Lotus 97T physics are terrible

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LVracerGT

LVracerGT

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LVracerGT
So I finally got around to updating GT6 to 1.08 today to check out the Senna cars and drive the Lotus 97T after watching the IndyCar races this weekend. I knew Senna's kart was going to drive like crap because the kart physics in GT are crap, I didn't spend much time in Senna's F3 car because it understeered terribly and had a lot of grip, but I was pleasantly surprised at how well it sounded even though it seems the sound was borrowed from the Red Bull Junior.

So enter the Lotus 97T, I clear the gold times and acquire the car relatively quick after figuring out the handling nuances in the Monza and Brands pole time challenges but I couldn't help but feel like the car was numb feeling, especially over the curbs getting almost no feedback through my G27 pounding the first two chicanes at Monza.

Fair enough, there may have been some hidden SRF on I wasn't aware of so I think what track could I really wring this things neck at and feel the car and how well PD did on the driving aspect, which is the most important part. So I take it to Laguna Seca, zero the camber and do a few minor suspension tweaks to try and get the car to turn a bit better. The first couple laps feel better than the pole challenges. Ok good start, but I still feel like the front end washes and getting on the power feels numb still. So some more minor suspension tweaks and a toe adjustment should bring it a bit more to where I want the car to be, and I add a little front downforce and take away some rear just to help a bit more in the sweepers.

I go back out, and the car is a complete pile. Everything is numb through the wheel, I can hardly feel the understeer and the rear feels like it's floating on top of ice, I slow down and try to do some throttle manipulation to get the car sliding back and forth and the whole car feels washy and numb. The Racing Hard tires might as well have been made from plastic.

I'm pretty disappointed with PD to say the least. One of the best things GT6 had going for it was the driving feel and physics, and this being a legendary car driven by one of the most legendary drivers who's ever lived I would think PD would have made it one of the best cars in the game. Instead it's a pig trying to stand up on a frozen lake.
 
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LVracerGT
So I finally got around to updating GT6 to 1.08 today to check out the Senna cars and drive the Lotus 97T after watching the IndyCar races this weekend. I knew Senna's kart was going to drive like crap because the kart physics in GT are crap, I didn't spend much time in Senna's F3 car because it understeered terribly and had a lot of grip, but I was pleasantly surprised at how well it sounded even though it seems the sound was borrowed from the Red Bull Junior.

So enter the Lotus 97T, I clear the gold times and acquire the car relatively quick after figuring out the handling nuances in the Monza and Brands pole time challenges but I couldn't help but feel like the car was numb feeling, especially over the curbs getting almost no feedback in the wheel pounding the first two chicanes at Monza.

Fair enough, there may have been some hidden SRF on I wasn't aware of so I think what track could I really wring this things neck at and feel the car and how well PD did on the driving aspect, which is the most important part. So I take it to Laguna Seca, zero the camber and do a few minor suspension tweaks to try and get the car to turn a bit better. The first couple laps feel better than the pole challenges. Ok good start, but I still feel like the front end washes and getting on the power feels numb still. So some more minor suspension tweaks and a toe adjustment should bring it a bit more to where I want the car to be, and I add a little front downforce and take away some rear just to help a bit more in the sweepers.

I go back out, and the car is a complete pile. Everything is numb through the wheel, I can hardly feel the understeer and the rear feels like it's floating on top of ice, I slow down and try to do some throttle manipulation to get the car sliding back and forth and the whole car feels washy and numb. The Racing Hard tires might as well have been made from plastic.

I'm pretty disappointed with PD to say the least. One of the best things GT6 had going for it was the driving feel and physics, and this being a legendary car driven by one of the most legendary drivers who's ever lived I would think PD would have made it one of the best cars in the game. Instead it's a pig trying to stand up on a frozen lake.
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MOTORTRENDmitch
In before: "PD gives us things and all you can do is complain?!"
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In before every complaining thread under the sun.

I don't see the issue. The car is squirmy under throttle, plenty of turbo lag. Note the cars aero config in settings. Note how it's on RS tyres which snap easier for the TT's. Note how PD has never got open wheelers 100% right.

For Gran Turismo, it is almost perfect. LV, sure you really are playing the right game?
 
Furinkazen
In before every complaining thread under the sun.

I don't see the issue. The car is squirmy under throttle, plenty of turbo lag. Note the cars aero config in settings. Note how it's on RS tyres which snap easier for the TT's. Note how PD has never got open wheelers 100% right.

For Gran Turismo, it is almost perfect. LV, sure you really are playing the right game?
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It was on RS for the pole challenges, but when i acquired the car it was on RH tires, which I prefer anyway. I've never liked the RS since GT5. Under power it doesn't feel squirmy IMO, it feels numb and unpredictable as to when the rear will let go, and when it does there's no feel through the wheel that it's done so making it very hard to catch. I also changed the aero settings, which I described in my OP.

I know open wheel physics in GT haven't been good recently, but with the new "advanced aero model" and new suspension and tire models PD hails as selling points, I would expect this car to have quite a bit of feel to it, not some numb floaty thing.
 
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LVracerGT
It was on RS for the pole challenges, but when i acquired the car it was on RH tires, which I prefer anyway. I've never liked the RS since GT5.
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Try the Lotus on SS or SH tyres, for anything like an old school race car they suit it much more.
 
I love this car, it's so dangerous and terrifying it's fun. Has a lot of character.

I don't really know how the notoriously awkward to drive 80's Turbo F1 cars handle, but it seems right.
 
ildd
It was meant to be a qualifying lap (right?) so RS would have been more suitable.
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Guys, please read my OP carefully. I was on RS for the pole challenge (pretty sure you can't change the tires for that anyway). It was after I won the car and took it to Laguna Seca on my own that it was on RH tires.
 
LVracerGT
Guys, please read my OP carefully. I was on RS for the pole challenge (pretty sure you can't change the tires for that anyway). It was after I won the car and took it to Laguna Seca on my own that it was on RH tires.
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I was referring to your second post. The way you worded it felt like you didn't want to use RS tires.
 
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doing 360km/h on that corner i would like see what gonna happen to your neck on real life.. in my opinion is unrealistic the cornering speed
 
RS is unrealistic in anyway. SS or RH that Lotus around the Nurb. Then you'll have a smile on your face, if your TV isn't on fire from the sparks kicked uphill after Aremberg.
 
Before PD finally got around to getting this DLC 'out', I was playing F1 2013 and enjoying the vintage F1 cars in that game, namely the Ferrari F1 87/88c.

I get that F1 2013 is more sim-cade than simulator, but man did that deliver a better experience than this GT6 DLC, especially in regards to F1's Turbo heyday. I too was disappointed in how 'numb' the 97T felt, and also its sound.

We know PD isn't known for sounds, but F1 2013 simply puts GT to shame in that aspect too, where is the reverb ?, where are the echos?, where is that 'holy:censored:thisthingwillkillme' feeling ?. Lost in Kazunorialand most likely. :indiff:
 
I wouldn't say it was terrible, sure you had to manhandle the thing to keep it pointing straight but, they do reward the ones who do with the best smiles per minute and the quickest lap times. ;)
 
Kurei
Before PD finally got around to getting this DLC 'out', I was playing F1 2013 and enjoying the vintage F1 cars in that game, namely the Ferrari F1 87/88c.

I get that F1 2013 is more sim-cade than simulator, but man did that deliver a better experience than this GT6 DLC, especially in regards to F1's Turbo heyday. I too was disappointed in how 'numb' the 97T felt, and also its sound.

We know PD isn't known for sounds, but F1 2013 simply puts GT to shame in that aspect too, where is the reverb ?, where are the echos?, where is that 'holy:censored:thisthingwillkillme' feeling ?. Lost in Kazunorialand most likely. :indiff:
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I too have played F1 2013 and drove the vintage F1 cars and agree entirely with you. That game isn't even meant to be sim, and those cars have more feel and you can drive them much more aggressively.
 
Kurei
Before PD finally got around to getting this DLC 'out', I was playing F1 2013 and enjoying the vintage F1 cars in that game, namely the Ferrari F1 87/88c.

I get that F1 2013 is more sim-cade than simulator, but man did that deliver a better experience than this GT6 DLC, especially in regards to F1's Turbo heyday. I too was disappointed in how 'numb' the 97T felt, and also its sound.

We know PD isn't known for sounds, but F1 2013 simply puts GT to shame in that aspect too, where is the reverb ?, where are the echos?, where is that 'holy:censored:thisthingwillkillme' feeling ?. Lost in Kazunorialand most likely. :indiff:
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Ye I agree, I was going to mention that. Ironically Senna's 98T and the F92A are two cars that stick out in my mind for F1 2013. Playing with those cars with a wheel really makes you get a feel for cars of that era, even though it is more of an arcade game, it does put GT6 to shame in how it feels and how it sounds. I hope PD really step up and improve on these things for GT7 as the last two entries to the series really are pretty underwhelming.
 
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I think the car is rubbish in terms of physics, but then I think all of the racing cars are like that. Complete lack of feeling, feedback, detail... Just feels a bit floaty to me, I think it sounds good at least.
 
Kurei
Before PD finally got around to getting this DLC 'out', I was playing F1 2013 and enjoying the vintage F1 cars in that game, namely the Ferrari F1 87/88c.

I get that F1 2013 is more sim-cade than simulator, but man did that deliver a better experience than this GT6 DLC, especially in regards to F1's Turbo heyday. I too was disappointed in how 'numb' the 97T felt, and also its sound.

We know PD isn't known for sounds, but F1 2013 simply puts GT to shame in that aspect too, where is the reverb ?, where are the echos?, where is that 'holy:censored:thisthingwillkillme' feeling ?. Lost in Kazunorialand most likely. :indiff:
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Really? IMO, the gt6 version kicks the code masters one to bits. Sound, handling, wildness.....
 
MOTORTRENDmitch
Do you think tires had that level of grip in the 80s?
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I don't think people understand how far tires have come along. The Daytona Prototypes of today are just a couple seconds faster than say... the 1989 Jaguar XJR9/Porsche 962 during the 24 hour race at Daytona.

IMO, the Lotus with downforce set to minimal and tires of somewhere of comfort softs to sports hard in GT6 is probably equal to the grip levels of 1985.

Furinkazen
Worth noting the Lotus was supposed to have 200hp more than GT6 one in Q form.
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So it has 150 more said-ponies than it did in race form. In the end, it's alright. No one knew the exact power they made anyway. It was always "somewhere between X and X."
 
montez34
F1 cars aren't supposed to be easy to drive, the average person would probably kill themselves in real life if put in an F1 car. Watch Richard Hammond struggle to drive one in this video.

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You think want it to be easy? No where have I said that. In fact I'm saying it is too easy, and it's too numb.
 
alexnipi
doing 360km/h on that corner i would like see what gonna happen to your neck on real life
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Dunno, ask a fighter jet pilot... Or any F1 driver who raced at Montmelo for that matter. The 97T will reach a top speed of 350 kph, usually in that section you will be hitting the rev limiter and will have an entry speed of about 345/340 kph. If my quick-calc skills serve correctly (I'm sure they won't as I am rusty as a nail) we should be having a peak 4.5 g lateral acceleration at the Schwedenkreuz, which is not enough to send you g-LOCing, or even cause Kalniek, leave alone decapitating you or causing your neck to snap. It is an acceleration that is perfectly sustainable for short amounts of time with no g-suit and neck bracing, which, keep in mind, is also provided on most GT6 helmets in the form of a nice officially licensed HANS device. Of course my calculations could be wrong and the lateral acceleration could be higher, but then again, it's not a prolonged acceleration, not really.

Back on track: op, my experiences in driving turbocharged sportscars on a track are quite limited (read: nonexistent), so I'll have to trust you on that one. And I could tell you that Gran Turismo is not a simulator and that if they simulated the car correctly, it would end up in a lot of people being forced to either turn their assists on and being hurt in their pride, or throwing their controllers to the screen in frustration. Then again, I am mostly a photographer of make pretend cars, I can't really talk about how things are and should be as far as physics go. But the handling felt quite satisfying to me. Not quite there yet, but good enough for now. Maybe the car doesn't give a good feedback to the wheel, resulting in a numbed feeling. That could be the case, as PD's ought to fail to quality check something and the car looks and sounds too good to be true.

As for the tires not having that level of grip in the 80s that someone mentioned: I remember having a discussion a while back on the fm.net forums about this exact same thing: of course tires weren't that sticky in the 80s (even tho they were closer than you may think), but a game like Forza or Gran Turismo can't really have different grip models for every single car's tires (think development times stretching into infinity if they decided to do something like that, and let's not even touch the pile of manure that is licensing). Therefore, all racing hard tyres will give the same amount of grip, heat up in the same way, etc. It is a sub-optimal solution but, because of the aforementioned problems, it will have to do.
 
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I have not too many laps but it is handful to drive fast with a controller. Lots of fun for me. I also have F1 2013 not tried vintage cars yet but its gameplay and feel of the cars is not good compared to GT6.
 
It's utterly fantastic. The heavy steering and flat inputs are really well modeled.
 
hsv
It's utterly fantastic. The heavy steering and flat inputs are really well modeled.
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Almost any car on RS tires has heavy steering and flat inputs. I haven't tried the car on RH or SS tires yet, which I think would be more realistic grip for this car, but I'm hoping it's a little more lively with the tire change.
 
On RH, it's prone to snapping round and sliding when you put the power down. The front end still feels very heavy and solid, which is nice.
 

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