Levels should be put back to License tests

Which progression system would you like GT6 to have?

  • Go back to GT1-4 and have License tests

    Votes: 104 70.7%

  • Stay the course as with GT5 and do leveling

    Votes: 6 4.1%

  • Have a hybrid system or both matter

    Votes: 27 18.4%

  • Neither

    Votes: 10 6.8%
  • Total voters
    147
  • Poll closed .
I also think it would be cool to have an option in public lobbies for the host to be able to set the License required to enter the race.
 
Exorcet
People aren't going to learn because you make them go through hoops. In fact if the license test is for learning, it's best left optional.

What leveling and mandatory licenses do is make people memorize something, pass that something, and then no longer care. If on the other hand, someone wants to learn, they'll probably pay attention.

Mandatory licenses are just a hoop for people who won't benefit a single thing from them or a way for people who like to shove their life goals checklists in everyone else's face.
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Absolutely. Getting all gold in the S-license didn't mean anything when I went online anyway, I still had to readjust my driving to other competitors, as opposed to the lame AI.
 
The license tests need to be required like they used to be, and then your completion level should follow you online so that everyone can see what level of driver you are.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
I really like this concept, but instead why not after each license test add in a leveling system? Where one must gain a certain amount of levels before they achieve or are allowed the next driving license test, thus it will promote improved technical driving before doing the actual test. Then when the test comes up everything you learned by leveling up is then used for said test.

Hope that is understandable. Either way I can see problems with both of our systems, but you have a more clear cut one.
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I must say I like the idea of saving time as skilled driver by choosing the license path instead of the time consuming level alternative.

Maybe you can use the level system as only factor for certain features, although I don't really see the point then. An excellent driver shouldn't need lots of time for practise.

I'm not sure if the following is a good idea, but additionally you could handle the licenses so that they automatically give a certain level boost or even jump. Like every license gives you a plus of 5 leves, or you hit certain stages such as lvl 0 with nb (obligatory (easy) tutorial), lvl 5 with na, lvl 10 with ib, lvl 15 with ia, lvl 20 with s license.
The licenses in general and the higher the respecitve licenses are, they would need to have a much higher difficulty level though.


But maybe it's too fast this way and you'd really need the level system as brake to balance things. But then it should be handled so that you still have an advantage by doing licenses, just not too extreme if you complete them all right at the beginning.
 
If the level system were to stay in effect like in GT5 then I think it would be good to give us credit for online racing. I pretty much quit playing GT5 before they added the a-Spec races into the seasonal section. It was just way to boring try to get those last few levels driving the same races again and again just to unlock the one you want to run. That really needs to change one way or another.
 
ShiftingGears
Absolutely. Getting all gold in the S-license didn't mean anything when I went online anyway, I still had to readjust my driving to other competitors, as opposed to the lame AI.
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That's because GT5's license tests are stupid easy. Especially the S license.
 
Hm.

I do agree that the current "Level System" in GT5 feels like an artificial constraint.

I'd like to see availability for races come with earning the respective licenses, but I think it'd help stave off the feeling that you're "missing out" if higher-tierd license events were hidden, up until you earned the appropriate license. Kind of a little reward for passing License (x). :)

"Congratulations on passing your International B License test! You now have a new tier of races available under My Home (or however they format the home screen this go-round.)"
 
HBR-Roadhog
I also think it would be cool to have an option in public lobbies for the host to be able to set the License required to enter the race.
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This is a great idea, but the problem is that the License Tests don't prepare you for Online racing anymore than they do now.

Unless they created an Online Racing License that had a selection of tests that specifically recreated a number of common occurrences during Online racing. Licenses could acquire penalty points, at which point it would be revoked for too much dirty driving, forcing the driver to re-take the test in order to participate in clean rooms again. Clean racing with no points being removed from your license could give you an in-game cash reward. A license points reward could also be an idea, but that might lead to abuse, if someone races clean for a long time then decides to be dirty for a day or two before he sells his copy of the game, etc. Room mods could choose whether or not to enforce the License, allowing Dirty Driving or Novice Driving in the room under the normal restrictions if need be.

Here's a bullet point of how it would work:

  • Test is available after completing B or A-License. These Licenses help prepare the driver for online racing by teaching him proper skills and etiquette. Clock-beating emphasis is down-played to encourage the learning aspects over the "Fast or die" methodology tests enforce currently.
  • The License tests themselves would be geared to training drivers into good driving habits during online situations. These could include situations like grid-starting in a large field of cars, fast and/or sudden deceleration into turns around competitors, bump passing, corner cutting, etc.
  • License would have 100 points
  • When a License reaches 0 points, it's invalidated and the driver has to re-take the test in order to race in License-restricted lobbies online again.
  • Upon re-earning his License, it could possibly start off at 80 points, with the player having to have a number of clean races to earn back his 100 points, etc.
  • With each invalidated license, the player loses 10-points every time he re-takes the test. Thus, after 80 would be 70, 60, 50, etc.
  • There could be a minimum number of points, or a driver could have to wait a week before being allowed to re-take the test, if he continuously invalidates his license.
  • Points penalties to the license are dependent on the room host's specifications. You could lose 1-5 points per penalty accrued, up to an unlimited or set amount, depending on the host's settings.
  • In addition, other players in the room can propose a vote to apply a penalty of up to 5 points on you if they feel you were driving unfairly. (Same way that the "Vote to Kick" option works now.)
  • In a similar but opposite situation, a room can vote to have the entire room's penalty points from the previous race wiped, if a large group experienced an unfortunate circumstance, etc.
  • If a host removes you from a room, you get an automatic 1 point penalty. If a group votes you out of a room, you receive a 3 point penalty.
  • A host may also apply a penalty of up to 3 points to a single person after every race, but only if that player received a penalty. (This would be to prevent abusive host's from blanket-penalizing a whole room for no reason, especially clean drivers).
  • In addition, a host may remove any and all of a driver's penalty points from the previous session if they see fit, but may not remove their own. A host must request a vote from the participants in order to have his points removed.
  • The License, most importantly, does not replace or cause the removal of any of the current protections that GT5 uses, but is instead used in addition to them. A Host could choose to have no License requirement, but still put penalties on, etc.
  • Players could receive credit bonuses (in addition to Login Bonuses), for every clean race they have. If they have a dirty race, the bonus level remains the same as it was before they began the race. If they have another dirty race, they lose a level, and if they have three dirty races in a row, they lose their bonus. Players will not receive a bonus if they race in a room that does not have the License restriction activated.
  • The only way to re-gain points is to have clean races. A bonus could be applied for successive clean races to a maximum of 5 points back on your license per clean race. You may only be able to earn points back in rooms you do not host. You must finish the race with a time (to prevent drivers from starting and pulling off to the side and sitting while other's go 'round). Lastly, the races must have at least 3 other people finish the race.

Note: The numbers used in this proposed example are just that, examples.
 
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KinLM
By "I don't remember seeing it" means "I read it and it wasn't there in the opening post."

I have a perfectly fine memory and I read your original post 4 times and never found mention of that point.

And I'm not minimodding.

I just think that this topic would be better discussed in a larger thread. As well as the fact that physics and customization are commonly seen as bigger issues than licenses and therefore that's why they seem to do better as their own threads.
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LMSCorvetteGT2
First off I'd like to say if this has been done to any degree please move it, but I did search and go through several pages and didn't see an exclusive thread to this. The reason I think this has merit to be talked separate from others for several reasons, mainly each iteration of GT from 1-4 were done with License as that main credential of a qualified driver in GT and was quite realistic but also gave a feeling of accomplishment and deserving to drive higher profile vehicles.

Another issue is that the replacement to license test, which is now a mock system of other games that make progressing static and don't really show if one is deserving to drive with a group. Yet leveling also is directly linked to what cars one can drive, it would be much easier to put them under licenses groups. One easily has to do certain events to bring their level up quickly and a more strict licenses test like those seen in 3 and 4 would be quite helpful when selecting drivers for series.
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I just expanded on this more clearly but that is generally the same idea just reworked in my second post. Also I see what you mean though about how it is better served in a bigger thread, so you have a point. Like I said though, one shouldn't type and say memory...rather you should have said "I read it right before posting didn't see it". That actually sounds like you care to debate, the way you stated it seemed as you couldn't care less about what had been said to the point you had to rely on a distant memory.

Also at those saying they don't think license are a training tool my driving changed greatly when using the test for progressive driving. If anything GT5 made it moot to pay attention to what they were teaching. Rather it gives a sense that it really doesn't matter what level of driving they're looking to have people adhere to when you are just going to grind for a level.


How would PD prepare us for online though with license tests? making AIs that drive the wrong way at us or have late brake drivers or other erratic events, and if you can dodge you pass??
 
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I'd like to see two things for singleplayer / offline play.

Firstly a general A-Spec type mode that's similar to GT5 in terms of a selection of different races, the seasonal / special "online updated" events that change weekly and such. I'd prefer that use the license requirements like in previous games or even something a bit different but not the leveling system we have now (though it wouldn't bother me all that much if it didn't change a great deal either). Basically it'd be the offline place where you build up your cash / garage full of cars to use online.

Secondly I'd also like to see a proper Career mode that's not unlike the seasons / career modes in other sports games where you have race seasons and a calendar of racing events you can attend and such. It would be much more dependent on licenses and progression, not necessarily winning races but perhaps with certain key driver stats like starting / finishing races, average finish position, driver safety and wotnot (not dissimilar to the iRacing style of progression in some ways, for those familiar with that). Where you start out racing low budget weekend races and only have a small budget to buy / upgrade cars, then move up through different classes and levels like Club / Spec racing, Touring Cars, GT1 / 2 / 3, Formula cars and such, maybe by way of acquiring sponsorship from made up teams or even go it alone as a privateer / creating your own racing team (which might open the avenue for a better B-spec setup).

Of course something like that would require a proper and more competitive AI rather than the "chase the rabbit" / rail-riding style we currently have and I really don't expect anything as complex as a full Career mode to come in this impending version of GT. Not to say that it isn't a possibility, just that it's more a pipe dream of mine really :).
 
dr_slump
I'm not sure if the following is a good idea, but additionally you could handle the licenses so that they automatically give a certain level boost or even jump. Like every license gives you a plus of 5 leves, or you hit certain stages such as lvl 0 with nb (obligatory (easy) tutorial), lvl 5 with na, lvl 10 with ib, lvl 15 with ia, lvl 20 with s license.
The licenses in general and the higher the respecitve licenses are, they would need to have a much higher difficulty level though.


But maybe it's too fast this way and you'd really need the level system as brake to balance things. But then it should be handled so that you still have an advantage by doing licenses, just not too extreme if you complete them all right at the beginning.
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I think that's a fantastic idea. It allows casual gamers who aren't interested in the licenses or aren't capable of attaining them to still be able to complete all the racing events in the game, yet allowing seasoned drivers to progress through the career much more quickly.

Implemented with the levelling-up-to-be-allowed-to-do-licences system (sorry, couldn't think of a shorter way to say it), that could mean doing a mandatory B racing licence to start any form of racing > level 2 required for A licence > jump to level 5 > level 8 required for iB > jump to level 15 > level 19 required for iA > jump to level 30 > level 35 required for S > jump to level 50 (able to compete in any race in the game). I think that would be more realistic.

Of course, the actual levelling system itself has to be faster so that going through the levels for the casual gamer isn't such a grind. The game should also be rewarding players more as they progress; in GT5, progression through the levels just follows the law of diminishing returns.
 
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HBR-Roadhog
I also think it would be cool to have an option in public lobbies for the host to be able to set the License required to enter the race.
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R1600Turbo
Yes. Yes. Yes.
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Levels, tests, game completion - they mean nothing to online racing.

I can't tell you the number of level 40/40 people I have kicked from my lobby. (see my signature)

There needs to be a separate ?-spec for online experience. Only racing with people can teach you how to race with people.

I do have to say the online crowd has gotten better over the past year or so.

It seemed for a while that all the new level 40, 100%ers and all gold licenses crowd, started trying out online racing for the first time about a year and a half ago - man were they bad.

Smash you into the wall when you were on their inside in a corner, then tell you they were just following their line.

How the hell was it their line, when you were already there?

That phase has seemed to pass however, but I suspect those are the same guys that gave up online racing on here (gtplanet), and say that the online racing in open lobbies is crap.

It is the AI that is crap, and it always will be.
 
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Absolutely could not stand the GT5 leveling system. Forza 2 had a similar element and it killed the game for me. If I have enough credits to purchase a car, I should be able to buy it regardless. The license tests in GT1-4 were tedious, but they also added another challenge to the game. Because they weren't a required part of the progression system in GT5, I had no incentive to do them.
 
Chrunch Houston
I can't tell you the number of level 40/40 people I have kicked from my lobby. (see my signature)
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The level to me is meaningless anyway. Anyone can advance up in level without being able to drive that well. There were only a couple of events in A-Spec that really required much skill those being the Historic Race cars and the FGT. They weren't that hard but at least you could not drive a car that was 10x better than the AI cars.

There was also a glitch apparently that allowed people to exploit the game and easily advance in levels. I did not actually see it myself but a couple of my racing buddies got wind of it and used it to go on up to level 40.

The tough of allowing you to set the License level would just be one more way to restrict your room. It would not be perfect by any means but it would be one more way to filter the users who enter and may help a bit.

glassjaw
Absolutely could not stand the GT5 leveling system. Forza 2 had a similar element and it killed the game for me. If I have enough credits to purchase a car, I should be able to buy it regardless. The license tests in GT1-4 were tedious, but they also added another challenge to the game. Because they weren't a required part of the progression system in GT5, I had no incentive to do them.
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Forza 2 to the best of my memory had 2 restrictions of buying cars. 1 was the region you choose. There were some cars that were locked in all but a given region. You could change you region but it cost you credits and each time you changed it it costed you more than the last. There were also prize cars that were locked until you ran a given event then they became unlocked and you got the car for free.

Keep in mind however that it also had the auction house and you could buy pretty much any car in there even if they were still locked in your dealership. I know several people who got all the cars they wanted and raced online constantly without ever bothering with career mode at all.
 
I want License tests to be like bit separate mini-game. And I want simplicity too so I voted for GT1-4 License system. However maybe PD come with "better of both worlds" system.
 
Exorcet
People aren't going to learn because you make them go through hoops. In fact if the license test is for learning, it's best left optional.

What leveling and mandatory licenses do is make people memorize something, pass that something, and then no longer care. If on the other hand, someone wants to learn, they'll probably pay attention.

Mandatory licenses are just a hoop for people who won't benefit a single thing from them or a way for people who like to shove their life goals checklists in everyone else's face.
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Can't put it any better myself. Regardless of what PD does with the licensing system, I think it's mandatory that it become optional, or that more experienced drivers can skip all the lower levels and proceed right to the final level of testing. Same with A-Spec. Forcing experienced drivers to slog through endless races and tests to buy cars to advance in the game was fine before online, there was nothing else to do at that point. To do that type of thing in 2013 is an incredible waste of time on our parts. There needs to be a real separation between the online and offline aspect of the game, allowing players who primarily want to race online, to advance through the game much faster, with a completely separate ranking and evaluation system for online and offline experience.
 
I'd prefer it if they went back to the way it was in GT4, where you had to pass a license test to gain access to the next part of the game. That was an integral part of the game and gave GT some of its personality. It also gave me a nice sense of accomplishment to pass a set of tests and have all this extra content unlocked.

The way they are in GT5, they're just like some pointless little side thing that may as well be left out entirely.
 
Yes, please bring back the regular system. I loved being able to have to do a license before being able to compete in certain events, it gave me a sense of challenge in a way and it felt more rewarding to pass them. Although, I think PD should only award a car if someone at least gets all silver rather than just passing the tests.
 
In all cases, license tests should return. They are the first thing I tackle and the first experience in many new cars and its physics.
 
I think that PD should change how license tests are implemented in the game. At the beginning it should be simple to obtain and you don't need actual racing skill to complete, but as you progress through the game the techniques and control you need for different race series would be required, depending on your outcome your ability to maximize your earnings is impacted. This would definitely push for better driving skill, along with AI isn't as easy as GT5's competition AI which was definitely weaker than Arcade AI.
I enjoyed license tests they should be part of the overall game and not an after thought and tying them into the race series and disciplines would make them a part of the game with benefits to skillfully learning the techniques they teach. Which would bode well for online play to separate skilful drivers from those who aren't as skilled.
There should definitely be a license for F1 cars that really teach some skills that are needed to pilot those things, they defy common car logic with how you can use throttle and grip and slip when driving these cars. Real techniques learned and utilized in the game itself would be a tremendous accomplishment.

Oh and the leveling up should go away, it was terribly executed and was bothersome also the money ceiling was uncalled for, such a little amount when one car can bring back to zero in one purchase and back to the grind wheel...no more.
 
About the levels...It`s a bit futile to me, as You rise by grinding....I really don`t care about that..And levels don`t tell about Your skills..

But License....Well they don`t say anything about Your skills either, BUT...

I have an idea how they could make license reflect Your skill very effectively....

Say that You have to make every test 3 times in a row....Achieving the demanded result all 3 times....1. time You pass the test You get 3 points...Second time You pass You get another 3 points....And third time You get Your Gold Trophy....Again; You will have to do it three times in a row to get gold....If You do it 2 times after another, and fail the 3. time You get only silver...

And for bronce You will have to make a bronze acievement 3 times in a row as well, each time You pass You get 1 point, and 1 point 3 times in a row You get Your Bronce Trophy...For Siver it would be 2 points for every passed test, 3 times in a row, and Silver Trophy it is...

Or to be even more specific:

You do the tests 3 times in a row, a Gold achievement gives You 3 points, a Silver achievement is 2 points, and Bronze achivement is 1 point..

If You get 9 points (3x3 points) You get GOLD...

If You get 8 points it´s Silver

If 7 points it`s Silver....

If 6 points it´s Silver

If 5 points it`s Bronze...

If 4 points it`s Bronze...

If 3 points it`s Bronze...

That would prove Your skills indeed....

For average me it would be a problem, admitted....I have,as far as I remember, 51 Golds, 8 Silvers, and 1 Bronze, but that doesn`t reflect my (lack of) skill at all...The truth is that I tried over and over on the hardest ones, got back to it months later and tried again....In other words, my Gold Trophies in the hardest ones was merely luck and persistance...

3 times in a row....Poor me...And poor everyone else being only average.....But for top drivers it would indeed be SOMETHING to be proud of...I really don`t think my idea would serve me well, but for some...It would raise the license tests to something worthfull/trustworthy...Or for the averages out there it would be AWFUL (But still trustworthy)...But it would reflect Your expertise, or lack of it, thats for sure...

ps Never mind me; I was thinking loud....:dunce:
 
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Wasn't the idea of the game to have people start on a ground level like a weekend driver and work their way up into higher levels. I don't understand why that aspect of the game needs to be changed.
 
License tests should be dropped entirely. Stop as close to the line as possible, do a right hand turn, slalom, blah, blah, blah. Be like the real world and your license will be based on your ability on the track. Contact with cars, type and severity of contact, do you have many offs because you brake too late or is the car a POS, or do you refuse to use the brakes? Are your laps consistently improving?

iRacing has this sort of system right? I don't subscribe to iRacing, so I don't know it inside and out.

One huge thing GT6 has got to do is get far away from these stupid little 2 or 3 lap races.

Then again, GT6 needs to be more entertaining (aka not so friggin boring that it turns off race fans even further). It has to be engaging to the aspiring pro. Yet friendly enough that a 7 yr old could get some fun out of it.

The 9 Hours of Boredom at Tsukuba may have turned my 13 year old daughter off to Gran Turismo (and a lot of adults too).
 
DaveTheStalker
License tests should be dropped entirely. Stop as close to the line as possible, do a right hand turn, slalom, blah, blah, blah. Be like the real world and your license will be based on your ability on the track. Contact with cars, type and severity of contact, do you have many offs because you brake too late or is the car a POS, or do you refuse to use the brakes? Are your laps consistently improving?

iRacing has this sort of system right? I don't subscribe to iRacing, so I don't know it inside and out.

One huge thing GT6 has got to do is get far away from these stupid little 2 or 3 lap races.

Then again, GT6 needs to be more entertaining (aka not so friggin boring that it turns off race fans even further). It has to be engaging to the aspiring pro. Yet friendly enough that a 7 yr old could get some fun out of it.

The 9 Hours of Boredom at Tsukuba may have turned my 13 year old daughter off to Gran Turismo (and a lot of adults too).
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iRacing has a system that promotes careful driving with awareness, thus if you have a poor rating people will know and you are limited. Which is fine, but the stuff you described isn't the only requirement to gaining a license just the basic ones. There higher up license rely on the ability you have around a track against other racers, yet utilizing the skills you were taught (the ones you don't like) in prior licenses.
 

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