- 26,628
- OREGON
- a6m5zero
Whatever happened with the Lincoln LS. I thought that Lexus was planning on filing a lawsuit.
Lexus IS-F: 400 BHP, 8-Speed Auto, 0-60 in 4.9 sec
- Thread starter YSSMAN
- 114 comments
- 9,542 views
- 19,786
- Alabamamania
Great, I'm getting F'd.
I don't give an F, but I can sell you one.
Could there be a Lexus ISF U2-edition in the works?
I can't wait for the LS 600hLF. Might was well say the VIN, it's quicker.
L-tuned sounds better, even though the process has been discontinued for some time now. TRD are three letters that should never be pronounced together as a word, apparently.
I don't give an F, but I can sell you one.
Could there be a Lexus ISF U2-edition in the works?
I can't wait for the LS 600hLF. Might was well say the VIN, it's quicker.
L-tuned sounds better, even though the process has been discontinued for some time now. TRD are three letters that should never be pronounced together as a word, apparently.
Um...it's been 17 years.
- 26,628
- OREGON
- a6m5zero
I knew that "F" joke was coming, sooner or later.
I think he means another 10 years. All I can say is that he is more patient than I am.
Edit: Unless he's originally from overseas. Lexus is new to some.
- 17,865
- 509
Hmm... We all know I am the resident Toyota nut, well, at least anyone thats talked to me for more than 3 minutes.
Anyhow, this is both a good and bad I would presume. As YSSMAN mentioned, the LS's braking is terrible... horrible and somewhat scary actually. Those 40 feet are the difference between stopping before the intersection or going all the way through it. So Lexus and Toyota have got to get some things straightened out there. Soon.
About the design teaser for this IS-F. I like the idea of aero parts, but the exhaust is just bleh. And I am sure it will be ditched judging from initial reactions they will find. Toyota has always been pretty good about making the body kits they sell work well on the car. Only one that has ever been questioned by me would be the 7th gen Celica's action pack, namely the spoiler. So I don't think we will be getting pre-riced IS's running around.
In regard to the F logo and such. I think it looks fine, and doesn't really sound any different to me than M and such. And who knows, it could stand for Fast
Now they just need a DSG system to complete the performance of the car, cause I am sure the IS platform has potential, lots of it.
Anyhow, this is both a good and bad I would presume. As YSSMAN mentioned, the LS's braking is terrible... horrible and somewhat scary actually. Those 40 feet are the difference between stopping before the intersection or going all the way through it. So Lexus and Toyota have got to get some things straightened out there. Soon.
About the design teaser for this IS-F. I like the idea of aero parts, but the exhaust is just bleh. And I am sure it will be ditched judging from initial reactions they will find. Toyota has always been pretty good about making the body kits they sell work well on the car. Only one that has ever been questioned by me would be the 7th gen Celica's action pack, namely the spoiler. So I don't think we will be getting pre-riced IS's running around.
In regard to the F logo and such. I think it looks fine, and doesn't really sound any different to me than M and such. And who knows, it could stand for Fast
Now they just need a DSG system to complete the performance of the car, cause I am sure the IS platform has potential, lots of it.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
I'd agree that a proper double-clutch sequential manual is needed in this day and age. Certainly they can get by with an automatic, but it is going to either have to be extremely heavy-duty (6L80E) or shift incredibly fast (Jag XK's ZF unit) to be worth anything.
IMO, if Lexus wants the car to have true sporting credentials, they will send them out only with 6-speed manuals. That way they can knock-gloves with the CTS-V, RS4, M3, etc.
- 1,579
- 3,207
1) My C/D came in the mail today (which is weird since it usually comes late in the months before, not on the 7th), and yes that number is bad (brake performance). No, its not dangerous though. If it is cause for concern, Lexus will fix it. Exactly how many LS owners are going to be going to the track and needing that brake performance? With real world driving, 40 feet from 70 mph is nothing.
2) Yes, MT hasnt doing the best job recently. I understand that theyve also made some mistakes in car of the year (PT cruiser, Thunderbird) and are biased towards american cars. That aside, they have driven alot of cars and know what they are talking about. This is a large group of people. It would be highly unlikely that the whole group of them are not trustworthy. To put it simply, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that you know better than them.
Their opinion may differ from other magazines, that is true. But have you seen the difference in views on the 300C between C/D and TopGear? The quality of writing is irrelevant in this context, its the opinions, and I have no reason to believe they are not credible. Please offer proof if you can...
- 7,666
I was primarily referring to their sports division. Anyway, I am a German car nut and have not really been paying attention to what goes on over there (R&T does not seem to cover them) until now.
I'll take the Infiniti G over this. That has been around long enough to be an established car. Too bad it's a coupe.
I'd be funny if they came out with a U car. Imagine driving down the road and seeing F-U on the rear end of the car in front of you
- 10,845
- Belgium
- bramturismo
I fully agree with Azuremen there, in fact, I'd bet my money on the fact that would BMW launced an F-series, everyone would be looking forward...I think the exhausts look fine on that car actually.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Its official:
Only 400 BHP? It will be an interesting match up in the uber-sedan segment, but I don't see an overly bright future against the 400+ BHP M3 (which will probably be lighter too), and the rumored 515 BHP CTS-V at the end of the year...
LLN.com
Only 400 BHP? It will be an interesting match up in the uber-sedan segment, but I don't see an overly bright future against the 400+ BHP M3 (which will probably be lighter too), and the rumored 515 BHP CTS-V at the end of the year...
- 10,620
- gtp_jimprower
Those photos look photoshopped. and badly, too
the IS-F at looks at least a little more sporty...let's hope Toyota makes this truly an exciting car...not a sterile one.
the IS-F at looks at least a little more sporty...let's hope Toyota makes this truly an exciting car...not a sterile one.
- 17,865
- 509
They need to get back with Yamaha and start making some truly kick ass engines again. All these xx-FxxE engines are making okay power, but the Yamaha G heads, such as those on the 2ZZ-GE, 4A-GE, and 2JZ-GE made them high performance screamers.
I say bring back the G and start making 100 hp/liter engines again Lexus.
And that picture looks like a terrible photoshop indeed.
I say bring back the G and start making 100 hp/liter engines again Lexus.
And that picture looks like a terrible photoshop indeed.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
A good guess will be that the car could be white-knuckle fast in a straight line, and thats about it. I'm sure it will handle well, and I'm sure that it will be somewhat easy to drive fast, however I get the feeling that it won't be very rewarding.
...If I was BMW, Mercedes, Audi, or GM, I really wouldn't view the car as a threat. I'm sure Motor Trend will be all over it as "the greatest sports sedan ever," given how much they like to kiss Toyota's ass, however purists will probably leave it for dead.
...If I was BMW, Mercedes, Audi, or GM, I really wouldn't view the car as a threat. I'm sure Motor Trend will be all over it as "the greatest sports sedan ever," given how much they like to kiss Toyota's ass, however purists will probably leave it for dead.
Those are not "pics" per se, they are captions of an animated internet ad released by Lexus.
Here is the full add
Also, and I'm not sure if this has been posted here already, but this is a video of the IS-F at the 'Ring.
Here is an article posted by jruhi4 from my.is:
Contains speculation on engine, transmission and the IS-F's competiton.
The Lexus IS-F: the V8 migrates to Lexus' smallest RWD vehicle. But which V8?
As is customary in Lexus' recent pattern of new product launches, the company is, at this point, being coy about which V8 will power the IS-F, how much horsepower it will pack, or even if the IS-F will or won't be a hybrid. And anyone who's been following all the IS-F rumo(u)rs and commentary will find that their head is spinning from all the contradictory information out there.
The 1UR-FSE (4.6-liter V8, 380 hp) scenario
The most straightforward possibility would seem to be that the IS-F would be powered by Lexus' first all-new V8 since the marque was launched back in late 1989: the 1UR-FSE V8 which powers the 4th-generation Lexus LS460 and LS460L. With its unique direct injection/port injection combination, it represents a quantum leap over its predecessor, the 3UZ-FE 4.3-liter, 278 hp V8. The 1UR-FSE is a 4.6-liter V8 which produces 380 hp at its 6400 rpm redline, and 367 lb/ft of torque@4100 rpm. It propels the LS460 from a standstill to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds.
Predicting its performance in a Lexus IS-F is a dicey proposition, since the new 1UR-FSE 4.6-liter V8 hasn't yet migrated to the Lexus GS, the IS's larger platform-mate. One of the closest apples-to-apples comparisons would be between the 3rd-generation GS350 and the 2nd-generation IS350, which is 177 lbs lighter than its larger sibling. Lexus' conflicting numbers, however, threaten to make this 'mission impossible". While Lexus is consistent in posting a 0-60 mph acceleration time of 5.7 seconds for the GS350, confusion reigns as far as the IS350 figures. Is it 5.6 seconds, as per the Lexus North American Pressroom and the 2006 IS brochure, or 5.3 seconds, as per the Lexus USA website? The other feasible comparison would be between the 3rd-generation GS430 and the 3rd-generation LS430, where the former's 242 lb. weight advantage knocks two-tenths of a second off the larger LS's 5.9 second 0-60 time.
Equally tricky is trying to determine the weight penalty the IS-F would incur versus the IS350. It's certainly encouraging to view the GS350 versus GS430 curb weight figures and see that the V8 is only 43 lbs heavier than the V6. Before you get all excited, however, note that the 4th-generation LS460 gained 254 lbs versus the 3rd-generation LS430. And, with a 300cc larger V8 with a more complex direct injection/port injection system, it's a near-certainty that the upcoming Lexus GS460 will heavier overall than the GS430.
A very haphazard guess, then, would put a 1UR-FSE 4.6-liter V8-powered IS-F as a 3700 lb. car capable of reaching 60 mph from a standstill in around 5 to 5.1 seconds, and a ¼-mile time of 13.7 seconds. As to fuel economy and avoiding the Gas Guzzler Tax, it's a no-brainer that putting the LS460 powerplant in a 400-500 lb. lighter body would avoid the dreaded tax handily enough that we can all seriously consider...
The 2UR-FSE Hybrid (5-liter V8, 430+ hp) scenario
This would be simply, as the subtitle implies, placing the LS600hL powertrain in the Lexus IS to create the IS-F. But is it really that simple? As a recent post in the my.IS Roundtable shows us, the penalties involved with a hybrid powertrain are not insignificant. The Lexus GS450h Hybrid exacts a 430 lb. weight increase versus the non-hybrid GS350 with which it shares the 2GR-FSE 3.5-liter V6. A look at the scant specifications available for the Lexus LS600hL reveals that, unlike the GS450h, the V8 hybrid powertrain is available only with all-wheel-drive. Adding AWD to a Lexus IS250 adds a 216-lb. penalty, and the GS350 AWD is 165 lbs. heavier than the RWD version. So, if you start with an estimated 3700 lb. curb weight for a non-hybrid, 4.6-liter V8 IS-F, and add all of the above (plus, the extra 400cc of the 2UR-FSE versus the 1UR-FSE aren't exactly weightless), and you're looking at a 4300-4350 lb. car. Is this what Lexus really wants for the IS-F?
Add to the above a trunk that would shrink from 13 cubic feet to roughly 7.8 cubic feet (to make room for the hybrid batteries), unimproved highway fuel economy and the cost penalties, and the idea of a hybrid IS-F is, hopefully, a non-starter. That leaves us with the most tantalizing possibility for the IS-F's power:
The 2UR-FSE (5-liter V8, 425 hp) scenario
Aside from being the diehard enthusiast's favorite, this possibility is the one most mentioned by Internet articles on the IS-F. Basically, it involves using the 2UR-FSE 5-liter V8 from the upcoming LS600h and LS600hL minus the hybrid hardware and the all-wheel-drive. There would only be a very slight weight penalty versus the circa 3700 lbs. predicted for a 4.6-liter, 1UR-FSE-powered IS-F. 0-60 mph times should easily drop below 5 seconds, to 4.8 or 4.9 seconds. Direct injection is a major game-changer when it comes to extracting both maximum performance fuel economy and maximum fuel economy from an engine. Thus, we'd expect Lexus to pull this one off without incurring a Gas Guzzler Tax penalty.
The transmission: What can we expect?
Naturally, the aforementioned diehard enthusiasts among us are longing and craving for a proper clutch-pedaled manual transmission. Don't count on it, though, and it'll be a major miracle if it happens. For one thing, Toyota/Lexus has NEVER combined a manual transmission with one of their V8s, and neither has archrival Mercedes-Benz, not even in any of its AMG models nor in the McLaren SLR supercar. BMW's original plans for the current V10 M5 and upcoming V8 M3 were for offering them only with the SMG clutchless manual. An uproar from customers led them to relent and offer a traditional manual-with-a-clutch in the new M5. Unfortunately, Car and Driver, in its upcoming February 2007 issue, prefaces a test of the BMW M5 manual against the Audi S6 and Mercedes E63 AMG with "be careful what you wish for". The BMW M5 manual was slower (by about 0.2 seconds) 0-60 mph than the SMG version, and unlike the SMG, the manual doesn't allow for fully turning off the electronic traction and stability control "nannies". This, plus the ever-panned iDrive led to a third (last) place showing by the M5 in this comparison test. And when even a Porsche 911 Turbo is 0.2 seconds faster 0-60 with the Tiptronic automatic than with a traditional manual, it's definitely a new day in performance transmissions, one that we diehard traditionalists lament.
Most sources predict that the Lexus IS-F will use the AA80E 8-speed torque-converter automatic from the Lexus LS460, albeit modified for quicker and sharper shifting response and with steering-wheel paddles (again paralleling the modifications AMG applies to "regular" Mercedes automatics).
There's a school of thought, however, that believes (or hopes) that Lexus will surprise us all with its take on the dual-clutch (but clutch pedal-less) transmission pioneered by Volkswagen/Audi and its DSG. Universally lauded as the best bet to eventually replace both traditional, clutch pedal manual transmissions and torque-converter manumatics, this would certainly be quite a development. And, lest you think that Lexus isn't capable of being a leader in transmission development, we remind you that, beyond having more speeds in its AA80E automatic than anyone else in the world, it wasn't that long ago that pundits were stating that continuously-variable transmissions (CVTs) couldn't handle much beyond the power of a low-stressed small V6. Yet, Lexus proved them all wrong by fitting CVTs to their performance-oriented hybrids (even the upcoming 430-440 hp 5-liter V8 LS600h/hL) without complaints of lack of reliability or massive transmission failures.
The AutoSpies article: Are they right?
We know for a fact that AutoSpies checks out my.IS' Front/Home Page regularly, since they have, in the past, posted our articles on Lexus IS vs BMW 3-Series sales, Tom Milner and Chip Ganassi. Now we're reciprocating and referring to a recent article of theirs titled The plot thickens as rumors of new Lexus IS-F and 2008 BMW M3 escalate. In brief, it claims that both the IS-F and the 2008 BMW M3 will have over 500 hp, with the larger BMW M5 eventually going to 600-700 hp.
Somewhat mystifying is their claim that "new turbo technology allows them to get AT LEAST 100HP per liter". Frankly, we wonder what the big deal is. After all, both BMW itself (with the V10 M5) and a number of Honda 4-cylinder engines have achieved 100 hp-per-liter output without any form of boost nor direct injection, and both the current 6-cylinder BMW M3 and the Honda S2000's engine (in both 2-liter and 2.2-liter iterations) exceeded that specific output without the aforementioned aids. We'll add that Audi's RS4 achieves a 100 hp-per-liter output with direct injection alone, and that more realistic rumors peg the upcoming E90/92/93 BMW M3 4-liter V8 at 400 hp.
Sure, we'd be ecstatic if the IS-F really came with a 500-hp output, but don't count on it.
The Competition: Audi S4/RS4, BMW M3, Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG
The Lexus IS-F will go on sale at a time when the offerings from its archrival German entry-luxury super sports sedan makers are in a state of flux. The 340-hp, 4.2-liter V8 Audi S4 is the only German that will soldier on unchanged in the immediate future, but it's no longer the maximum expression of an Audi A4-based performance sedan. That role has been taken over by the 420-hp Audi RS4, which adds FSI (Audi's take on direct injection) to the S4 V8, which thus enables it to reach a lofty 100-hp-per-liter specific output.
The current E46 BMW M3, with its 3.2-liter, 333-hp inline-6 is currently "on hiatus", as they say in TV-land. Its replacement E90/92/93 2008 BMW M3 is expected to be powered by a 400-hp (or 420-hp, according to Autoweek), 4-liter V8, essentially four-fifths of the BMW M5 sedan's 5-liter, 500-hp V10.
Mercedes-Benz, too, has stopped sending to North America its C55 AMG sedan, which was powered by a 5.5-liter, 362-hp V8. The next-generation, W204 Mercedes C-Class is expected to debut in March 2007 at the Geneva Auto Show, and it'll probably be 6 months to a year after that when we'll see the W204 C63 AMG. It should feature, as its name implies, AMG's latest naturally-aspirated 6.2-liter V8, probably in its mildest 475-hp state of tune as used in the CLK63 AMG (or an even "milder" 450-hp, according to AutoWeek).
The common thread in all this is that 300-something horsepower is no longer adequate for this class of car. Sure, the 380 hp that the "mildest" possible IS-F would have is an improvement over the previous versions of its German rivals, but, increasingly, it seems that you must hit or break the 400-hp barrier to be considered a serious contender in this category.
The Audi RS4 is the only one of the Lexus IS-F's archrivals for which we have official, confirmed specifications. This all-wheel-drive, 3957-lb. sedan goes from 0-60 mph in 4.8 seconds. Edmunds' Inside Line actually managed the 0-60 sprint a tenth of a second faster, and recorded a 1/4 Mile time of 13.2 seconds @ 106.8 mph.
The "lame-duck" E46 BMW M3 coupe is 130 lbs heavier than its "non-M" E46 330Ci counterpart, and the V10 BMW M5 sedan is 198 lbs. heavier than the V8 BMW 550i sedan, so it seems safe to predict that the V8 E92 BMW M3 coupe will weigh in at around 3750 lbs., some 180 lbs. over the inline-6 E92 BMW 335i coupe. A 0-60 mph time in the 4.7-second vicinity appears to be a safe bet.
Trickiest to predict are the specs for the as-yet-unreleased W204 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG. Its W203 C55 AMG predecessor weighed in at 3540 lbs. and went from 0-60 mph in 5 seconds, and the quarter mile arrived in 13.5 sec. at 106.6 mph. Arguably, the current AMG model that provides the closest point of reference for the performance of a future W204 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG is the CLK63 AMG Cabriolet, which is propelled by a 475-hp version of the 6.2-liter AMG V8, weighs 3960 lbs., and goes from 0-60 mph in 4.5 seconds.
Here is the full add
Also, and I'm not sure if this has been posted here already, but this is a video of the IS-F at the 'Ring.
Here is an article posted by jruhi4 from my.is:
Contains speculation on engine, transmission and the IS-F's competiton.
The Lexus IS-F: the V8 migrates to Lexus' smallest RWD vehicle. But which V8?
As is customary in Lexus' recent pattern of new product launches, the company is, at this point, being coy about which V8 will power the IS-F, how much horsepower it will pack, or even if the IS-F will or won't be a hybrid. And anyone who's been following all the IS-F rumo(u)rs and commentary will find that their head is spinning from all the contradictory information out there.
The 1UR-FSE (4.6-liter V8, 380 hp) scenario
The most straightforward possibility would seem to be that the IS-F would be powered by Lexus' first all-new V8 since the marque was launched back in late 1989: the 1UR-FSE V8 which powers the 4th-generation Lexus LS460 and LS460L. With its unique direct injection/port injection combination, it represents a quantum leap over its predecessor, the 3UZ-FE 4.3-liter, 278 hp V8. The 1UR-FSE is a 4.6-liter V8 which produces 380 hp at its 6400 rpm redline, and 367 lb/ft of torque@4100 rpm. It propels the LS460 from a standstill to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds.
Predicting its performance in a Lexus IS-F is a dicey proposition, since the new 1UR-FSE 4.6-liter V8 hasn't yet migrated to the Lexus GS, the IS's larger platform-mate. One of the closest apples-to-apples comparisons would be between the 3rd-generation GS350 and the 2nd-generation IS350, which is 177 lbs lighter than its larger sibling. Lexus' conflicting numbers, however, threaten to make this 'mission impossible". While Lexus is consistent in posting a 0-60 mph acceleration time of 5.7 seconds for the GS350, confusion reigns as far as the IS350 figures. Is it 5.6 seconds, as per the Lexus North American Pressroom and the 2006 IS brochure, or 5.3 seconds, as per the Lexus USA website? The other feasible comparison would be between the 3rd-generation GS430 and the 3rd-generation LS430, where the former's 242 lb. weight advantage knocks two-tenths of a second off the larger LS's 5.9 second 0-60 time.
Equally tricky is trying to determine the weight penalty the IS-F would incur versus the IS350. It's certainly encouraging to view the GS350 versus GS430 curb weight figures and see that the V8 is only 43 lbs heavier than the V6. Before you get all excited, however, note that the 4th-generation LS460 gained 254 lbs versus the 3rd-generation LS430. And, with a 300cc larger V8 with a more complex direct injection/port injection system, it's a near-certainty that the upcoming Lexus GS460 will heavier overall than the GS430.
A very haphazard guess, then, would put a 1UR-FSE 4.6-liter V8-powered IS-F as a 3700 lb. car capable of reaching 60 mph from a standstill in around 5 to 5.1 seconds, and a ¼-mile time of 13.7 seconds. As to fuel economy and avoiding the Gas Guzzler Tax, it's a no-brainer that putting the LS460 powerplant in a 400-500 lb. lighter body would avoid the dreaded tax handily enough that we can all seriously consider...
The 2UR-FSE Hybrid (5-liter V8, 430+ hp) scenario
This would be simply, as the subtitle implies, placing the LS600hL powertrain in the Lexus IS to create the IS-F. But is it really that simple? As a recent post in the my.IS Roundtable shows us, the penalties involved with a hybrid powertrain are not insignificant. The Lexus GS450h Hybrid exacts a 430 lb. weight increase versus the non-hybrid GS350 with which it shares the 2GR-FSE 3.5-liter V6. A look at the scant specifications available for the Lexus LS600hL reveals that, unlike the GS450h, the V8 hybrid powertrain is available only with all-wheel-drive. Adding AWD to a Lexus IS250 adds a 216-lb. penalty, and the GS350 AWD is 165 lbs. heavier than the RWD version. So, if you start with an estimated 3700 lb. curb weight for a non-hybrid, 4.6-liter V8 IS-F, and add all of the above (plus, the extra 400cc of the 2UR-FSE versus the 1UR-FSE aren't exactly weightless), and you're looking at a 4300-4350 lb. car. Is this what Lexus really wants for the IS-F?
Add to the above a trunk that would shrink from 13 cubic feet to roughly 7.8 cubic feet (to make room for the hybrid batteries), unimproved highway fuel economy and the cost penalties, and the idea of a hybrid IS-F is, hopefully, a non-starter. That leaves us with the most tantalizing possibility for the IS-F's power:
The 2UR-FSE (5-liter V8, 425 hp) scenario
Aside from being the diehard enthusiast's favorite, this possibility is the one most mentioned by Internet articles on the IS-F. Basically, it involves using the 2UR-FSE 5-liter V8 from the upcoming LS600h and LS600hL minus the hybrid hardware and the all-wheel-drive. There would only be a very slight weight penalty versus the circa 3700 lbs. predicted for a 4.6-liter, 1UR-FSE-powered IS-F. 0-60 mph times should easily drop below 5 seconds, to 4.8 or 4.9 seconds. Direct injection is a major game-changer when it comes to extracting both maximum performance fuel economy and maximum fuel economy from an engine. Thus, we'd expect Lexus to pull this one off without incurring a Gas Guzzler Tax penalty.
The transmission: What can we expect?
Naturally, the aforementioned diehard enthusiasts among us are longing and craving for a proper clutch-pedaled manual transmission. Don't count on it, though, and it'll be a major miracle if it happens. For one thing, Toyota/Lexus has NEVER combined a manual transmission with one of their V8s, and neither has archrival Mercedes-Benz, not even in any of its AMG models nor in the McLaren SLR supercar. BMW's original plans for the current V10 M5 and upcoming V8 M3 were for offering them only with the SMG clutchless manual. An uproar from customers led them to relent and offer a traditional manual-with-a-clutch in the new M5. Unfortunately, Car and Driver, in its upcoming February 2007 issue, prefaces a test of the BMW M5 manual against the Audi S6 and Mercedes E63 AMG with "be careful what you wish for". The BMW M5 manual was slower (by about 0.2 seconds) 0-60 mph than the SMG version, and unlike the SMG, the manual doesn't allow for fully turning off the electronic traction and stability control "nannies". This, plus the ever-panned iDrive led to a third (last) place showing by the M5 in this comparison test. And when even a Porsche 911 Turbo is 0.2 seconds faster 0-60 with the Tiptronic automatic than with a traditional manual, it's definitely a new day in performance transmissions, one that we diehard traditionalists lament.
Most sources predict that the Lexus IS-F will use the AA80E 8-speed torque-converter automatic from the Lexus LS460, albeit modified for quicker and sharper shifting response and with steering-wheel paddles (again paralleling the modifications AMG applies to "regular" Mercedes automatics).
There's a school of thought, however, that believes (or hopes) that Lexus will surprise us all with its take on the dual-clutch (but clutch pedal-less) transmission pioneered by Volkswagen/Audi and its DSG. Universally lauded as the best bet to eventually replace both traditional, clutch pedal manual transmissions and torque-converter manumatics, this would certainly be quite a development. And, lest you think that Lexus isn't capable of being a leader in transmission development, we remind you that, beyond having more speeds in its AA80E automatic than anyone else in the world, it wasn't that long ago that pundits were stating that continuously-variable transmissions (CVTs) couldn't handle much beyond the power of a low-stressed small V6. Yet, Lexus proved them all wrong by fitting CVTs to their performance-oriented hybrids (even the upcoming 430-440 hp 5-liter V8 LS600h/hL) without complaints of lack of reliability or massive transmission failures.
The AutoSpies article: Are they right?
We know for a fact that AutoSpies checks out my.IS' Front/Home Page regularly, since they have, in the past, posted our articles on Lexus IS vs BMW 3-Series sales, Tom Milner and Chip Ganassi. Now we're reciprocating and referring to a recent article of theirs titled The plot thickens as rumors of new Lexus IS-F and 2008 BMW M3 escalate. In brief, it claims that both the IS-F and the 2008 BMW M3 will have over 500 hp, with the larger BMW M5 eventually going to 600-700 hp.
Somewhat mystifying is their claim that "new turbo technology allows them to get AT LEAST 100HP per liter". Frankly, we wonder what the big deal is. After all, both BMW itself (with the V10 M5) and a number of Honda 4-cylinder engines have achieved 100 hp-per-liter output without any form of boost nor direct injection, and both the current 6-cylinder BMW M3 and the Honda S2000's engine (in both 2-liter and 2.2-liter iterations) exceeded that specific output without the aforementioned aids. We'll add that Audi's RS4 achieves a 100 hp-per-liter output with direct injection alone, and that more realistic rumors peg the upcoming E90/92/93 BMW M3 4-liter V8 at 400 hp.
Sure, we'd be ecstatic if the IS-F really came with a 500-hp output, but don't count on it.
The Competition: Audi S4/RS4, BMW M3, Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG
The Lexus IS-F will go on sale at a time when the offerings from its archrival German entry-luxury super sports sedan makers are in a state of flux. The 340-hp, 4.2-liter V8 Audi S4 is the only German that will soldier on unchanged in the immediate future, but it's no longer the maximum expression of an Audi A4-based performance sedan. That role has been taken over by the 420-hp Audi RS4, which adds FSI (Audi's take on direct injection) to the S4 V8, which thus enables it to reach a lofty 100-hp-per-liter specific output.
The current E46 BMW M3, with its 3.2-liter, 333-hp inline-6 is currently "on hiatus", as they say in TV-land. Its replacement E90/92/93 2008 BMW M3 is expected to be powered by a 400-hp (or 420-hp, according to Autoweek), 4-liter V8, essentially four-fifths of the BMW M5 sedan's 5-liter, 500-hp V10.
Mercedes-Benz, too, has stopped sending to North America its C55 AMG sedan, which was powered by a 5.5-liter, 362-hp V8. The next-generation, W204 Mercedes C-Class is expected to debut in March 2007 at the Geneva Auto Show, and it'll probably be 6 months to a year after that when we'll see the W204 C63 AMG. It should feature, as its name implies, AMG's latest naturally-aspirated 6.2-liter V8, probably in its mildest 475-hp state of tune as used in the CLK63 AMG (or an even "milder" 450-hp, according to AutoWeek).
The common thread in all this is that 300-something horsepower is no longer adequate for this class of car. Sure, the 380 hp that the "mildest" possible IS-F would have is an improvement over the previous versions of its German rivals, but, increasingly, it seems that you must hit or break the 400-hp barrier to be considered a serious contender in this category.
The Audi RS4 is the only one of the Lexus IS-F's archrivals for which we have official, confirmed specifications. This all-wheel-drive, 3957-lb. sedan goes from 0-60 mph in 4.8 seconds. Edmunds' Inside Line actually managed the 0-60 sprint a tenth of a second faster, and recorded a 1/4 Mile time of 13.2 seconds @ 106.8 mph.
The "lame-duck" E46 BMW M3 coupe is 130 lbs heavier than its "non-M" E46 330Ci counterpart, and the V10 BMW M5 sedan is 198 lbs. heavier than the V8 BMW 550i sedan, so it seems safe to predict that the V8 E92 BMW M3 coupe will weigh in at around 3750 lbs., some 180 lbs. over the inline-6 E92 BMW 335i coupe. A 0-60 mph time in the 4.7-second vicinity appears to be a safe bet.
Trickiest to predict are the specs for the as-yet-unreleased W204 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG. Its W203 C55 AMG predecessor weighed in at 3540 lbs. and went from 0-60 mph in 5 seconds, and the quarter mile arrived in 13.5 sec. at 106.6 mph. Arguably, the current AMG model that provides the closest point of reference for the performance of a future W204 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG is the CLK63 AMG Cabriolet, which is propelled by a 475-hp version of the 6.2-liter AMG V8, weighs 3960 lbs., and goes from 0-60 mph in 4.5 seconds.
- 1,579
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Nice post boombexus, a very interesting read. I do get a bit of a feeling that they may be over thinking the future of the IS-F, however they are more than likely, mostly correct in hoping for a 400-425 BHP version of the 4.6L or 5.0L V8. However, I would like to point out that Toyota could go the "cheap" route and use the new 5.7L i-Force V8 from the Tundra, albeit modified with the new TRD supercharger, good for a bit over 400 BHP. But that engine may be "below" that of Lexus anyway.
One thing of note is the lack of mention of Lexus' growing arch-rival, that of Cadillac, of course in the form of the CTS-V. Certainly, the next Sigma II car has yet to debut (should in the next two or so days), however the rumors continue to fly over the next V-series version. Considering that it will costs less than the M3, RS4, and the C63, and presumably will be nearly the same as the IS-F, it will be a comparison of brute strength and Nurburgring-engineering expertise for this car. Considering that Cadillac is probably going to utilize the 7.0L LS7 from the Z06, the American minds behind Cadillac pretty much are living up to the American stereotypes of yore.
...What will be interesting is whether or not Lexus will compete in SCCA racing with the IS-F. Cadillac has had a lot of success with their CTS-V, and no doubt BMW and Audi have had their share of the light as well. Some racing on the road courses would be a bit interesting between the rivals, and yet, I have an even better idea...
Why doesn't Lexus just cram in the 348ci, four-barrel, 600+ BHP V8 from the NASCAR program? (lol)
One thing of note is the lack of mention of Lexus' growing arch-rival, that of Cadillac, of course in the form of the CTS-V. Certainly, the next Sigma II car has yet to debut (should in the next two or so days), however the rumors continue to fly over the next V-series version. Considering that it will costs less than the M3, RS4, and the C63, and presumably will be nearly the same as the IS-F, it will be a comparison of brute strength and Nurburgring-engineering expertise for this car. Considering that Cadillac is probably going to utilize the 7.0L LS7 from the Z06, the American minds behind Cadillac pretty much are living up to the American stereotypes of yore.
...What will be interesting is whether or not Lexus will compete in SCCA racing with the IS-F. Cadillac has had a lot of success with their CTS-V, and no doubt BMW and Audi have had their share of the light as well. Some racing on the road courses would be a bit interesting between the rivals, and yet, I have an even better idea...
Why doesn't Lexus just cram in the 348ci, four-barrel, 600+ BHP V8 from the NASCAR program? (lol)
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
LLN.com
So 400 BHP and an eight-speed automatic makes Lexus think they can run with the RS4 and the M3? Hmmm, I think they may be a bit disappointed. Considering that this doesn't outrun the BMW 335i (based on Lexus' speed tests), how much can we expect from the car against the Germans, and even the lone American?
I want to see some more in-depth specs from Lexus down the road, but to me, it doesn't look like enough to make a difference...
(BTW: I'm still waiting for my 348ci 4-barrel Toyota or Lexus coupe...)
- 10,620
- gtp_jimprower
To expand a bit on what YSSMAN already added:
Lexus Unveils Two High-Performance Vehicles at the 2007 North American International Auto Show
Related Media
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01/08/2007 Detroit
January 8, 2007 - Detroit - Lexus unveiled the IS-F high-performance luxury sedan and the LF-A sports-car concept at a press conference today at the 2007 North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) in Detroit.
The all-new 2008 IS-F high-performance luxury sedan will deliver more than 400 horsepower from a 5.0-liter V8 engine when it goes into production. The LF-A supercar concept is equipped with a V10 engine that produces more than 500 horsepower. Together, the two exciting new cars make a dramatic statement of Lexus performance.
This explains where the "F" comes from.
The IS-F and LF-A are very different vehicles, yet they share the same DNA, design philosophy, and heritage. Prominent in both vehicles, the "F" designation was first conceived nearly 20 years ago with a project internally coded "Circle-F," with the "F" standing for "flagship." This was the original code for what became the Lexus Division. The Circle-F designation further evolved into the code name Flagship One, or F1, and the first F1 concept developed into Lexus' first vehicle, the LS. Since then, the "F" code has come to signify a special vehicle program within Lexus that falls outside the normal engineering and development process.
"Lexus has long been perceived as the maker of mainstream luxury vehicles, but the unveiling of the IS-F and LF-A not only changes this perception, it also introduces a new Lexus marque," said Bob Carter, Lexus Division group vice president and general manager. "The 'F' shared by both vehicles is the signature for a new high-performance marque conceived by an engineering team that dared to turn their dream of 'a Lexus like no other' into a reality."
IS-F Performance Sedan
Much of the development of the new IS-F took place at Fuji Speedway and the Higashi-Fuji Technical Center in Japan. The IS-F is based on the proven rear-wheel-drive Lexus IS, which is equipped with a double-wishbone front and multi-link rear suspension. As well as the IS performs, Lexus engineers demanded much more of the all-new IS-F. The result is a performance tuned 5.0-liter V8 engine, topped with specially engineered heads fed by a two-stage intake system, that produces 400-plus horsepower and more than 350 ft.-lbs. of torque. The all-new IS-F is equipped with engine-oil and transmission-fluid coolers for high-speed performance and a cylinder head-scavenging oil pump for high g-force driving.
The IS-F engine is mated to the world's first eight-speed direct sport-shift transmission. A new torque-converter lock-up control was developed that allows for a direct, crisp gear change through the constant lock-up of the torque converter in second through eighth gears. In Drive mode, the IS-F transmission performs with great smoothness, and the torque converter allows for great launch ability for fast standing-start acceleration that will register a zero-to-60 time in less than 4.9 seconds.
This unique transmission also features an advanced Manual mode. A pair of paddles located within a fingertip's reach behind the steering wheel enables the driver to make ultra-fast up-shift gear changes within a tenth of a second. Downshifts are accompanied by automated and incredibly precise throttle blips to match engine RPM to vehicle speed.
The impressive acceleration achieved by the IS-F requires it be equipped with heavy-duty Brembo brakes designed to the specifications of the Lexus engineering team. Huge, 14.2-inch cross-drilled front discs are gripped by rigid, powerful six-piston aluminum calipers, while 13.6-inch rear cross-drilled discs feature two-piston calipers. High-friction brake pads are equipped on all four wheels. The brakes are finished with the Lexus name displayed on the calipers, a first for a Lexus production vehicle.
The IS-F features custom-designed 19-inch forged alloy wheels as standard. The wheels were built to Lexus specifications by BBS and are surrounded by high-performance sport tires.
The attention to performance also extends to a modified suspension that lowers the entire car by more than a half-inch when compared to the base IS, and one full inch when compared to IS models equipped with 18-inch wheels. This specially modified suspension allows for an exciting and energetic drive, whether on a race track or the streets.
The IS-F features an all-new three-mode version of Lexus' Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management (VDIM) system. In addition to the Normal mode, the new VDIM features a Sport mode that allows the driver to push the car even further before its braking-, throttle- and steering-control systems kick in. The third VDIM system mode is Off, which allows the driver to push the IS-F to its ultimate level of handling performance.
The attention to performance is complemented by modified styling cues that differentiate the IS-F from the standard IS. Lexus engineers provided the IS-F with a dual-exhaust system and quad-tail pipes, wider front fenders, and a larger grille and rear spoiler. Both the hood and lower intake were enlarged to accommodate and cool the V8 engine.
Like the exterior, the interior of the IS-F receives unique styling with aluminized composite trim and special surface treatments. The instrument panel includes an oil-temperature gauge and shift indicator-lights, while the "F" logo is showcased on the steering wheel and rear-center console.
In addition to the usual Lexus standards of comfort and convenience, the interior of the IS-F features specially shaped and trimmed seats, which hold the driver comfortably and securely in place. The special sport seats are available in black or a unique high-contrast white and black trim.
"The intent of creating the IS-F was not to be a competitor to other performance-sport sedans," said Carter. "Rather, the goal was to create a true performance sedan in a uniquely Lexus way-one that is totally authentic with a unique interpretation of raw driving thrill at all speeds and provides a whole new definition of 'usable power.'"
The IS-F will arrive at Lexus dealerships in early 2008.
LF-A Sports Car Concept
The LF-A sports-car concept was originally shown at the 2005 NAIAS to express a bold new direction in styling for the Lexus brand. The goals for the new LF-A are no different than they were with the original concept: To build a supercar with world-class performance that is uniquely Lexus.
As with all new Lexus vehicles, the styling of the LF-A is rooted in a design direction called L-finesse. The concept of L-finesse was used to shape and detail the original LF-A, and it was used to reshape, redetail and redefine this latest version. Lexus has further refined the styling of the new LF-A to enhance its exotic nature with a greater use of curved surfaces and interesting details.
The running gear of the LF-A is just as it was with the original, powered by a high-revving 500-plus horsepower V10 engine. Its front mid-engine placement, along with a rear-mounted transaxle and rear-mounted radiators, allows for excellent weight distribution. The horsepower, superior aerodynamics, and revised styling makes a top speed of 200 mph not only possible but probable.
An "F" logo, indicating the vehicle's status as a part of the new "F" marque, is located on each front fender.
"The first LF-A was a pure concept, but one that we went so far as to conduct engineering analysis on," said Carter. "This latest concept is much closer to a vehicle that we would bring to market, and one in which we will be gauging consumer interest."
Lexus IS-F Preliminary Specifications
Powertrain
Engine: 5.0 Liter V8
Estimated Horsepower: More than 400
Estimated Torque: More than 350 lb.-ft.
Transmission: Eight-speed direct paddle sport shift gear box
Brakes
Large diameter cross-drilled discs
Front/Rear: 14.2 inches/13.6 inches
Opposed aluminum calipers
Front/Rear: Six piston/two piston
Wheels
Forged aluminum wheels
Front: 225/40R19 (19 x8)
Rear: 255/35R19 (19 x 9)
Performance
0-60 MPH Acceleration: Under 4.9 seconds
Fuel Economy: TBD
Emissions Rating: ULEV II
Dimensions (inches)
Overall Length: 183.5
Overall Width: 71.5
Overall Height: 55.5
Wheelbase: 107.5
Lexus Unveils Two High-Performance Vehicles at the 2007 North American International Auto Show
Related Media
*
*
01/08/2007 Detroit
January 8, 2007 - Detroit - Lexus unveiled the IS-F high-performance luxury sedan and the LF-A sports-car concept at a press conference today at the 2007 North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) in Detroit.
The all-new 2008 IS-F high-performance luxury sedan will deliver more than 400 horsepower from a 5.0-liter V8 engine when it goes into production. The LF-A supercar concept is equipped with a V10 engine that produces more than 500 horsepower. Together, the two exciting new cars make a dramatic statement of Lexus performance.
This explains where the "F" comes from.
The IS-F and LF-A are very different vehicles, yet they share the same DNA, design philosophy, and heritage. Prominent in both vehicles, the "F" designation was first conceived nearly 20 years ago with a project internally coded "Circle-F," with the "F" standing for "flagship." This was the original code for what became the Lexus Division. The Circle-F designation further evolved into the code name Flagship One, or F1, and the first F1 concept developed into Lexus' first vehicle, the LS. Since then, the "F" code has come to signify a special vehicle program within Lexus that falls outside the normal engineering and development process.
"Lexus has long been perceived as the maker of mainstream luxury vehicles, but the unveiling of the IS-F and LF-A not only changes this perception, it also introduces a new Lexus marque," said Bob Carter, Lexus Division group vice president and general manager. "The 'F' shared by both vehicles is the signature for a new high-performance marque conceived by an engineering team that dared to turn their dream of 'a Lexus like no other' into a reality."
IS-F Performance Sedan
Much of the development of the new IS-F took place at Fuji Speedway and the Higashi-Fuji Technical Center in Japan. The IS-F is based on the proven rear-wheel-drive Lexus IS, which is equipped with a double-wishbone front and multi-link rear suspension. As well as the IS performs, Lexus engineers demanded much more of the all-new IS-F. The result is a performance tuned 5.0-liter V8 engine, topped with specially engineered heads fed by a two-stage intake system, that produces 400-plus horsepower and more than 350 ft.-lbs. of torque. The all-new IS-F is equipped with engine-oil and transmission-fluid coolers for high-speed performance and a cylinder head-scavenging oil pump for high g-force driving.
The IS-F engine is mated to the world's first eight-speed direct sport-shift transmission. A new torque-converter lock-up control was developed that allows for a direct, crisp gear change through the constant lock-up of the torque converter in second through eighth gears. In Drive mode, the IS-F transmission performs with great smoothness, and the torque converter allows for great launch ability for fast standing-start acceleration that will register a zero-to-60 time in less than 4.9 seconds.
This unique transmission also features an advanced Manual mode. A pair of paddles located within a fingertip's reach behind the steering wheel enables the driver to make ultra-fast up-shift gear changes within a tenth of a second. Downshifts are accompanied by automated and incredibly precise throttle blips to match engine RPM to vehicle speed.
The impressive acceleration achieved by the IS-F requires it be equipped with heavy-duty Brembo brakes designed to the specifications of the Lexus engineering team. Huge, 14.2-inch cross-drilled front discs are gripped by rigid, powerful six-piston aluminum calipers, while 13.6-inch rear cross-drilled discs feature two-piston calipers. High-friction brake pads are equipped on all four wheels. The brakes are finished with the Lexus name displayed on the calipers, a first for a Lexus production vehicle.
The IS-F features custom-designed 19-inch forged alloy wheels as standard. The wheels were built to Lexus specifications by BBS and are surrounded by high-performance sport tires.
The attention to performance also extends to a modified suspension that lowers the entire car by more than a half-inch when compared to the base IS, and one full inch when compared to IS models equipped with 18-inch wheels. This specially modified suspension allows for an exciting and energetic drive, whether on a race track or the streets.
The IS-F features an all-new three-mode version of Lexus' Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management (VDIM) system. In addition to the Normal mode, the new VDIM features a Sport mode that allows the driver to push the car even further before its braking-, throttle- and steering-control systems kick in. The third VDIM system mode is Off, which allows the driver to push the IS-F to its ultimate level of handling performance.
The attention to performance is complemented by modified styling cues that differentiate the IS-F from the standard IS. Lexus engineers provided the IS-F with a dual-exhaust system and quad-tail pipes, wider front fenders, and a larger grille and rear spoiler. Both the hood and lower intake were enlarged to accommodate and cool the V8 engine.
Like the exterior, the interior of the IS-F receives unique styling with aluminized composite trim and special surface treatments. The instrument panel includes an oil-temperature gauge and shift indicator-lights, while the "F" logo is showcased on the steering wheel and rear-center console.
In addition to the usual Lexus standards of comfort and convenience, the interior of the IS-F features specially shaped and trimmed seats, which hold the driver comfortably and securely in place. The special sport seats are available in black or a unique high-contrast white and black trim.
"The intent of creating the IS-F was not to be a competitor to other performance-sport sedans," said Carter. "Rather, the goal was to create a true performance sedan in a uniquely Lexus way-one that is totally authentic with a unique interpretation of raw driving thrill at all speeds and provides a whole new definition of 'usable power.'"
The IS-F will arrive at Lexus dealerships in early 2008.
LF-A Sports Car Concept
The LF-A sports-car concept was originally shown at the 2005 NAIAS to express a bold new direction in styling for the Lexus brand. The goals for the new LF-A are no different than they were with the original concept: To build a supercar with world-class performance that is uniquely Lexus.
As with all new Lexus vehicles, the styling of the LF-A is rooted in a design direction called L-finesse. The concept of L-finesse was used to shape and detail the original LF-A, and it was used to reshape, redetail and redefine this latest version. Lexus has further refined the styling of the new LF-A to enhance its exotic nature with a greater use of curved surfaces and interesting details.
The running gear of the LF-A is just as it was with the original, powered by a high-revving 500-plus horsepower V10 engine. Its front mid-engine placement, along with a rear-mounted transaxle and rear-mounted radiators, allows for excellent weight distribution. The horsepower, superior aerodynamics, and revised styling makes a top speed of 200 mph not only possible but probable.
An "F" logo, indicating the vehicle's status as a part of the new "F" marque, is located on each front fender.
"The first LF-A was a pure concept, but one that we went so far as to conduct engineering analysis on," said Carter. "This latest concept is much closer to a vehicle that we would bring to market, and one in which we will be gauging consumer interest."
Lexus IS-F Preliminary Specifications
Powertrain
Engine: 5.0 Liter V8
Estimated Horsepower: More than 400
Estimated Torque: More than 350 lb.-ft.
Transmission: Eight-speed direct paddle sport shift gear box
Brakes
Large diameter cross-drilled discs
Front/Rear: 14.2 inches/13.6 inches
Opposed aluminum calipers
Front/Rear: Six piston/two piston
Wheels
Forged aluminum wheels
Front: 225/40R19 (19 x8)
Rear: 255/35R19 (19 x 9)
Performance
0-60 MPH Acceleration: Under 4.9 seconds
Fuel Economy: TBD
Emissions Rating: ULEV II
Dimensions (inches)
Overall Length: 183.5
Overall Width: 71.5
Overall Height: 55.5
Wheelbase: 107.5
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- 10,620
- gtp_jimprower
The Five-oh, no Hybrid. >:-)
Well, it's still a slushbox, but I suppose if it heel-and-toes for you, It'll be okay. I hope that one thing, fully-defeatable stability control, appears on this car...
If so, look out, Toyota still knows their speedsters.
Well, it's still a slushbox, but I suppose if it heel-and-toes for you, It'll be okay. I hope that one thing, fully-defeatable stability control, appears on this car...
If so, look out, Toyota still knows their speedsters.
It actually comes in 3 modes. Full on, sports and full off.- 274
Wow.
Lexus IS-F: how to take design cues from Chris Bangle and make a car look even uglier.
Disclaimer:
Hey. My opinion.Don't like? Ignore list is your friend.
Lexus IS-F: how to take design cues from Chris Bangle and make a car look even uglier.
Disclaimer:
Hey. My opinion.Don't like? Ignore list is your friend.
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