparison of what the eyes are actually seeing, what the brain thinks the eyes are seeing, hearing and the movement of the fluid and pressure in the inner ear.
All of these things together create a "sense" of balance.

When all of these things are working together, you feel balanced. When they are mislead, for example when you spin around with your eyes closed or get drunk, the information from the eyes and ears doesn't match leading the brain to create the image that your body has been poisoned. This creates the feeling that you want to be sick (the bodys natural way to try and remove poisons from the system).

 

[theboyrob]

i awlays use proessional mode but do find some of the cars seem to have pretty much no grip even with sports tyres. Is it very much like driving on ice. I can counter react the oversteer and understeer but there just doesn't seem to be as much grip as there should be.

 

[akhbhaat]

Perhaps I can chime in, here. I'm a bit of a track junkie in real life (IRL from here on out), so I love threads/comparisons like this. Like many here, I presume, I seek games/software which will provide as realistic an experience as possible - that's where the fun comes from, after all. I've never cared much for "racing" in these sorts of games, primarily because the AI has always sucked and online play is far too variable (let's face it: most of the people "driving" online are arcade racers at heart, and some probably aren't even old enough to hold a license in the first place). Instead, I like to acquire cars (especially those I've either driven/owned or want to drive IRL) and run hot laps. Accordingly, track selection is a big deal to me - if a game includes a track I've either driven or have access to in person (these include, for example: Sebring, Roebling, Daytona road course and - yes - I've been on the famous Nordschleife), then it scores points with me. Tracking is an expensive hobby, so if I can get a well simulated experience out of a $60 game on a $400 piece of hardware, I'm thrilled.

Without going into an exhaustive list of the vehicles that I have either owned or accumulated a lot of seat time in, let's just say I'm no stranger to powerful RWD cars. Most of my experience is in German automobiles, but I've driven a few well known American models as well.

To begin with: the "standard" physics, meanwhile, seem to closely resemble GT4 which means they aren't worth considering. I speak only of the "professional" setting.

Prologue's driving model is definitely improved over GT4, if for no other reason than the fact that RWD cars will actually oversteer if you're too hard on the throttle mid-corner or post-apex - and you can actually hold slip angles. GT4's tire modeling was unquestionably flawed/broken (it seemed as though there was no progression in grip as the tires reached their adhesion limits) and holding a high slip angle/slide/drift was virtually impossible even in situations where it's not that difficult in reality. So, that's a good start. However, I think they're actually overdone it: the 135i, (for instance) which is a notorious understeerer in real life (like most BMWs) is all over the place if you're not running R tires, even at speed. That's one thing but the fact that the 63 hp Cappuccino is much the same way tells me something is far amiss. Staying off the throttle entirely produces a bit of understeer in both models, so it isn't chassis oversteer (nor should it be, especially with the aforementioned BM) - and when is the last time a major manufacturer developed a production road car with an oversteer bias? Definitely not accurate. Bottom line is this: it's far, far too easy to promote power oversteer in RWD vehicles, which is simply not realistic - in GT5's 135i, you can easily entice the car into a flat out spin at ~70 kph with partial throttle application through a moderately tight corner. The real car is nothing like that.

Moreover, the game still doesn't model a proper LSD in cars that should have them - the M3 failed the donut test. I'm wondering if all cars are/will be given open rear ends by default (to force you to buy the LSD in the tune shop) or if this is something that can be corrected in the quick tune screen (I haven't unlocked it yet so I don't know). Most likely, though, it's just a hole in the tire physics model carried over from previous iterations. Perhaps I'm too picky - if it behaves properly at speed, who cares, right? Well, you can definitely feel the full effect of an LSD in a tight 1st gear hairpin even in lower powered cars, and GT should be no different if it's going to make claims on realism. This is one area where the PC racers absolutely crush their console counterparts.

A note on handling "feel:" static simulators are a definite disadvantage when it comes to "feel" because they lack all of the various sensory cues that assist the driver of a real car. This is why a great tire model combined with force feedback is so essential to the experience - even if it means fudging the numbers a bit. The GT series is doing a good job with the FF, but the tire modeling still leaves a good bit (as noted above) to be desired. One area where GT5 excels is visual presentation: the in-car view manages to be somewhat convincing, especially if you sit somewhat close to a wide screen HDTV. The subtle motion of the driver's view shifting with the G forces is another plus.

Verdict: in its present state, I still think GT5's driving model falls short of Enthusia for PS2, which in my opinion remains the console standard for weight transfer and tire modeling. However, it has closed the gap since GT4 and does have real promise if they manage to correct some of the problems mentioned above in time for the full release. I wish I could offer up a comparison with Forza 2, but I still haven't touched FM2 with a proper wheel (does such a thing even exist for the X360?) so it wouldn't be fair. FWIW, I thought Forza 1 was a joke but that's somewhat irrelevant to the issue at hand.

One thing is for certain: all of the console racers still have a little ways to go to match the best PC racers (GTR2, LFS, Race 07) as comprehensive driving simulators - particularly in the realms of driving model and AI. If the final production of GT5 somehow manages to combine the GT series' slick presentation and awesome car/track selection with a driving model equivalent to one of the products mentioned above (Forza aside), then I will be beyond satisfied (even if things like AI or damage modeling continue to disappoint).

 

[Famine]

Whilst i agree with the point that you're making in these posts. Equilibrioception is not the sixth sense.

It is the sense of balance but it is not a "sense" in the same way that sight, touch, hearing and smell are. A sense is comprised of several types of input coming being received by the same source. e.g. rods and cones in the eye creating the visual scene or pressure and temperature sensors creating the sensation of touch. Balance however is the result of the brain processing information from several senses (vision and hearing from the eyes and vestibular organs) to create an picture and feeling of balance. This is completed in the brain through comparison of what the eyes are actually seeing, what the brain thinks the eyes are seeing, hearing and the movement of the fluid and pressure in the inner ear.
All of these things together create a "sense" of balance.

It certainly is the sixth sense - the sixth of about 22. In fact it's the easiest to classify as an additional sense, since it's exteroception (perception of external stimuli, along with taste, touch, sight, hearing and smell) rather than interoception. You could also nail on nociception, proprioception (my favourite) and thermoception, amongst others, but this kind of thing tends to annoy neurologists.

A sense is anything with specific neurological function to detect information.

Also, the vestibules have no function for hearing - and hearing has no bearing (no pun intended) on balance.

Edit: Though I suspect this discussion is for another place, time and neurologists.

 

[Biggles]

My reaction would be the opposite of fasj6148:

I just had my first 2 hour session with GT5P last night. Although the physics are significantly improved from GT4, the handling is still too easy.

I think as Breaker says, the GT series is designed to appeal to a very wide market, so there is a choice between the more forgiving Standard mode & more challenging Professional mode. My sense of the Professional mode is that it's still too easy to push the car hard through the turns: weight transfer is still under-represented, so balancing the car through a series of turns is not as hard as it would IRL. In addition, the lack of damage & realistic collision physics take away the consequences for making a mistake - just bounce off the wall or another car & carry on. This detracts from the excitement & tension of high speed driving in GT5P.

However, on the positive side, the physics in GT5P are a big step up from GT4.

 

[fasternfaster]

i dont know if some of the beginner drivers have noticed, but an EASY way to tell if your car is pushing/oversteering BEFORE the tires even make any noise is to pay VERY close attention to the ASPHALT!

Let me explain, As you drive in a straight line you can observe the grains of asphalt travel in a straight line from the distance down the center of your screen. if you can visualise a line starting from your front bumper at the exact point where the grains of asphalt hit it at a perpendicular angle out to infinity, this is your cars current direction.. obviously in this example the line will be dead center and your direction is straight...

Now consider that you are taking a turn at a normal speed (not at the limit) the direction of your cars travel at any given moment should be TANGENT to the racing line. you can observe this as the racing line or (what ever line your car will travel) hit your bumper at a perpendicular angle right in the center.

Sorry i am being repetitive. If your car begins to UNDERSTEER, the motion of the aspahalt's grains/texture will appear to shift towards the inside of the corner, and the asphalt immediately infront of the bumper will not be hitting it perpendicularly.

An extreme case of this is, when your car is completely sideways, the asphalt infront of the car is not going under the bumper at all, its rather going by sideways.

If you can keep a close eye on the direction in which the asphalt is moving, this will give you clues as to where your car is heading. If these are different than where your car is pointed, then you have a "slip angle" situation. I can usually notice this before the tires make any noise.

 

[BreakerOhio]

I think it's important to know what tires people are using when they are making these claims too. It would be helpful for readers and possibily the Developers that read these threads.
Just saying the tires need work without describing your test case fully doesn't give a clear image of what is happening in your test case.

Again there are choices. Choices in physics, and choices in tires. N, S, or R they are there to give you options on how you want the cars to handle.

I just test drove a BMW 135i this weekend in real life and it was surreal how realistic it felt because it made me think of the seat time I put in with this car playing GT5 Prologue. The tires on the BMW 135i in real life are probably S3 tires and the car felt just like the game to me.

Anyways...I digress
I think if played with S3 tires in the game, the car won't oversteer as easy as people mention about this car.

If you play it with N tires, you are asking for it.

The point I'm making is, when someone describes how twitchy their car is, please describe what tires you are using.

In real life, it seems that most cars come with S tires. If you go N tires, you are asking for economy tires and it's a nice feature to be able to equip because people choose to do so in real life and understand the grip levels differ.

The difference between N and S tires is probably like cheap economy tires verse summer performance tires in real life.

 

[nobuffalo]

I found it very difficult to gain positions while playing arcade in professional mode. With the corvette or viper, the most I could gain was two or three positions in two laps time. I was never one for using the standard physics, so instead I would just use better tires, R1 or R2's for instance. IMO standard physics are much more unrealistic than Pro physics, even when using R tires in Pro.

Of course with the release of the US version and updates, the AI is now adjustable and it doesn't have to be a death run with only two laps.

 

[fasj6418]

well, i wasen't really concentrating on oversteearing and spins, that's easilly corrected with throttle modulation. i think my point was better represented here:

Bottom line is this: it's far, far too easy to promote power oversteer in RWD vehicles, which is simply not realistic - in GT5's 135i, you can easily entice the car into a flat out spin at ~70 kph with partial throttle application through a moderately tight corner. The real car is nothing like that.

you see, what i really "doubt" if i can say that, is the grip simulation.

you can really get a flat out spin at 70kph and i wondered if that really happened in real life.

in previous GT's faster lap times compared to real life were achieved through a misimulation of top speed and accelaration, compensating the low levels of grip. and that was what i was thinking when i questioned GT5P.

a bit of my critic is this, and maybe a 30/40% is the fact that i have to re-learn how to drive, sort of. i was still carriyng some bad habits of driving a lot of GT4 racing cars with R5 tires.

changing from the pitwork Z in GT4 to a ford GT LM in prologue is like night and day. it's not that it isn't realistic, but some of the cars just doesn't seen "fun".

but still, after some practice, it does get a lot better.

the only thing i won't accept is if someone tells me that to achieve real life performance, i would need to drive the ford GT in N1 tires.

that would only mean one thing: never buy a ford GT in real life

 

[Biggles]

a bit of my critic is this, and maybe a 30/40% is the fact that i have to re-learn how to drive, sort of. i was still carriyng some bad habits of driving a lot of GT4 racing cars with R5 tires.

I think this is exactly the problem - if you're used to GT4's physics, GT5P is going to require an adjustment.

I would revise my previous post: as I have now driven a powerful FR car (the Z06), I would now say that GT5P does a pretty good job of modelling oversteer/understeer. I really like how you have to coax this beast around the track. I've never driven one IRL so I can't say how realistic it is, but it certainly feels realistic (especially using the G25's clutch & H-shifter). IMO the overall effect is superior to EPR, especially because the FFB in the wheel feels more convincing than in EPR, & because of the clutch, H-shifter & great graphics & in-car view. I'm giving it the thumbs up! 👍

The only thing we need now is the Nurburgring!

 

[steve30x]

Whenever I play GT5 (which isnt often) I use standard handling because I dont have anything that I can clamp my G25 on to. Soon Ill be buying something that I can clamp my wheel to.