Loose change conspiracy

[Duke]

make a structure, then put a hole in the side of it and see if it falls straight down.

Did you miss the all videos and high-res stills? It didn't fall straight down. The whole upper portion of each tower tilted over at least 15-20 degrees before it started to collapse.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Please, back that up.

His cousing owns Fox news... and he's the president... and he's a media whore...

You know, Canadian Speed, you talk about not just believing everything you are told. That is fine and good but be sure to listen to yourself when you look at The Loose Change Conspiracy. They conveniently gloss over details or flatout lie. Example: They claim that there was no plane wreckage found at the Pentagon site. I have seen pictures (some in the article I just posted) that are different from the ones TLC show and they have pieces of wreckage with part of the airline logo and even one with the landing gear inside the Pentagon. The moment a conspiracy shows ignorance or dishonesty it completely falls apart and TLC has done that in my book.

FK , My postings on this thread is more geared to the conspiracy theories surrounding Bush and his administration in general... As this happens to fall into what I was getting at, I made a few posts and asked a few questions... Provided links to the comments I made and so on... If you don't like the subject, or the thread, simply ignore it...

You guys do realize that the towers were built with two things in mind? 1) Withstand a 737 airliner collusion. 2) Fall straight down and not to side

2) was done so that a few blocks weren't obliterated if/when they fell. Imagine if one of those towers fell sideways. It would take out 6-10 blocks. That's a lot of destruction.

I wasn't aware that the WTC was build from the center out... Had I known that, it would have cleared a lot of things up. I've never really seen a building built like that before, as I'm not really into building specs and so on... A typical building is built on a frame, that's what I envisioned, so if that were the case, which you all now say is not the case, you could see what I was getting at I would think... And yes, that would have been a lot of destruction.

it was a tragic terrorist attack.

100%, no argument there... It's too bad it ever happened.

 

[FoolKiller]

His cousing owns Fox news

I assume you meant cousin. I Googled just to make sure I didn't miss something. All I thought I knew was confirmed. That is:
1) Fox News is not THE media, just one channel. 2) Fox News is a subsidiary of Newscorp, owned by Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes is CEO of Fox News. 3) The only Bush cousin with an association with Fox News is John Ellis who is a freelance political advisor that Fox contracted to head their political table in the 2000 election. He called Bush as the winner of Florida first.

... and he's the president...

And? We have a free press in America. It is not state run, except NPR and PBS, which both seem to hate Bush.

and he's a media whore...

Name one politician who isn't.

And if he controls the media then explain this study.

FK , My postings on this thread is more geared to the conspiracy theories surrounding Bush and his administration in general... As this happens to fall into what I was getting at, I made a few posts and asked a few questions... Provided links to the comments I made and so on... If you don't like the subject, or the thread, simply ignore it...

I was just taking your comments and responding to them in a way that stayed on topic.

 

[Niels]

Well since the locked 9/11 threads are redirected to post 15 of this thread all the time, I'll take advantage of those redirections by bumping it up again

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=loose+change&pr=goog-sl

So I have just watched this movie because one of the locked topics refered to it, and I had nothing to do anyway.
Duke, post 15 was really smart, but I cant expect you to cover EVERYTHING in that post right away.

I just wonder what happened to these things:
-Why didn't the gouverment release the security tapes of the buildings surrounding the Pentagon?
-Has there really been a claim that a passport from one of the terrorists of the WTC was found?! while..
-The blackboxes are just gone? Or have never been really investigated?
-What explains the hotspots found in the basement of the twin towers? The hotspots that were twice as hot as the raging inferno in the upper part of the world trade center?
-This is weard: Al Quaida COMPLETELY knew the weak spots of the Twin Towers right? The WTC was build for a plane crash into it, I heard once? Well if Al Quaida thought it out that well, why would they hit the Pentagon in the renovated section That would mean there had been a huge difference in the preperation of the Pentagon compared to the WTC, almost looking like 2 completely seperate attacks.
-Cellphone calls from the hostages in the planes, while it's almost impossible to get a connection at high altitudes.
-Post 15 had images of the engine proving that there WAS a plane, but I think it could STILL be from a rocket seeing that a rocket needs an engine too.

I mean I believe everything happens with logic behind it. But half of the 9/11 stuff just doesn't make sence I'm not out to believe this conspiracy stuff, heck I would be glad if someone could assure me that gouverments can be trusted. But this kinda leaves me unanswered and kinda...scared because after all, there COULD still be a possibilty that this was done by their own gouverment.

 

[Dave A]

To answer the last two, height won't prevent a signal on yor phone, distance from an antenna will. If a plane is flying over a city then it's going to flying over loads of antenna's, you should be able to hold a conversationon a phone without any problems until the plane flys into an area where there are no antenna's nearby. You'll get slight breakups in a conversation when using your phone on a plane because your signal will e jumping from one antenna to another a lot faster and more frequently than it would in a car or on a train. But as long as your phones signal is within reach of an antenna ther should be no reason why you can't phone someone.

The last one if I recall, showed a jet turbine engine as seen on a plane that was a hell of a lot bigger than any jet turbines you'll see fitted to a rocket.

 

[Swift]

I mean I believe everything happens with logic behind it. But half of the 9/11 stuff just doesn't make sence I'm not out to believe this conspiracy stuff, heck I would be glad if someone could assure me that gouverments can be trusted. But this kinda leaves me unanswered and kinda...scared because after all, there COULD still be a possibilty that this was done by their own gouverment.

It was a terrorist attack. OF course it doesn't make sense.

 

[Niels]

To answer the last two, height won't prevent a signal on yor phone, distance from an antenna will. If a plane is flying over a city then it's going to flying over loads of antenna's, you should be able to hold a conversationon a phone without any problems until the plane flys into an area where there are no antenna's nearby. You'll get slight breakups in a conversation when using your phone on a plane because your signal will e jumping from one antenna to another a lot faster and more frequently than it would in a car or on a train. But as long as your phones signal is within reach of an antenna ther should be no reason why you can't phone someone.

The last one if I recall, showed a jet turbine engine as seen on a plane that was a hell of a lot bigger than any jet turbines you'll see fitted to a rocket.

Well I cant expect everyone to be as bored as me and watch a 80 minute google vid about it, but in the video they said it was tested that at normal cruise height the chance that you can get connection is 0.006 and will still be low at lower altitude, cause I agree in the last phases of the flight, the planes were obviously in a decent.
But that still doesn't take away the 26 minute phone call that a stewardess had with American Airlines. It's a very solid conspiracy theory you know.

OF course it doesn't make sense.

Well so far I've always seen a reason, and logic behind a terrorist attack. The sheer size of 9/11 alone caused alot of confusion, but now I start thinking about it again...

 

[FoolKiller]

I'll try answering what I can.

-Why didn't the gouverment release the security tapes of the buildings surrounding the Pentagon?

They just now released United Flight 93 recordings. Ongoing investigations mean they do NOT release the evidence. It's the same for anything unless it will help them to catch the perpetrators.

-Has there really been a claim that a passport from one of the terrorists of the WTC was found?! while..
-The blackboxes are just gone? Or have never been really investigated?

That's new to me.

-This is weard: Al Quaida COMPLETELY knew the weak spots of the Twin Towers right? The WTC was build for a plane crash into it, I heard once? Well if Al Quaida thought it out that well, why would they hit the Pentagon in the renovated section That would mean there had been a huge difference in the preperation of the Pentagon compared to the WTC, almost looking like 2 completely seperate attacks.

Well, in al Qaeda tapes released afterwards bin Laden said they were trying to topple the buildings or just cause a panic. The collapse that happened like it did was unexpected and not planned.

For other questions I will direct you to an article that I have posted twice in this thread alone. They also show images of plane wreckage other than the engine, like metal with the airline logo still showing and a plane tire. Do rockets have tires?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

 

[Zardoz]

...Do rockets have tires?

Do dogs have wings?

Here's a blurb by Jim Hoffman, a conspiracy theorist who is apparently pretty respected in the conspiracy theory community. He demolishes the no-airliner-hit-the-Pentagon nonsense, and tries to reason with his fellow CT afficionados, pleading that their silly missile theory makes the whole 9/11 conspiracy movement look bad.

The Pentagon No-757-Crash Theory:
Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics

It's interesting to see a prominent CT figure de-bunking a major pillar of the entire theory, but he needs to finish the job and take out the other two pillars: The bigoted notion that Arabs could never have pulled it off, and the idea that "controlled demolition" brought down the towers, in spite of the fact that the hundreds of powerful explosions required to do it simply never occurred.

 

[Dave A]

Well I cant expect everyone to be as bored as me and watch a 80 minute google vid about it, but in the video they said it was tested that at normal cruise height the chance that you can get connection is 0.006 and will still be low at lower altitude, cause I agree in the last phases of the flight, the planes were obviously in a decent.
But that still doesn't take away the 26 minute phone call that a stewardess had with American Airlines. It's a very solid conspiracy theory you know.



Well so far I've always seen a reason, and logic behind a terrorist attack. The sheer size of 9/11 alone caused alot of confusion, but now I start thinking about it again...

I work with phones, it is possible to have a good coversation on a plane if, for the duration of the call the plane is in a position where your phone can reach the antenna's (which is more often than publsihed to dicourage people from switching their mobiles on when onboard a plane), also I'd expect the planes to have been flying lower than normal anyway most of the time once the terrorists took over the plane.

 

[Kylehnat]

I'm incredibly tired of all of this bull****.

 

[Swift]

I'm incredibly tired of all of this bull****.

That makes two of us.

 

[Keef]

I think supporting conspiracy theories about 9/11 should be illegal and punishable. I can't believe how people can hate their government with such a passion and yet they wake up every morning in the same place, just to complain even more. Why don't they move out? Why don't they join their anti-American buddies from North Korea or Iran? Then they could actually be the ones engineering the plan instead of arguing over who else did it.

 

[Zardoz]

...Why don't they join their anti-American buddies from North Korea or Iran?...

Seems very weird for me to be defending the CT loonies, but it isn't about anti-Americanism, or even anti-government feelings, for that matter.

It's about Bush and his people, or "BushCo" as they've come to be known, and the group that inspires their insufferable arrogance, the bastion of "neoconservatism", the Project For The New American Century.

The PNAC manifesto:

"But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership."

They want "a defense budget" that can "advance American interests". These people want to control the world through military power. Don't kid yourself that they have any other goal or aim. They seek world dominance through brute military might. They're delusional, of course, but that's what makes them so dangerous.

The 9/11 conspiracy theorists are not anti-American. Their problem is strictly with this administration, and if you think the CT crowd is down on BushCo, wait a few decades and see what future historians have to say about this bunch.

 

[Danoff]

Conspiracy theorists have always been around and will always be. Some people have trouble grasping the fact that some things are coincidence, and many of them have trouble believing they aren't being lied to.

Human beings have trouble with coincidence. They're genetically engineered to look for cause and effect. For example, say you wear your favorite baseball cap to go watch your team play and they win. Ok, no big deal. But what if they win again and you wore your baseball cap again. Eventually people have trouble not seeing a cause and effect relationship between the cap wearing and the team winning or losing. Maybe it was coincidence, but after enough coincidences the human brain throws chance out the window and sticks with cause and effect. The funny part is that even down the line after the team has lost a bazillion times, the person will still refer to the hat as "lucky". Because the coincidence existed at one time and must have been caused by something.

The other part is pure simple paranoia. Especially from politicians, who people are used to hearing lies from "I did not have sex with that woman", "read my lips". Crooked politicans are all over the place, and people expect that from a position that offers someone power over others (even if it is short lived). Paranoia drives people to look for the worst in their leaders, and, coupled with a little coincidence, they can usually find something bad.

That's all it is. That's all the conspiracy theories are, personality flaws manifesting themselves in a lot of wasted time. But I, for one, am glad there are people out there trying to put together conspiracy theories. I'm a little paranoid myself, but not motivated enough to do anything about it. If people are out there looking for conspiracies, it helps me be assured that the information would come to light if something actually was happening.

 

[Canadian Speed]

/\/\/\ Though no one would believe it, even if it were true...

"Look your government is lieing to you"

"You idiot, it's a coincidence, go back to sleep. It was only a coincidence Monica had his giz on her blouse. It's only a coincidence that it's his best friend's son that orchestrated this whole thing. It's only a coincidence that the president had his and his fathers files officialy sealed... It's only a coincidence. Everything is fine... Go back to sleep little one."

 

[niky]

I work with phones, it is possible to have a good coversation on a plane if, for the duration of the call the plane is in a position where your phone can reach the antenna's (which is more often than publsihed to dicourage people from switching their mobiles on when onboard a plane), also I'd expect the planes to have been flying lower than normal anyway most of the time once the terrorists took over the plane.

Or you could just say: "Of course it's possible... they did in Die Hard 2, duh."

One question, though... about how high do you have to be flying for cellphones not to work? I won't turn mine on on the next flight... I promise...

 

[Dave A]

It depends, it's not height it'self that effects you using them, it's distance from the antenna's. Obviousely if you go higher, your moving away from the antenna's on the ground since they're on the ground, well some are at the top of tall buildings, some are in McDonalds M logo's, they're all over the place, but they arn't floating in the clouds. It all depends how powerful your phones antenna is and the antenna on the nearest transmitter's. I can tell you that the story's that phones play havok with planes instruments may be true with old planes despite never being proven, but it certainly won't with new ones, but it's still against the law to switch your phone on, when onboard a plane. Also of note, even when your not using the phone it's always sending out a signal.

 

[Speedy Samurai]

I think supporting conspiracy theories about 9/11 should be illegal and punishable.

You need a job in the current administration. They need people like you. Yes, lock up everyone who may have a dissenting opinion, whether there is evidence to support it or not. Try to get the constitution changed first so there's no 'free-speech' article, then you can arrest whoever you want.

 

[BMWteamPTG]

You need a job in the current administration. They need people like you. Yes, lock up everyone who may have a dissenting opinion, whether there is evidence to support it or not. Try to get the constitution changed first so there's no 'free-speech' article, then you can arrest whoever you want.

if there is no free-speech article, then why the hell have a constitution or bill of rights!?

the patriot act already takes away your right to privacy and unreasonable searches and seizures...why not take away our free speech too!?

 

[Zardoz]

...the patriot act already takes away your right to privacy and unreasonable searches and seizures...why not take away our free speech too!?

Bet the house that it's on their minds.

 

[Zardoz]

Fertile soil for conspiracy buffs to grow their theories in:

U.S. Building Massive Embassy in Baghdad

Score one for PNAC.

 

[FAOLIU05]

The Patriot Act is a securty measure to further ensure attacks like 9/11 never happen again. Because for you know, the guy next door has a improvised nuclear warhead in his basement with your neighborhood's name on it, courtesy of terrorism. For all you know, this Act could very well lead to it's capture and removal.

But it's not like the Government randomly abuses this power. I've yet heard of anyone subject to this Act.

-Off Subject-
I had to debate this subject. The words "THE PATRIOT ACT SAVED YOUR MOTHER FROM TERRIORST HIDING OUT NEXT DOOR PLANNING TO CUT HER HEAD OFF" won the argeument. lol.

 

[Keef]

I fully support the Patriot Act. I don't know anything about it and that's why I think it's a good idea. It hasn't effected my life in any way, to my knowledge, but I never do anything too awful illegal, anyway, besides running the proverbial red light every now and then.
"It don't profund me none, long as I get my rent payed on Friday." -Chef

 

[Speedy Samurai]

I cannot believe the last two posts. You know nothing of the patriot act, so you think it's good? Ignorance truly is bliss. Be careful what you say on internet forums, then. The FBI can come to your house, with a special search warrant and ransack it, as well as take you to a jail where you have no access to an attorney. They can keep you there for as long as they want, without even pressing any charges.

"But it's not like the Government randomly abuses this power. I've yet heard of anyone subject to this Act."

I am aghast at this statement. The reason you have not heard of anyone subject to this act is a)you don't know where to look b)you don't care enough to look c)the government effectively silences the person so that they have basically disappeared d)all of the above. Take a guess. Here is a hint, it's 'd'.

 

[Swift]

I just find it absolutely deplorable that people actually thing George W Bush is so evil he would actually kill 3000+ people just to level the twin towers.

Of course, if we did infact want to level the towers, there are much more effecient ways to do this. Especially from the aspect of cleaning up the rubble and debris.

I'd just LOVE to see one shred of evidence linking those planes or the hoax of the planes, to the current Bush administration.

Hey, I don't fully support everything the president does, but he simply isn't stupid or vile enough to murder 3000 of the citizens that elected him to office in his FIRST term.

 

[FoolKiller]

Hey, I don't fully support everything the president does, but he simply isn't stupid or vile enough to murder 3000 of the citizens that elected him to office in his FIRST term.

But conspiracy theorists think he is both.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Why are people so stubborn to believe things they don't want to believe?

 

[Swift]

Why are people so stubborn to believe things they don't want to believe?

Not to turn this into the evolution vs creation thread. But I don't believe in evolution(as the orgin of humans) for two main reasons. The Bible and science can't prove it to themselves. But at least I have a logical thought pattern to my reasons.

This conspiracy bit is so abstract that it goes past the people that say Adam and Eve had dinosaurs for pets.

But to answer your question, I think part of it is that when what you believe helps you to justify what you want to see happen(politcially, economically, etc) it's hard to believe anything else.

 

[Zardoz]

Can we please give the no-airliner-hit-the-Pentagon nonsense a proper burial and find a new hobby?

Every piece of the conspiracy theory can be dismantled like this.