Lowered Suspension Question

[A7X]

First of all i'm not sure this is in the right place - so mods feel free to move it.

Basically i own a Renault Clio Mk1 and have had it lowered on lowering springs for about a year and a half. The front suspension is a McPhearson strut setup and i have lowered it by 55mm using Spax springs. The rear is a torsion bar setup and has been lowered again by 55mm (although torsion bars are easily adjusted) and the standard dampers replaced with fully adjustable spax ones. The car also has 15" alloys on it.

I'm having to start using the car more and more now and the stiff front springs are really starting to aggravate me - harsh ride (especially when carrying a passenger/s) or travelling slowly, and the fact that going over speed bumps is a nightmare! (have to travel relatively slow to stop the exhaust from scraping on the ridge of the bump!). BUT the handling on smooth roads and when travelling faster is far superior to the old set-up; it doesnt look like a roller skate! and the way it is no longer blown around on the motorway.

I've been thinking and (this was the main reason the post was started) would proper adjustable dampers (matched to the springs) make much difference to the harshness at lower speeds? or would it be better to replace it with a 35mm front lowering kit or springs. The rear doesnt matter as the dampers are designed to be used with either 35 or 55mm lowering so they will not need to be replaced.

Considering a relatively tight budget obviously the cheaper the better! (I know - you get what you pay for) what would be my best option, and would the front adjustable damper make much difference?

Pic of the car before lowering (sorry about cameraphone job, although it's clearer than the thumbnail suggests):



Pic after being lowered (slightly better due to newer phone being used)



Cheers!

A7X

 

[Perfect Balance]

A suspension is only "harsh" when then dampers don't match the rates. Otherwise it's just "stiff."

Matched dampers will probably make the ride even stiffer, but I don't see why getting over speed bumps is a problem. The bumper doesn't stick out far past the wheels, you shouldn't have to go diagonally over bumps.

I'm not sure what kind of answer you are looking for.

 

[Famine]

Why?


I know that this isn't exactly the answer you're after, but why are you mucking around with the suspension of a 1,171cc Clio? If it was a Williams or an RSi you could make a reasonable case for performance-oriented tweaks. But it's a 1.2 RL Versailles. Even if it was worth the time and money, the effort vs. reward graph is strongly tilted against it.

Save your money. Put it towards the next-car-fund.

 

[YSSMAN]

Doesn't Tien make a set of (electronic) adjustable dampers? I don't know how "cheap" they are, but certainly they much cost nearly as much as an MKI Clio?

Do the cheap stuff first. Drive more slowly, check the tires and such. Maybe get better tires?

BTW: The car looks like its a lot of fun to drive in the first place! Okay, maybe not. I don't know... I certainly can enjoy a "tight" suspension without much power...

 

[Perfect Balance]

Doesn't Tien make a set of (electronic) adjustable dampers? I don't know how "cheap" they are, but certainly they much cost nearly as much as an MKI Clio?

The Tein "electronically adjustable dampers" are just regular Tein dampers with little motors that you place on the top to spin the adjusters when you press buttons from inside the car.

It's not really something that special. You can pop your hood and do it in 30 second anyway.

But really, that car does look like a fun car to drive. The engine isn't great, but still.

 

[niky]

The answer to Famine's "why" is temporary insanity. It's a common affliction, I should know, my temporary insanity has lasted nearly eight years already.

The answer to your question, ATX, is in Perfect Balance's post... if it's too jittery, your dampers aren't properly matched to your spring rates. You already know what you've got to do... go out and buy better dampers... adjustables, preferably... and get them dialed in right.

 

[A7X]

To answer famine's question, it's because of insurance - sure i'd like a valver or williams or another car with a larger engine, but i simply can't afford to insure it. I have money saved up waiting for a newer car - but when i do spend it i want something that i really want and not to settle for a second best so to speak, and as such i dont mind waiting an extra year to earn some more no claims bonus and get a much nicer car that i can actually insure and would really appreciate.
In the mean time i'm not fussed about spending some money to try to make this car a bit more enjoyable. I know it's not at all powerful but it is a light car - as it has nothing in it, and is fun to drive around country roads etc and on a relatively smooth road is brilliant fun.

Getting over speed bumps is not a problem - as in the car will go over them, BUT the mid section of the exhaust scrapes on the bump - therefore it is damaging my exhuast (and no its not a stupid big one!, it's standard). I don't know if this has made it any clearer? sorry it's hard to describe.

The main question i was asking was if the adjustable dampers would improve the low speed comfort or ride over bumps (roads in reading arn't that good).

Thanks for the answers everyone, i'm now seriously considering getting some adjustable dampers for the front. As far as coilovers go i think il end up paying more for them than i did for the car! The only other thing i'm considering is raising the car to a 35mm drop (if this makes sense) or atleast raising the back slightly (10-15mm).

Too many choices!

Cheers
A7X

 

[Famine]

To answer famine's question, it's because of insurance

I hope you realise that you must declare your modified suspension to your insurance company...


Seriously though, spending more than a car is worth on "sporty" suspension for it, especially when it's designed with the sole remit of being easy to get into supermarket car parking spaces and have a boot for putting carrier bags in, is an exercise in futility. I realise that it may be what you want to do now, but in 10 years you'll look back and wonder what possessed you.

Maybe not the advice you were looking for

 

[Keef]

Hey now, what's wrong with taking an econo box and turning it into something that'll put your Miata to shame?

 

[A7X]

Fortunately i have spent a lot less on these "modifications" than the car is worth, the wheels albeit without tyres cost me £50 for the set of four (a friend brought new wheels), and suspension again cost me £50 as another friend decided to sell his clio so i swapped my standard parts for these plus £50 his way. Therefore i feel that £100 plus £50-100 for the new shocks (i will need to replace the old ones soon anyway so may as well replace with new spax ones) is justifiable as the car is now a whole lot more fun to drive even if there are some annoying "side-effects". Even so i imagine i may look back in ten years and wonder what i did, but i'm willing to see if i will look back and think i did the right thing for an extra £50-100, which thinking about it is a pretty insignificant amount of money to be worrying about in 10 years time, as no doubt it would have been spent on something else pointless (drink anyone?).

Am i right in thinking that with shorter springs the original dampers will be compressed when resting normally, and as such the travel before they hit their stops has been reduced by 55mm and therefore replacing with shortened shocks designed to work with the springs that travel may even be increased?

As far as tyres go i don't like to by cheapo ones as they are the only thing in contact with the road (hopefully), so i have a reasonable set of yokohoma parada A539 which i've found to be brilliant in the dry and above average in the wet, but they wear relatively quickly as they are quite a soft tyre.If anyones thinking of trying them i would definately recommend them as they were far better than the pirellies(sp?) i had before.

The car has no other modifications (and i don't intend on doing any!(can't stand bodykits and massive exhausts etc) - apart from the shocks) except for a stereo and speakers as the old stereo sounded awful.

Cheers

A7X

 

[Famine]

Hey now, what's wrong with taking an econo box and turning it into something that'll put your Miata to shame?

I don't own a Miata and, even if I did, it'd be lighter, 80hp better off, lower, shorter, wider and correct-wheel-drive.

It'd take more than 15" alloys and a 55mm drop.

Fortunately i have spent a lot less on these "modifications" than the car is worth, the wheels albeit without tyres cost me £50 for the set of four (a friend brought new wheels), and suspension again cost me £50 as another friend decided to sell his clio so i swapped my standard parts for these plus £50 his way. Therefore i feel that £100 plus £50-100 for the new shocks (i will need to replace the old ones soon anyway so may as well replace with new spax ones) is justifiable as the car is now a whole lot more fun to drive even if there are some annoying "side-effects".

A 1996 Clio 1.2 in reasonable condition is worth every penny of £250.

I recently purchased a full set of springs and shocks for a slightly-less-practical car for £268. Good suspension >>> cheap, low suspension.

Am i right in thinking that with shorter springs the original dampers will be compressed when resting normally, and as such the travel before they hit their stops has been reduced by 55mm and therefore replacing with shortened shocks designed to work with the springs that travel may even be increased?

Travel won't be increased, no. But matched shocks (an absolute MUST) will resist the travel better. That's why they're also called "dampers". Dampers ameliorate force so that, instead of your suspension compressing the depth of any given bump instantly (bound), the load is spread over a short period of time making for a smoother ride. They also resist the return to rest phase (rebound), so you aren't bouncing down the road.

As far as tyres go i don't like to by cheapo ones as they are the only thing in contact with the road (hopefully), so i have a reasonable set of yokohoma parada A539 which i've found to be brilliant in the dry and above average in the wet, but they wear relatively quickly as they are quite a soft tyre.If anyones thinking of trying them i would definately recommend them as they were far better than the pirellies(sp?) i had before.

Tyres are the #1 physical modification to any car. And Pirelli P6000s + light cars = hell.

Try a set of Toyo Proxes or Eagle F1 GSD3s next time you change.

The car has no other modifications (and i don't intend on doing any!(can't stand bodykits and massive exhausts etc) - apart from the shocks) except for a stereo and speakers as the old stereo sounded awful.

Remember that all modifications to a car must be declared to your insurance company.

 

[forza2.0]

Get some 2nd hand coilovers.

 

[Jim Prower]

Get some 2nd hand coilovers.

So long as you ABSOLUTELY KNOW that the shocks are in PERFECT condition. You don't want to get worn-out shocks.

I'm also not sure about the stiffness of those coilover springs. They might be stiffer.

I'd say put some stock-height springs under it, and put some anti-roll bars under it, a good set of shocks, too. You might go a little stiffer front and rear, not as stiff as your modified front, though.

 

[Keef]

I learned a lesson with the Sol, and that is to not get cheap parts from cheap companies. I don't know about your Clio, but Honda's suspension design performs best on my car with a 1.5-2 inch lowering. By leaving the rear a little higher than the front you can compensate for the wussy rear antiroll bar to get some extra lift-throttle oversteer, but that method is usually left for people who want to forgo large antiroll bars and stick with high-rate springs and shocks, like what you get with most high end coilover kits. The suspension also responds well to simply replacing the stock ARBs with large units, a few underbody braces here and there to protect the weak spots, and a set of really goobery tires.

But like I said, I have no idea how to tune a Clio. All I know is that you have minimal camber gain when lowering or compressing your McPherson struts, none with the torsion beam, and also no alignment adjustment at all at the rear. Hopefully Renault is as good at making a torsion beam as GM (haha) because they've gotten the design to work pretty well on the Cobalt.

But overall I'd probably say your best bet to tuning your suspension would be to get antiroll bars (or bigger ones if they're standard equipment), sticky tires and smaller, lighter wheels (think 14 inchers) and fresh, standard shocks and springs.

 

[niky]

Secondhand dampers, as long as they're a good brand, should live another two or more years... just make sure they weren't used to jump the car...

Coil-overs... if you ain't tracking the thing, forget it... too much money for a road car.

 

[A7X]

I don't own a Miata and, even if I did, it'd be lighter, 80hp better off, lower, shorter, wider and correct-wheel-drive.

It'd take more than 15" alloys and a 55mm drop.

Absolutely correct. But that's not the point of this thread, i'm simply trying to make the car a little more enjoyable!

A 1996 Clio 1.2 in reasonable condition is worth every penny of £250.

I recently purchased a full set of springs and shocks for a slightly-less-practical car for £268. Good suspension >>> cheap, low suspension.

Lets be fair, a quick check on autotrader suggests an average price of £500-600 for a 1.2 clio.

Obviously the more you spend the better the quality (or so it should be), but bearing in mind a set of standard front shocks is only £30 and spax from what i've heard are a reasonable make i don't think they can be that bad. The reason i changed the standard suspension was (yes i know i was offered it cheap - which may have influenced me a bit!) that it would just roll round corners and float about. By lowering it, it has made the car alot more fun and also helps stop the inside rear lifting off of the ground when cornering harder.

Travel won't be increased, no. But matched shocks (an absolute MUST) will resist the travel better. That's why they're also called "dampers". Dampers ameliorate force so that, instead of your suspension compressing the depth of any given bump instantly (bound), the load is spread over a short period of time making for a smoother ride. They also resist the return to rest phase (rebound), so you aren't bouncing down the road.

I'm wasn't to sure exactly how dampers work except that they stop the car from just bouncing - like it would if it were on just springs, so that was extremely helpful. So from the sounds of it matching dampers would improve the ride a bit? Cheers - sorry if that sounds sarcastic, it's not supposed to.

Tyres are the #1 physical modification to any car. And Pirelli P6000s + light cars = hell.

Try a set of Toyo Proxes or Eagle F1 GSD3s next time you change.



Remember that all modifications to a car must be declared to your insurance company.

I was thinking of trying the toyo's but opted for the yokohama's instead. I'l try the toyo's next time though, as although the yoko's are excellent in the dry, they leave a little to be desired in the wet.

As far as the insurance goes will i need to tell them if i change the front shocks as i've just told them it was lowered - they didn't ask how. Suppose it's better to be safe than sorry.

As far as anti-roll bars, i'm assuming you mean a strut brace? they cost a fair amount of money and im not sure if it would be worth it, but no they are not standard fitment. As far as going back to standard - i wouldn't as explained above, but i would consider raising it by 15-20mm. The other thing about the standard suspenson was that it was so high it was awful on motorways - just being blown all over the place.

Thanks for all the help, you've all been very helpful.
I think i'm going to try buying some shocks and see if they make much difference, If not i'l put them on ebay so i won't have lost too much money if it doesn't make any difference. I then may try raising the front a bit (i'm raising the back a little anyway).

Finally anyone got any opinions on spax? I've heard there reasonable, but i'm willing to hear other opinions.

Cheers

A7X

 

[Scaff]

As far as anti-roll bars, i'm assuming you mean a strut brace? they cost a fair amount of money and im not sure if it would be worth it, but no they are not standard fitment. As far as going back to standard - i wouldn't as explained above, but i would consider raising it by 15-20mm. The other thing about the standard suspenson was that it was so high it was awful on motorways - just being blown all over the place.

Your Clio already has a front anti-roll bar (they all do), and it is a slightly different thing to a strut bar.

Strut bars are top mounted and generally a lot stiffer than anti-roll bars (which are normally mounted under the car and link the suspension together). You may find this page very, very helpful in understanding the various parts and working of suspension systems.

http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible.html


Anti-roll bar

Strut brace

Being honest as you have already lowered and stiffened your front suspension, the last thing you would want is a strut brace; unless you like a lot of understeer.

On the question of declaring stuff to your insurance company, yes you must declare every single modification. Fail to do so and you invalidate your insurance.


Regards

Scaff

 

[forza2.0]

Famine i right the best mod you can do to your car is to get some decent tyres. Toyo Proxes T1r's are only £65 per tire. They will put your yoko's to shame and your corner speed will increase by quite a margin. Oh and your car will stop more quickly.

 

[niky]

Neeee-ooooovaaaas...

Just kidding... you might want to look up a set of Goodyear GSD3s or the new Asymmetricos... from all accounts, they're very good mixed-weather sports tires.

Me, I'm kind of a throwback... I prefer a perfectly tuned car with just enough grip... sometimes having too much grip exposes flaws in your suspension set-up that you'll feel inclined to address... leading you to spend more money on the damn thing...

 

[A7X]

Thanks for all the help guys, and i'l let you know how i get on!
Makes interesting reading that suspension bible - cheers

A7X

 

[Race Idiot]

Famine i right the best mod you can do to your car is to get some decent tyres. Toyo Proxes T1r's are only £65 per tire. They will put your yoko's to shame and your corner speed will increase by quite a margin. Oh and your car will stop more quickly.

Just dont get them in 195/55/15 or 225/50/15 as god they sucked in that size. Seriously I got so much sidewall flex out of them under hard cornering I thought they were made out of jello. Although people who have gotten them in different sizes seem to have nothing but good to say about them.

But you know they do make the awesomely good Toyo R888 in those sizes as well i'm pretty sure.

 

[niky]

That's easy to fix... just pump them up to about 36 to 40 psi.

 

[Famine]

Just dont get them in 195/55/15 or 225/50/15 as god they sucked in that size. Seriously I got so much sidewall flex out of them under hard cornering I thought they were made out of jello. Although people who have gotten them in different sizes seem to have nothing but good to say about them.

But you know they do make the awesomely good Toyo R888 in those sizes as well i'm pretty sure.

Oddly, I have 225/50R15 T1-Rs on my car. They do the opposite of sucking.

I was considering getting some 888s for her next trackday but:

• They're twice the price each.
• One track day would destroy them
• It's not like I can break traction on track on the T1-Rs anyway.

 

[Gashlycrumb]

I can also recommend the Toyo Proxys. I swapped them for the Pirellis that came standard on my SRI and it was much improved. Can you get Nankangs in the UK? they are also worth trying.

 

[Famine]

I can also recommend the Toyo Proxys. I swapped them for the Pirellis that came standard on my SRI and it was much improved. Can you get Nankangs in the UK? they are also worth trying.

You can, but they're somewhat of a budget tyre - along with a whole host of similarly-named tyres, they're commonly referred to as Diyung Skidmasters.

Pirellis are good tyres in the right application. And that application is heavy stuff. My dad's S-Type R they were excellent on, but that weighs 4.7 Lincoln Cathedrals. On the MX-3 (2,400lb) and MX-5 (2,200lb), they were appalling - tramlining, white-line allergy, dreadful wet performance. I swapped them for Toyo Proxes T1-Rs on both cars - and the Mk1 MX-5 we run has Goodyear Eagle GSD3s and Avon ZV3s - and the transformation was utterly astounding.


The problem now is that as grip increases, you want more power to break it. And then you want more grip to reign the power in. It's a vicious and expensive circle

 

[eiriksmil]

I don't really know what to say, every thread here always contain lots of writing and argumentation. Yes, it's nice to have a serious discussion once in a while, but giving people a hard time because they have lowered their Clios, and "oh dear, it's not even a Williams". You don't need to spend a lot on your daily but you don't need to roll at stock ride height either. If you invest in some proper coilovers, you can sell them on. We aren't talking of a that big loss here. And not everyone like the thought of driving awful cars until you finally can afford a brand new Lotus Exige or something else on a wallpaper.

 

[forza2.0]

You can, but they're somewhat of a budget tyre - along with a whole host of similarly-named tyres, they're commonly referred to as Diyung Skidmasters.

Pirellis are good tyres in the right application. And that application is heavy stuff. My dad's S-Type R they were excellent on, but that weighs 4.7 Lincoln Cathedrals. On the MX-3 (2,400lb) and MX-5 (2,200lb), they were appalling - tramlining, white-line allergy, dreadful wet performance. I swapped them for Toyo Proxes T1-Rs on both cars - and the Mk1 MX-5 we run has Goodyear Eagle GSD3s and Avon ZV3s - and the transformation was utterly astounding.


The problem now is that as grip increases, you want more power to break it. And then you want more grip to reign the power in. It's a vicious and expensive circle

Would you be able to say whether the GSD3's or Toyo Proxes T1-R's are better?

 

[A7X]

i think i'l try the toyo's next change. I've got 195/45/15 so hopefully the sidewall flex will be reduced. Only problem is that the tyre size isn't usually stocked so they have to be ordered, which can mean a bit of a wait. I've found the yokohama's tramline a fair amount so i'l see how much difference toyo's make.

 

[Famine]

I don't really know what to say, every thread here always contain lots of writing and argumentation. Yes, it's nice to have a serious discussion once in a while, but giving people a hard time because they have lowered their Clios, and "oh dear, it's not even a Williams". You don't need to spend a lot on your daily but you don't need to roll at stock ride height either. If you invest in some proper coilovers, you can sell them on. We aren't talking of a that big loss here. And not everyone like the thought of driving awful cars until you finally can afford a brand new Lotus Exige or something else on a wallpaper.

Apparently asking salient questions is "giving people a hard time". Fortunately A7X took it as intended, even if you didn't.

Would you be able to say whether the GSD3's or Toyo Proxes T1-R's are better?

No.

The T1-Rs on the Mk2 MX-5 stick better than the GSD3s on the Mk1 MX-5, but the Mk1 is 200lb lighter and is quite a different car.

They're pretty much of a muchness. Get whichever is cheaper

 

[eiriksmil]

Apparently asking salient questions is "giving people a hard time". Fortunately A7X took it as intended, even if you didn't.

Okay, so I used the wrong words. Fair point, mate. All I'm saying is there are wonders of going stupidly low and having a nice stance. Talking directly to you, there are times when I would take cheap and low suspension over good (and often pricey) suspension.
Plus it sort of annoys me when I see all these supercars and "what would you most rather own?"-threads. Although it was you asking those questions, my first post wasn't directly guided towards you. I just get a feeling that people around here don't understand why you should modify a car that's out of the norm. I don't have money for "truly nice car" and dislike stock cars. Fair enough, or?