Make old cars feel old again in GT7.

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 7' started by DefNotJake, Sep 23, 2020.

  1. DefNotJake

    DefNotJake

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    Recently took the time to grind 15,000,000 Cr. for the Shelby Daytona and wow, the car feels awful. It just feels like a Gr.3 car with leaf spring suspension. I actually find this issue worse if you drive with a controller, because it just makes the car feel super twitchy. I absolutely agree with anyone that says GT Sports physics are the best they have been in the series... but I swear I remember vintage cars in past games feeling a little bit more believable than this?

    This is what the car handles like with the default setup and tires, with no assists. (except ABS). Notice how twitchy the car is by having so much grip, and how I can press the throttle as hard as I want on corner exit, and have no risk of the car sliding out. Not even a little bit. The car is almost boring to drive because of this, and makes me wonder why anyone would want to buy this considering the price.



    Default setup with a Wheel (G29)

    Now compare this to the real counterpart:




    It's not that the physics in GT are bad, but the tire model on the car (Which are modeled as vintage bias ply Goodyear tires for some reason) is lazy. PD aren't taking advantage of their own physics engine. I wondered if I could somehow fix this by equipping street tires, so I did a bit of trial and error to find a combination that made the car feel how it should while still keeping the 'casual friendly' aspect of Gran Turismo. After finding a combination that works, I recorded gameplay of the end result. Combined with the suspension physics improvements in GT Sport with the leaf springs and low-grip tires, it was very fun and rewarding (as vintage race cars in this game should be). You be the judge.


    Only changes I made are Comfort Soft tires in the front, and Comfort Hards in the rear. No assists. (except ABS).

    I made this setup as proof that you can make the Vintage cars still 'feel old', without it feeling too much like a simulation, or without it being impossible to drive with a controller. Notice how careful I have to be with throttle application this time around, and now I have correct slides when they happen. I find the car with less grip easier to control with a controller compared to the default setup, because its much less twitchy, and easier to keep the car where I want it because of it. With the wheel, its just much more fun in general, and each corner super rewarding.



    'Vintage Setup' with a Wheel (G29)

    Understeer happens on corner entries, but rotates very nicely in the form of very controllable sliding once you get on the throttle. On the controller, it has the same main characteristics felt with the wheel, but with a controller the sliding is still very easy to correct, or hold. The feel overall isn't too difficult, but still has lots of character, and even reflects the real world counterpart well. Unlike with the previous default tires, where the car had no unique traits beside being shockingly boring to drive.

    Best ways to make the cars feel old again is to either tweak the tire model of older cars to reflect the lack of grip provided with bias ply tires, or just give players the option to add Vintage tires to their car. Hopefully PD have this in mind already for GT7. (and maybe they will get rid of Gr.x class too?)
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  2. Samus

    Samus

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    Yes the tyres are the main problem, the old racing cars absolutely shouldn't be running with the modern racing tyres.
     
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  3. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Its not just the tyre model (which does still need work), but also the damper model in GT that is the issue.

    All of the cars in GTS are over-damped and it's particularly noticeable in the vintage machinery.

    To see it clearly take a car to a rally stage and watch a replay after a jump, the dampers will have one compression and one extension cycle and that's it. In reality, even with rally-spec cars you will have more bound and rebound cycles than this.
     
  4. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    I thought PD tried to show a new suspension model with the A110 demo. Obviously, they didn't deliver.

    The KW and Yokohama partnership faded.

    We'll see if the Michelin partnership yields any changes. I feel PD need a (good)consultant for the suspensions.
     
  5. TheCracker

    TheCracker Premium

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    PD's tire modelling on vintage stuff is something i've found frustrating since they started adding more classic racing cars to their line up. Keeping the same tire modelling as the contemporary cars is understandable with the limitations of the PS1 and PS2, but these days it's inexcusable. If you can model the correct crackle finish texture to the Daytona's dashboard, you can at least have a stab at modelling how high-profile crossply/bias period racing tires perform. I would guess that most road going cars that originally ran on cross-bias tires will these days be wearing more modern radials, for safety reasons as much as anything. But as a majority of GT Sports' vintage/classics are racing versions they will, in real life, be running vintage crossply racing tires. If realism is a goal, this is something they should be addressing.
     
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  6. CLowndes888

    CLowndes888

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    Classic racecars need classic tyres or you won't get the full effect. You shouldn't be able to fit modern racing tyres on these cars because they never had them. PD need to do their homework and offer period-correct tyre choices.
     
  7. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    I can argue against the request to fit period tires. I fit Firestone Indy 500s, sized 235/65-15, wrapped around 15x8 Aero 50s, on my '69 Cutlass. Preferred the modern tyres for wet weather and the lower sidewalls for better road holding.

    PD would have to change the whole suspension set up first. That's the issue I see the most(as Scaff mentioned about the dampers). The spring rates are too high. Anti-roll bars are set too high. Especially if a car doesn't have any fitted(looking at you MINI Mini Cooper S '65).

    PD got some bits and pieces correct, with some cars peg-legging under acceleration.

    While I'm remembering, the Cobra Coupe suspension seems just like how a classic car should behave at full tilt. Suspension squats while inside front wheel lifts. Again, for the most part, the classic car suspensions are too stiff.
     
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  8. Jaykos

    Jaykos

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    Yeah i don't think that all cars should come standard with sport hard tyres. I always change to comfort soft to get a closer to street car feel.

    Hopefully the michelin partnership pays off for gt7. Its bound to be more realistic than gts as all games move the bar forward. Hopefully its by a large amount. The game can still be easy to pick up and play with good controller settings and assists.
     
  9. TheCracker

    TheCracker Premium

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    It depends on how PD perceives the classic race cars it models. If they see them as just out of the museum and hitting the track then yeah, they would be running suspension too stiff. But if they are looking at the stuff that runs at Goodwood etc, these are now running much stiffer then they ever did in period. They have much stiffer roll cages now then they ever ran in period, which in effect stiffens the shell and allows them to effectively use much heavier duty spring rates then they ever did in period. Also the cars in period ran for maybe three seasons before they were mothballed. The classic racing scene has been active and well established for more than thirty years now so the cars are much more developed. The dampers they run may look period but they have been in constant development and work so much better now.
     
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  10. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    The Mini Cooper S '65 does have a roll bar and skid plates. The Renault 8 has a roll bar. 356A, roll bar. I don't know if PD chose to program those suspension settings to mimic a race/rally specification.

    These are specs for Nc Production Minis:

    SECTION 1 - CHASSIS
    1.1 CHASSIS FRAME
    Description: Uni – body
    Period of Manufacture: Jan 1965 to end of 1971
    Manufacturer: British Motor Corporation
    Chassis no. from: YKG2S2**** or YKG2S4****
    Chassis no. location: Various
    Material: Steel
    1.2 FRONT SUSPENSION
    Description: Independent, Upper & lower arms with lower castor bar.
    Spring Medium: Rubber cone or Hydrolastic
    Damper Type: Telescopic Adjustable: No
    Anti-sway bar: Fitted Adjustable: No
    Suspension adjustable: No
    Comments:
    1.3 REAR SUSPENSION
    Description: Independent, with trailing arms
    Spring medium: Rubber cone or Hydrolastic
    Damper type: Telescopic Adjustable: No
    Anti-sway bar: Fitted Adjustable: No
    Suspension adjustable: No
    1.4 STEERING
    Type: Rack & pinion Make: BMC
    1.5 BRAKES
    Front Rear
    Type: Disc, solid Drum, single leading shoe
    Dimensions: 190 x 9.5 mm 178 x 31.75 mm
    Material: Cast iron Cast iron
    No. cylinders/pots per wheel: Two One
    Actuation: Hydraulic Hydraulic
    Caliper Make: Lockheed
    Caliper Type: Fixed
    Caliper Material: Cast iron
    Master cylinder make: Lockheed Type: Single
    Adjustable bias: No
    Servo Fitted: Yes
     
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  11. LeGeNd-1

    LeGeNd-1 Premium

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    While I agree with OP that the vintage race cars have a lot of problems in GTS, they are a lot better than in previous games IMO. Back in GT5/6 the physics engine was way stiffer. Cars like the 250 GTO and old muscle cars have as much body roll as modern cars. In GTS you can at least feel they are "floppier" (though still overdamped, like Scaff said).

    Group C used to be a lot faster than modern LMPs in GT5/6 because their aero was treated equal. Now in GTS you can feel they have less downforce (even though the numbers in settings screen says the same). But there are still cars which shouldn't have downforce, which are given values because they are racing cars (e.g. 250 GTO, Cobra Daytona).

    The tyre problem is the main issue. The default tyres are too grippy. If you use Comfort/Sport tyres, the lateral grip is a lot closer to real but in turn the longitudinal grip suffers. Old tyres also have different characteristics than modern tyre, and none of GT's generic compounds simulate it. Tyre flex is still pretty much non-existent (or if it does, the FFB doesn't do a good job of communicating it). And don't even get me started on ABS off implementation...

    Still, PD have a long way to go if they want to match the feeling of classic cars in AC or AMS. Hell, even GT Legends still blows GT away after all these years. And that was based on a physics engine that came out around the time of GT4 :crazy:
     
  12. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    My idea would be that you wouldn't be able to turn on TCS/ABS/BB/etc. in the options menu and have it be on or off for every car, but instead, its presence or absence would depend on if the car actually had it in real life. So for example, I think the McLaren F1 came without TCS. If a player doesn't like that, then I'd give them the option to buy a part that enables it.

    I'd also do something very similar for transmissions, where you also would not be able to simply pick from MT/AT in the options, but it would follow-up with how in GT Sport, if you enter the settings for a given car, you can see its transmission. So some cars have a manual with a clutch, some are sequential manuals, CVTs, automatic, etc. and this is listed in the settings menu. (I was quite surprised with how some cars are actually automatic, such as the Ferrari 458.) Similar to above, I'd give players the option to buy transmissions, such as upgrading a typical manual to a sequential manual, but I'd also allow players to map a button for the clutch. If they decide not to, then the clutch could be done automatically like in GTS, which would be like how you can have windshield wipers be turned on automatically if you don't map a button for their activation. But at the same time, I'd make it very advantageous to have the clutch mapped to the controller, as I think it's also more fun that way, and furthermore, it would add more character to the various cars if the transmissions worked on a car-by-car basis.

    Alternatively, maybe there could be a "Real" option that could be set for an event or lobby, for both transmissions and assists, much like how there's a "Real" setting for traction on wet surfaces and slipstream. Perhaps it could be simply be called "Transmission Setting" and the "Real" option would have the car behave with its actual transmission type. Meanwhile, this would compliment the ability to either permit or prohibit a given assist for a lobby/event, or have a "Real" option for that assist. So for TCS/ABS, there'd be an additional "Real" option which would have the car behave with the real-world assists that it would come with, or lack thereof.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  13. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    I think AC1 or PC1 has that option, "Authentic", when selecting car set up. If you the car doesn't have ABS, you're out of luck.
     
  14. Farnell42

    Farnell42

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    Well, unpopular opinion here, but when you drive old cars daily, or some heavy track work, do you use old tyres as they are? I guess not, for safety and tire wear concerns. Maybe you would fit the latest road, or if you take it to the track, new track tyres. Unlike hardcore simulators such as GT Legends(which heavily focus on historic reenactions), in Gran Turismo, the old can live with the new. We have seen the McLaren F1 GTR(from 1995) in Group 3 and the Mazda 787B(from 1991) in Group 1 competing with the latest sports cars. To better fit those cars within current motorsport restrictions, they should be somewhat 'modernized', like using current motorsport-grade tyre compounds or modern Anti-Roll Bars. That said, I still get why you are so upset about enabling ABS on a 60s muscle car since you wouldn't get them in the dealership as is; although it wouldn't hurt if ABS and TCS are available as separate 'upgrades' in GT Auto like it did in the first 2 games.

    EDIT: Maybe I get the tire tread issues as well; you should get period-correct road and race tyres(for example, for a Dodge Challenger R/T '70 (it is from 1970, but I will count it as a 60s car as the car started production late '69), the tyres would be like; CH/CM/CS/SH 60s/SM 60s/SS 60s/SH/SM/SS/RH 60s/RM 60s/RS 60s/RH/RM/RS/RSS/Wet 60s/Intermediate Wet/Heavy Wet/Dirt/Ice), but only for those who are eligible for those tyres(cars built in-period). That said, upgrades to modern tires should still be available and should retain their characteristics like in other GT games.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  15. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    PD saw fit to model the tyre treads like the period tyres. Just like PD have track surface data, I'd wager they also have period tyre compound/construction/performance data.

    The old KW & Yokohama "partnership" is gone. Michelin are partners for the meantime. Maybe we get properly performing tyres from different eras.
     
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  16. Shingo_civic

    Shingo_civic

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    One year and a half ago or more they introduced a somewhat more "bouncy" physics but then they removed it again when they introduced the super understeery physics,idk why since it was so much better

     
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  17. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    Been saying this for years. GT needs completely new tire model. We were promised a new one to come as of the Michelin partnership, but it never did.

    @Scaff your video pls? :p
     
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  18. mwoodski

    mwoodski

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    It may very well have been announced to update signboards and such in GTS, but with the new tire model to come for GT7.
     
  19. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    Yeah it was supposed to come for GT SPORT ;)
     
  20. CLowndes888

    CLowndes888

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    The constant fiddling with the physics was completely unnecessary and I don't know why it was done.