LSD problems, and LSD "Lockup" in AWD cars

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Im a fairly experienced tuner, but i've got a small problem. Im trying to break the 7.1xx record on the 1/4 mile with the WRX Spec-C. I've got it down to about 7.8xx seconds, but its still a far cry from the current record. Besides tranny work, i think that what the car is lacking in is the transfer of power to the road. The tires don't slip, but i have found an inconsistency with this whole process in GT4. I own all the other gran turismo games, and tuned cars in all of them, but what is different with GT4 is that there is the Oversteer, Understeer, and TCS adjustments. TCS was in GT2, and possibly GT3, but this setting still confuses me. When this setting is lower, as i understand it, the tires spin. When higher, the tires seem to lock up as if a strong LSD is in use (which i have equipped the car with). But when this setting is on max it actually increased my time. My question is: Have i locked up the differentials to the point where it makes it harder for the tires to turn, or is there just too much friction being applied to the wheels.

This setting, I have found works best at where it is most of the time: 7. Ive also got the acceleration jacked up on the LSD (its the LSD that you get to tune everything, dont know what it is called, after the 2 way). Also, should I just switch to a one way LSD so that i dont have to worry about this issue.
 
Your TCS is the traction control system. When you have it at 0, there is nothing keeping the wheels from spinning. When you start moving the slider up, increasing the setting, you're activating the TCS, and it's lowering the amount of wheelspin. The TCS is detecting the wheelspin, and when it detects this, it lifts off on the throttle for you, even if you have the pedal to the floor. It will keep working and lifting off the throttle (you can see the blue triangle or whatever flash in your HUD) until the wheelspin stops.

ETA : I really don't think this will effect your LSD though. Traction control CAN limit your acceleration times, because the fact it's pulling back on the throttle for you. I can pull better lap times with the system turned off. I can get all the power to the road that way. Plus, you get even better at throttle control, in my opinion. I've done comparison laps, where I run one lap with TCS, so it creates a ghost for me, then run again, with the system turned off, and I manage to pull harder and faster out of the corners. Just my two cents.
 
So, I should turn off TCS? As in set it to zero?? This sounds like a sure fire way to burn off my tires at takeoff. You realize, this is not for doing lap times with, but strictly for the quarter mile. I haven't done this yet but my guess would be when you drop it into gear, the tires would smoke like crazy. I did what you said to do for this game in my GT3 save. I used a supra RZ w/ over 1000 horsepower and set the TCS to zero. The rear wheels immeatiately smoked. I realize that this is a AWD car, but still it has over 500 horsepower, so wouldn't it do the same thing? Well anyway, worth a try. Thanks.
 
By the way, Ive tried tuning the LSD's settings so that there is minimum acceleration and intial torque. It didnt seem to help out my best time, so i gave up on the idea. Does anyone think lowering both the settings on the LSD and TCS will help. Also, if anyone has real life experience with this problem I would appreciate their feedback.
 
Yeah, it will blaze your tires, but that's where you learn throttle control even more so if you had TCS on all the time (not saying you don't know throttle control, but you can always improve, I did so by turning it off). If all you're doing is quarter mile times, then go ahead and set some TCS. I, personally would set the TCS between 3-5 for that. Do you use the buttons ( X and O ) for acceleration and braking? Or do you use the sticks?
 
I use the X button for acceleration. What does that have to do with it though? Setting the TCS too low would cause wheelspin right? If I set it any lower than 4 I think it would slip. Any higher than 7 will cause the problem. So, should I keep it as low as possible without slipping the wheels? Seems risky...
 
I asked about the X button and sticks because for me, using the stick is way better for controlling throttle. It's more precise. With the X button, it seems you only have a very very limited range of movement before the button is depressed all the way, causing full throttle. Yes, setting the TCS to 0 will cause wheel spin regardless, but by using the stick, you can slowly push the stick forward, controlling the wheel spin easier. Give it a try if you haven't. You probably won't go back to X, I didn't.
 
Thanks, I will. Do you think the initial torque or acceleration should be adjusted also? I think, if both the TCS and the initial and accel. are jacked up, maybe thats the problem. But I will use your advice.
 
In truth, using the button is giving you only full throttle and full brake. There is no analog action taking place. The stick is the analog device, but I can't get the hang of steering left/right and accelerating up/down at the same time (must be a spaz :crazy: ) so I use the buttons.
If you want to avoid wheel spin, you need to find the "hook-up" rev of your vehicle. Most people sit at the start line at full rev until the green light. DUMB, DUMB, DUMB!!! Think about what would happen if you did this in a real car. Your engine would explode before you saw the green. You need to float the revs near somewhere near mid throttle (depends on the car) and time it such that at the GO mark you punch the gas at precisely the right rev. Too high and your tires will spin, too low and you will bog and lose time. Get it just right and your tires will "hook up" to the road and all your horsepower will be transferred into forward momentum. You will fire off the line like you came out of a cannon. The skill of getting the car to hook up is the single, biggest factor in winning drag races. Ever seen a race where both cars seem to get a good start but one just rockets out to the lead and makes the other guy look like he's going to the mall? That's "hookin' it up."
 
DarkKni9hT
In truth, using the button is giving you only full throttle and full brake. There is no analog action taking place.

I mean no offense, but you may have a problem with your controller, then. You can indeed vary the amount of throttle and brake you apply by varying how hard you hold the buttons. I will admit that it doesn't take very much pressure for full throttle or brake, though (I've had to teach myself not to put a ton of pressure on them all the time).
 
one more thing - TCS doesn't necessarily reduce throttle input - in most cars today, it functions by applying the brakes to the spinning wheel... it's basically the other end of the spectrum from ABS. it monitors the wheel speed relative to the car speed and clamps down on that wheel if it goes to fast (much like abs *releases* the brake on a wheel going too slow!)

so yeah - TCS WILL DEFINITELY slow you down - it's putting the brakes on.
 
Elegy
I mean no offense, but you may have a problem with your controller, then. You can indeed vary the amount of throttle and brake you apply by varying how hard you hold the buttons. I will admit that it doesn't take very much pressure for full throttle or brake, though (I've had to teach myself not to put a ton of pressure on them all the time).
Sorry, you are wrong. The buttons on the controller are in no way analog. Holding them gently only causes a stutter effect on the control, giving the impression of sensitivity. Press the button and it's full bore throttle.
 
Elegy has a most definite point DK.

The sensitivity of the buttons on the DS2 is quite high. For GT3, I used the triggers on the front rather than the 'traditional' buttons on the top because they have a slightly longer 'throw' but I could very easily modulate my throttle and brake inputs.

It's not as easy to do as it is with the DFP I use now obviously but it still worked well enough for me to hold a desired rev-range at the lights and put on quarter, half, three-quarter throttle.

If you're finding that the analogue effect isn't working on yours then I would guess that either the controllers broken (I got through several in my GT3 career when the thottle button went 'binary' on me) or you actually have a DS1 rather than a DS2.
 
I only made a few attempts at the 1/4 mile speeds. You might try some of my experimentation to a farther degree. Now during the run, generally time the gas pedel to go from mid RPM, RPM's increaseing to just below the redline when timer to 0.000. Each car has a different optimum launch RPM, and it is another factor that must be found. It can make a few 10th difference, but when you get the feel of it, you narrow it down to in the 100th.

Keep this in mind... What follows is not all certain, and if it conflicts with others, try that too, and please... let us know what works well.

1) Use Automatic Transmission for consistency in finding the optimum settings. Once the settings are determine, the manual shift must be used for best times.
2) set camber and toe to 0 as you are only going strait
3) Set the HP and Tires like you want, probably max power and R5. I wonder if R1 will help on the non-drive axle? If a car has max NA, max Turbo, and SC at HP values withing perhaps 5%, consider that max HP might not be best. Try the one with the strongest torque band as well if it is broader and/or stronger 20-25% below the top RPM.
4) You at lest need the 1-way axle. I think the best setup for the axle is Full Custon with acceleration setting to max (min? for earliest lock). I simply always used this setting without experimentation, so not certain.
5) Experiment with the suspension to your satifaction. I think you want to keep the springs/bound/rebound relatively loose, height mid range and rear higher than front. However, I did very little here. I believe the best stabilizer setting is max. It is possible that a sport suspension or semi race might be better than the full. In the real world, a drag suspension and race suspension are completely different in the physics behind their geometry. If the GT4 physics simulation is correct for height, it changes the front/rear weight transfer during acceleration and highest might be right for some cars. We are changing the center of gravity angle to the drive axle. Remember, we do not need to set low for cornering.
6) Do trial runs and find the right transmission setting. Normally, the full custom transmission with the spacing set to finish high RPM in 4th or 5th, however, the standard, sport, or semi race might end up being the optimim as well. Make at least 3 runs per setting and increase and decrease final and/or auto till you find your best point. Anytime you cross a point where you use and extra gear, or one less gear, you add or subtract a small time of acceleration. Keep this in mind as it may appear you are going the wrong way, but continuing may end up being better. At the moment, just get close and refine it later.
7) now, find the optimum TCS setting. I have found normally 7-8 gives the best times, but I was testing cars with at least 800HP. Unless when you drive, you can very accurately control the optimim RPM during tirespin, you will need this. Even if you can, Use this for consistency to find the other optimum setting. Make a few runs with various settings, and use the best.
8) Now, find out if Ballast over the drive axle helps. It doesn't immediately make sense that adding weight makes the car go quicker, but what is does is add traction over the drive wheels. This generally gives better times on light cars to about 100KG. 200KG is needed on the TVR Speed 12.... Make several runs. I am not certain, but I believe you want the weight over the rear axle of a 4WD as well. In the case of regular cars, it is likely best to do stage 3 weight reduction, then place weight over the rear axle. I don't consider FF cars 1/4 mile racers, but of course, place the ballast in the front for a FF if you are silly enough to use a FF.
9) Now, fine tune the values of steps 4-8. When setting the transmission again, it is often benificial to set 1st-3rd to lower numbers and 5th-6th to higher nimbers (might be 1-2 and 4-5 or 6 on other transmissions), making the transmission closer range than auto-1. If you do this, always use final to change ratio's once you find the spacing you like.
10) change your options to manual shift. Be consistent at launch RPM's and experiment with starting in 1'st, 2nd, or 3rd being best at launch, then shift RPMs too. Most cars have an optimum shift point either above or below the red line, and it varies also at each shift, i.e. 3-4th shift point optimum different than 4-5th shift point. Generally, the times will be substantially better now with starting in 2nd or 3rd gear and manual shifting. Now make changes as needed on the final drive ratios as needed. Often, you will hit the RPM limit and have to increase the final number a little at this point.

Good luck with all this. Hope it helps. It takes a long time to find the best settings. Once you find the best, I recomment taking TCS to 0 and try to find the best RPM for tirespin and acceleration. I have not done this on my attempts, but would if I was serious about 1/4 mile times.

A note on transmission tuning. If you want a full range during all races 1/4 mile or otherwise, and cloer range than auto-1, do the following:

1) Set final to about 3/4 of maximum and make not of the number. Should give a nice range for adjusting top speed on fastest tracks, and best acceleration for slow curvy tracks.
2) Set Auto to 1. If already on 1 or 2, move it away from 1, then to 1.
3) Set first gear and top gear to maximum
4) Set second gear to minimum
5) Set 3rd to 5th (if 6 gears) as needed for the mild curve normall seen, or flat shape.. Linear is geneally best if using automatic shift, expoential (curved) is generally better for manual shift. Note that with linear the best shift point will be the same at each gear and with linear, decreases as gears progress.
6) Never make auto changes from this point, only adjust Final Drive for optimum max speed for the track. Set final drive to lower numbers for high speed tracks and higher numbers for max optainable speed for short tracks with no room for attaining high speed. If full range not attainable for slowest to fastest track, then the 3/4 point in step 1 may need a starting point higher or lower. Use the test tracks for Top Speed and 400 meter to test if you have full range adjustment with the final.
 
To all you guys and WildCobra especally, thanks for all the help. Im taking it really slow now. Trying to focus on the final drive ratio. Im just tweaking it a little bit each run. For each change I make I have 4 runs and the average of each change. Im almost done with it so if anyone wants to check it out itll be a new post.

The car Iam using is only meant for the quarter mile. Im not going to use it for anything else, so that may answer some questions as to how it would handle on a certain course.

Its a WRX, so its 4WD. Ive kept the VCD set at 50, so its a "true" four wheel drive car. I mainly did this for good 60ft. launch times. It seems to work so far.

As for the TCS, its at 7. It was like this when I got it. I tried changing it, but only found that 7 was the best setting for it. Another thing I realized was that the tires actually DO spin.

At this point, Im not going for tuning each individual gear, Im just trying to find the area where the car performs best. Then, Ill spend some time tuning the gearbox.

Ballast adds weight? Ive used it before, but it hasn't worked all the time? I wouldnt want to add weight. If you have any questions about what Im doing with the final drive, Ill have the post up soon enough. Im sure it will help somewhat.
 
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