Make old cars feel old again in GT7.

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Recently took the time to grind 15,000,000 Cr. for the Shelby Daytona and wow, the car feels awful. It just feels like a Gr.3 car with leaf spring suspension. I actually find this issue worse if you drive with a controller, because it just makes the car feel super twitchy. I absolutely agree with anyone that says GT Sports physics are the best they have been in the series... but I swear I remember vintage cars in past games feeling a little bit more believable than this?

This is what the car handles like with the default setup and tires, with no assists. (except ABS). Notice how twitchy the car is by having so much grip, and how I can press the throttle as hard as I want on corner exit, and have no risk of the car sliding out. Not even a little bit. The car is almost boring to drive because of this, and makes me wonder why anyone would want to buy this considering the price.



Default setup with a Wheel (G29)

Now compare this to the real counterpart:




It's not that the physics in GT are bad, but the tire model on the car (Which are modeled as vintage bias ply Goodyear tires for some reason) is lazy. PD aren't taking advantage of their own physics engine. I wondered if I could somehow fix this by equipping street tires, so I did a bit of trial and error to find a combination that made the car feel how it should while still keeping the 'casual friendly' aspect of Gran Turismo. After finding a combination that works, I recorded gameplay of the end result. Combined with the suspension physics improvements in GT Sport with the leaf springs and low-grip tires, it was very fun and rewarding (as vintage race cars in this game should be). You be the judge.


Only changes I made are Comfort Soft tires in the front, and Comfort Hards in the rear. No assists. (except ABS).

I made this setup as proof that you can make the Vintage cars still 'feel old', without it feeling too much like a simulation, or without it being impossible to drive with a controller. Notice how careful I have to be with throttle application this time around, and now I have correct slides when they happen. I find the car with less grip easier to control with a controller compared to the default setup, because its much less twitchy, and easier to keep the car where I want it because of it. With the wheel, its just much more fun in general, and each corner super rewarding.



'Vintage Setup' with a Wheel (G29)

Understeer happens on corner entries, but rotates very nicely in the form of very controllable sliding once you get on the throttle. On the controller, it has the same main characteristics felt with the wheel, but with a controller the sliding is still very easy to correct, or hold. The feel overall isn't too difficult, but still has lots of character, and even reflects the real world counterpart well. Unlike with the previous default tires, where the car had no unique traits beside being shockingly boring to drive.

Best ways to make the cars feel old again is to either tweak the tire model of older cars to reflect the lack of grip provided with bias ply tires, or just give players the option to add Vintage tires to their car. Hopefully PD have this in mind already for GT7. (and maybe they will get rid of Gr.x class too?)
 
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Scaff

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Its not just the tyre model (which does still need work), but also the damper model in GT that is the issue.

All of the cars in GTS are over-damped and it's particularly noticeable in the vintage machinery.

To see it clearly take a car to a rally stage and watch a replay after a jump, the dampers will have one compression and one extension cycle and that's it. In reality, even with rally-spec cars you will have more bound and rebound cycles than this.
 
39,249
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The Bronx
I thought PD tried to show a new suspension model with the A110 demo. Obviously, they didn't deliver.

The KW and Yokohama partnership faded.

We'll see if the Michelin partnership yields any changes. I feel PD need a (good)consultant for the suspensions.
 

TheCracker

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PD's tire modelling on vintage stuff is something i've found frustrating since they started adding more classic racing cars to their line up. Keeping the same tire modelling as the contemporary cars is understandable with the limitations of the PS1 and PS2, but these days it's inexcusable. If you can model the correct crackle finish texture to the Daytona's dashboard, you can at least have a stab at modelling how high-profile crossply/bias period racing tires perform. I would guess that most road going cars that originally ran on cross-bias tires will these days be wearing more modern radials, for safety reasons as much as anything. But as a majority of GT Sports' vintage/classics are racing versions they will, in real life, be running vintage crossply racing tires. If realism is a goal, this is something they should be addressing.
 

ScottPye20

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Classic racecars need classic tyres or you won't get the full effect. You shouldn't be able to fit modern racing tyres on these cars because they never had them. PD need to do their homework and offer period-correct tyre choices.
 
39,249
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The Bronx
I can argue against the request to fit period tires. I fit Firestone Indy 500s, sized 235/65-15, wrapped around 15x8 Aero 50s, on my '69 Cutlass. Preferred the modern tyres for wet weather and the lower sidewalls for better road holding.

PD would have to change the whole suspension set up first. That's the issue I see the most(as Scaff mentioned about the dampers). The spring rates are too high. Anti-roll bars are set too high. Especially if a car doesn't have any fitted(looking at you MINI Mini Cooper S '65).

PD got some bits and pieces correct, with some cars peg-legging under acceleration.

While I'm remembering, the Cobra Coupe suspension seems just like how a classic car should behave at full tilt. Suspension squats while inside front wheel lifts. Again, for the most part, the classic car suspensions are too stiff.
 
10
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Yeah i don't think that all cars should come standard with sport hard tyres. I always change to comfort soft to get a closer to street car feel.

Hopefully the michelin partnership pays off for gt7. Its bound to be more realistic than gts as all games move the bar forward. Hopefully its by a large amount. The game can still be easy to pick up and play with good controller settings and assists.
 

TheCracker

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I can argue against the request to fit period tires. I fit Firestone Indy 500s, sized 235/65-15, wrapped around 15x8 Aero 50s, on my '69 Cutlass. Preferred the modern tyres for wet weather and the lower sidewalls for better road holding.

PD would have to change the whole suspension set up first. That's the issue I see the most(as Scaff mentioned about the dampers). The spring rates are too high. Anti-roll bars are set too high. Especially if a car doesn't have any fitted(looking at you MINI Mini Cooper S '65).

PD got some bits and pieces correct, with some cars peg-legging under acceleration.

While I'm remembering, the Cobra Coupe suspension seems just like how a classic car should behave at full tilt. Suspension squats while inside front wheel lifts. Again, for the most part, the classic car suspensions are too stiff.

It depends on how PD perceives the classic race cars it models. If they see them as just out of the museum and hitting the track then yeah, they would be running suspension too stiff. But if they are looking at the stuff that runs at Goodwood etc, these are now running much stiffer then they ever did in period. They have much stiffer roll cages now then they ever ran in period, which in effect stiffens the shell and allows them to effectively use much heavier duty spring rates then they ever did in period. Also the cars in period ran for maybe three seasons before they were mothballed. The classic racing scene has been active and well established for more than thirty years now so the cars are much more developed. The dampers they run may look period but they have been in constant development and work so much better now.
 
39,249
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The Bronx
The Mini Cooper S '65 does have a roll bar and skid plates. The Renault 8 has a roll bar. 356A, roll bar. I don't know if PD chose to program those suspension settings to mimic a race/rally specification.

These are specs for Nc Production Minis:

SECTION 1 - CHASSIS
1.1 CHASSIS FRAME
Description: Uni – body
Period of Manufacture: Jan 1965 to end of 1971
Manufacturer: British Motor Corporation
Chassis no. from: YKG2S2**** or YKG2S4****
Chassis no. location: Various
Material: Steel
1.2 FRONT SUSPENSION
Description: Independent, Upper & lower arms with lower castor bar.
Spring Medium: Rubber cone or Hydrolastic
Damper Type: Telescopic Adjustable: No
Anti-sway bar: Fitted Adjustable: No
Suspension adjustable: No
Comments:
1.3 REAR SUSPENSION
Description: Independent, with trailing arms
Spring medium: Rubber cone or Hydrolastic
Damper type: Telescopic Adjustable: No
Anti-sway bar: Fitted Adjustable: No
Suspension adjustable: No
1.4 STEERING
Type: Rack & pinion Make: BMC
1.5 BRAKES
Front Rear
Type: Disc, solid Drum, single leading shoe
Dimensions: 190 x 9.5 mm 178 x 31.75 mm
Material: Cast iron Cast iron
No. cylinders/pots per wheel: Two One
Actuation: Hydraulic Hydraulic
Caliper Make: Lockheed
Caliper Type: Fixed
Caliper Material: Cast iron
Master cylinder make: Lockheed Type: Single
Adjustable bias: No
Servo Fitted: Yes
 

LeGeNd-1

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While I agree with OP that the vintage race cars have a lot of problems in GTS, they are a lot better than in previous games IMO. Back in GT5/6 the physics engine was way stiffer. Cars like the 250 GTO and old muscle cars have as much body roll as modern cars. In GTS you can at least feel they are "floppier" (though still overdamped, like Scaff said).

Group C used to be a lot faster than modern LMPs in GT5/6 because their aero was treated equal. Now in GTS you can feel they have less downforce (even though the numbers in settings screen says the same). But there are still cars which shouldn't have downforce, which are given values because they are racing cars (e.g. 250 GTO, Cobra Daytona).

The tyre problem is the main issue. The default tyres are too grippy. If you use Comfort/Sport tyres, the lateral grip is a lot closer to real but in turn the longitudinal grip suffers. Old tyres also have different characteristics than modern tyre, and none of GT's generic compounds simulate it. Tyre flex is still pretty much non-existent (or if it does, the FFB doesn't do a good job of communicating it). And don't even get me started on ABS off implementation...

Still, PD have a long way to go if they want to match the feeling of classic cars in AC or AMS. Hell, even GT Legends still blows GT away after all these years. And that was based on a physics engine that came out around the time of GT4 :crazy:
 
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My idea would be that you wouldn't be able to turn on TCS/ABS/BB/etc. in the options menu and have it be on or off for every car, but instead, its presence or absence would depend on if the car actually had it in real life. So for example, I think the McLaren F1 came without TCS. If a player doesn't like that, then I'd give them the option to buy a part that enables it.

I'd also do something very similar for transmissions, where you also would not be able to simply pick from MT/AT in the options, but it would follow-up with how in GT Sport, if you enter the settings for a given car, you can see its transmission. So some cars have a manual with a clutch, some are sequential manuals, CVTs, automatic, etc. and this is listed in the settings menu. (I was quite surprised with how some cars are actually automatic, such as the Ferrari 458.) Similar to above, I'd give players the option to buy transmissions, such as upgrading a typical manual to a sequential manual, but I'd also allow players to map a button for the clutch. If they decide not to, then the clutch could be done automatically like in GTS, which would be like how you can have windshield wipers be turned on automatically if you don't map a button for their activation. But at the same time, I'd make it very advantageous to have the clutch mapped to the controller, as I think it's also more fun that way, and furthermore, it would add more character to the various cars if the transmissions worked on a car-by-car basis.

Alternatively, maybe there could be a "Real" option that could be set for an event or lobby, for both transmissions and assists, much like how there's a "Real" setting for traction on wet surfaces and slipstream. Perhaps it could be simply be called "Transmission Setting" and the "Real" option would have the car behave with its actual transmission type. Meanwhile, this would compliment the ability to either permit or prohibit a given assist for a lobby/event, or have a "Real" option for that assist. So for TCS/ABS, there'd be an additional "Real" option which would have the car behave with the real-world assists that it would come with, or lack thereof.
 
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64
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Well, unpopular opinion here, but when you drive old cars daily, or some heavy track work, do you use old tyres as they are? I guess not, for safety and tire wear concerns. Maybe you would fit the latest road, or if you take it to the track, new track tyres. Unlike hardcore simulators such as GT Legends(which heavily focus on historic reenactions), in Gran Turismo, the old can live with the new. We have seen the McLaren F1 GTR(from 1995) in Group 3 and the Mazda 787B(from 1991) in Group 1 competing with the latest sports cars. To better fit those cars within current motorsport restrictions, they should be somewhat 'modernized', like using current motorsport-grade tyre compounds or modern Anti-Roll Bars. That said, I still get why you are so upset about enabling ABS on a 60s muscle car since you wouldn't get them in the dealership as is; although it wouldn't hurt if ABS and TCS are available as separate 'upgrades' in GT Auto like it did in the first 2 games.

EDIT: Maybe I get the tire tread issues as well; you should get period-correct road and race tyres(for example, for a Dodge Challenger R/T '70 (it is from 1970, but I will count it as a 60s car as the car started production late '69), the tyres would be like; CH/CM/CS/SH 60s/SM 60s/SS 60s/SH/SM/SS/RH 60s/RM 60s/RS 60s/RH/RM/RS/RSS/Wet 60s/Intermediate Wet/Heavy Wet/Dirt/Ice), but only for those who are eligible for those tyres(cars built in-period). That said, upgrades to modern tires should still be available and should retain their characteristics like in other GT games.
 
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39,249
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PD saw fit to model the tyre treads like the period tyres. Just like PD have track surface data, I'd wager they also have period tyre compound/construction/performance data.

The old KW & Yokohama "partnership" is gone. Michelin are partners for the meantime. Maybe we get properly performing tyres from different eras.
 
551
Italy
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Its not just the tyre model (which does still need work), but also the damper model in GT that is the issue.

All of the cars in GTS are over-damped and it's particularly noticeable in the vintage machinery.

To see it clearly take a car to a rally stage and watch a replay after a jump, the dampers will have one compression and one extension cycle and that's it. In reality, even with rally-spec cars you will have more bound and rebound cycles than this.
One year and a half ago or more they introduced a somewhat more "bouncy" physics but then they removed it again when they introduced the super understeery physics,idk why since it was so much better

 
2,624
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Been saying this for years. GT needs completely new tire model. We were promised a new one to come as of the Michelin partnership, but it never did.

@Scaff your video pls? :P
It may very well have been announced to update signboards and such in GTS, but with the new tire model to come for GT7.
 

ScottPye20

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One year and a half ago or more they introduced a somewhat more "bouncy" physics but then they removed it again when they introduced the super understeery physics,idk why since it was so much better


The constant fiddling with the physics was completely unnecessary and I don't know why it was done.
 
907
India
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AfraidRacer
AfraidRacer17
Recently took the time to grind 15,000,000 Cr. for the Shelby Daytona and wow, the car feels awful. It just feels like a Gr.3 car with leaf spring suspension. I actually find this issue worse if you drive with a controller, because it just makes the car feel super twitchy. I absolutely agree with anyone that says GT Sports physics are the best they have been in the series... but I swear I remember vintage cars in past games feeling a little bit more believable than this?

This is what the car handles like with the default setup and tires, with no assists. (except ABS). Notice how twitchy the car is by having so much grip, and how I can press the throttle as hard as I want on corner exit, and have no risk of the car sliding out. Not even a little bit. The car is almost boring to drive because of this, and makes me wonder why anyone would want to buy this considering the price.



Default setup with a Wheel (G29)

Now compare this to the real counterpart:




It's not that the physics in GT are bad, but the tire model on the car (Which are modeled as vintage bias ply Goodyear tires for some reason) is lazy. PD aren't taking advantage of their own physics engine. I wondered if I could somehow fix this by equipping street tires, so I did a bit of trial and error to find a combination that made the car feel how it should while still keeping the 'casual friendly' aspect of Gran Turismo. After finding a combination that works, I recorded gameplay of the end result. Combined with the suspension physics improvements in GT Sport with the leaf springs and low-grip tires, it was very fun and rewarding (as vintage race cars in this game should be). You be the judge.


Only changes I made are Comfort Soft tires in the front, and Comfort Hards in the rear. No assists. (except ABS).

I made this setup as proof that you can make the Vintage cars still 'feel old', without it feeling too much like a simulation, or without it being impossible to drive with a controller. Notice how careful I have to be with throttle application this time around, and now I have correct slides when they happen. I find the car with less grip easier to control with a controller compared to the default setup, because its much less twitchy, and easier to keep the car where I want it because of it. With the wheel, its just much more fun in general, and each corner super rewarding.



'Vintage Setup' with a Wheel (G29)

Understeer happens on corner entries, but rotates very nicely in the form of very controllable sliding once you get on the throttle. On the controller, it has the same main characteristics felt with the wheel, but with a controller the sliding is still very easy to correct, or hold. The feel overall isn't too difficult, but still has lots of character, and even reflects the real world counterpart well. Unlike with the previous default tires, where the car had no unique traits beside being shockingly boring to drive.

Best ways to make the cars feel old again is to either tweak the tire model of older cars to reflect the lack of grip provided with bias ply tires, or just give players the option to add Vintage tires to their car. Hopefully PD have this in mind already for GT7. (and maybe they will get rid of Gr.x class too?)

Gotta say I agree with you here, but what is the objective of this thread?
You provided the solution yourself, CS front, CH rear.
It's obviously not right to put the same tires you would on a Gr.3 on a 60's car?
I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, but the solution is clearly there in game and PD doesn't need to make old cars feel old again because YOU can do it yourself?
 

LeGeNd-1

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Gotta say I agree with you here, but what is the objective of this thread?
You provided the solution yourself, CS front, CH rear.
It's obviously not right to put the same tires you would on a Gr.3 on a 60's car?
I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, but the solution is clearly there in game and PD doesn't need to make old cars feel old again because YOU can do it yourself?

No, it's a poor bandaid solution to the problem.

You shouldn't have to mix tyre compounds to get correct handling if the default tyres are modelled correctly for period specific cars. Also using the Comfort tyres give comparable lateral grip to real life, but longitudinal grip is too low.

Also not everyone has the time, or automotive knowledge, to know which tyres to put on which car. GT just has 10 generic dry weather tyres to suit everything from a Fiat 500 to an F1 car, which is obviously not accurate. If PD does their homework properly, every car should have a unique "default" tyre. In Assetto for example, you can select between Hypercar Road and Trofeo R for McLaren P1. For Lamborghini Miura you have generic 70s vintage tyre or Pirelli Cinturato. For F1 cars you have Ultrasoft/Supersoft/Soft/Med/Hard and so on.

That's just the tyre issue. If you take the time to read through the other posts, people have explained what other things are not accurate in GT.
 
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Scaff

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Gotta say I agree with you here, but what is the objective of this thread?
You provided the solution yourself, CS front, CH rear.
It's obviously not right to put the same tires you would on a Gr.3 on a 60's car?
I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, but the solution is clearly there in game and PD doesn't need to make old cars feel old again because YOU can do it yourself?
I agree with @LeGeNd-1 that it's not a real fix for it, nor does it resolve the issues that GTS has with almost every car being overdamped, something that is noticabily worse on the older cars.
 
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@LeGeNd-1 @Scaff Alright, thanks. I did see assists mentioned a lot, and modifiable transmissions, but I usually automatically use Sports or Comfort Tyres for road cars.
It's also a thing where almost all road cars/slow cars are boring to drive with controller, especially when it comes to long corners like at Goodwood.
I'm not very well versed in physics though, what do you guys think of the 'bouncy' physics? Are those better than what we have now?
Personally I think the physics are fine, although cars like the 458 Gr.3 are a bit unstable and road cars feel like pillows compared to gameplay I've seen from other games. More stable cars like the Corvette Gr.3 also have a tendency to spin without warning, although that's probably just me.
 

LeGeNd-1

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@LeGeNd-1 @Scaff Alright, thanks. I did see assists mentioned a lot, and modifiable transmissions, but I usually automatically use Sports or Comfort Tyres for road cars.
It's also a thing where almost all road cars/slow cars are boring to drive with controller, especially when it comes to long corners like at Goodwood.
I'm not very well versed in physics though, what do you guys think of the 'bouncy' physics? Are those better than what we have now?
Personally I think the physics are fine, although cars like the 458 Gr.3 are a bit unstable and road cars feel like pillows compared to gameplay I've seen from other games. More stable cars like the Corvette Gr.3 also have a tendency to spin without warning, although that's probably just me.

Not sure I'd describe the physics in GTS as "bouncy". If anything it's the opposite and it's not bouncy enough now.

You're right about the 458 Gr.3 being killer. Best advice I can give, is to try out other sims like AC/ACC and compare. Modern GT3 cars don't try to kill you in every corner.

The road cars are better than race cars for me personally, but there are still lots of issues with the default setups.

If you're using controller it can be hard to know what's correct or not, so I suggest invest in a wheel if you can. Also I don't know what your real life driving experience is (and how easy it is to do a track day in India). But I can tell you I did a track day 2 years ago with a V8 Supercar, and the feeling is much closer to AC than GT and confirms all of my suspicions about the inaccuracies of GT's physics engine. It's pretty good for 90% situations and introducing someone to the world of simulation, but when you delve deep, it starts to fall apart really quickly.
 

Scaff

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@LeGeNd-1 @Scaff Alright, thanks. I did see assists mentioned a lot, and modifiable transmissions, but I usually automatically use Sports or Comfort Tyres for road cars.
It's also a thing where almost all road cars/slow cars are boring to drive with controller, especially when it comes to long corners like at Goodwood.
I'm not very well versed in physics though, what do you guys think of the 'bouncy' physics? Are those better than what we have now?
Personally I think the physics are fine, although cars like the 458 Gr.3 are a bit unstable and road cars feel like pillows compared to gameplay I've seen from other games. More stable cars like the Corvette Gr.3 also have a tendency to spin without warning, although that's probably just me.
As @LeGeNd-1 said, GTS is a great 'gateway' sim, its does enough right to start people on a path, but it's still missing a lot that other titles do a whole lot better.

Modern road cars are not too bad within GTS, as the understeer bias and stiff set-up tends to be reasonably accurate up to the limit. The race cars are however a long way from reality, I've amassed quite a bit of track experience over the years in both road and race cars and simply put race cars (again as @LeGeNd-1 said) do not try and murder you with the frequency that they do in GTS, in particular, GTS gets FWD race cars utterly wrong, which is down to issues with its load transfer and damper model, robbing the title of lift-off oversteer.

On console AC and ACC are about the best you will find for physics accuracy, once you get to PC then the world just opens up, with so many titles that, while most certainly don't look as good as GTS does, are so far ahead in terms of physics is almost hard to believe.

Just as a quick example, this is a lap I did in a Formula Renault at Thruxton late last year, and the comparisons I did in Asseto Corsa and Automobilista, in terms of physics and FFB both of these are very close to how the actual car handles (RFactor 2 gets closer still, but I didn't think to include that). All sims miss out on the physical aspect of the real world, and while tactile set-ups help to reflect it and a good load-cell pedal will give you close to the right pedal weight, you will never get the g-force as it affects your body in all directions or how little room you have inside a Formula spec car, but in terms of the actual physics they are getting closer year on year.

 
907
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Not sure I'd describe the physics in GTS as "bouncy". If anything it's the opposite and it's not bouncy enough now.

You're right about the 458 Gr.3 being killer. Best advice I can give, is to try out other sims like AC/ACC and compare. Modern GT3 cars don't try to kill you in every corner.

The road cars are better than race cars for me personally, but there are still lots of issues with the default setups.

If you're using controller it can be hard to know what's correct or not, so I suggest invest in a wheel if you can. Also I don't know what your real life driving experience is (and how easy it is to do a track day in India). But I can tell you I did a track day 2 years ago with a V8 Supercar, and the feeling is much closer to AC than GT and confirms all of my suspicions about the inaccuracies of GT's physics engine. It's pretty good for 90% situations and introducing someone to the world of simulation, but when you delve deep, it starts to fall apart really quickly.
Yeah man, I was referring to the video posted above.(Jag @ DTS)
I do have a wheel, and I've tried GTS, DR2, a very tiny bit of PC2, and ACC.
T300 Alcantara+T3PA btw.
GTS feels by far the most comfortable to me, and Dirt feels great too. As for ACC, I haven't played it properly since my TV keeps having visual glitches on that game. I'm waiting for the TV to come back now lol, then I'll give ACC a proper shot. I can't complain about ACC's physics since it's so highly regarded and I haven't played it much, but the car felt too...uh, how do I put it, Outside to me? Like I was being controlled by the car than me controlling it? GTS feels like driving a toy car with your hands, not in a bad way but in a good way because I know what the car is doing. Maybe it's a camera thing, since I can't properly use bumper cam in ACC whereas I use it all the time in GTS.
I'm gonna try driving some more, but GTS feels like I know everything I'm doing, like steering a hotwheels on a table. But ACC feels like being a passenger and being driven along by G-forces.
As @LeGeNd-1 said, GTS is a great 'gateway' sim, its does enough right to start people on a path, but it's still missing a lot that other titles do a whole lot better.

Modern road cars are not too bad within GTS, as the understeer bias and stiff set-up tends to be reasonably accurate up to the limit. The race cars are however a long way from reality, I've amassed quite a bit of track experience over the years in both road and race cars and simply put race cars (again as @LeGeNd-1 said) do not try and murder you with the frequency that they do in GTS, in particular, GTS gets FWD race cars utterly wrong, which is down to issues with its load transfer and damper model, robbing the title of lift-off oversteer.

On console AC and ACC are about the best you will find for physics accuracy, once you get to PC then the world just opens up, with so many titles that, while most certainly don't look as good as GTS does, are so far ahead in terms of physics is almost hard to believe.

Just as a quick example, this is a lap I did in a Formula Renault at Thruxton late last year, and the comparisons I did in Asseto Corsa and Automobilista, in terms of physics and FFB both of these are very close to how the actual car handles (RFactor 2 gets closer still, but I didn't think to include that). All sims miss out on the physical aspect of the real world, and while tactile set-ups help to reflect it and a good load-cell pedal will give you close to the right pedal weight, you will never get the g-force as it affects your body in all directions or how little room you have inside a Formula spec car, but in terms of the actual physics they are getting closer year on year.


Yeah, like I said to @LeGeNd-1 ACC didn't feel good to me but I'm gonna give it another shot, maybe at Catalunya or something since I know the track. Where I'm at in ACC, I struggle to keep it on track or get any feedback about what the car is doing. If I try to push, I sbinnala or crash. I can do a safe lap, but there's no feeling in the car.
Road cars in GTS feel ok to me from N200-N600, I never was much of a road car fan in GTS but this range is driveable. Anything slower feels too soft to me and anything faster is difficult to brake.
Nice vid btw, I should subscribe to your channel.
 
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LeGeNd-1

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Australia
GTP_LeGeNd-1
Yeah man, I was referring to the video posted above.(Jag @ DTS)
I do have a wheel, and I've tried GTS, DR2, a very tiny bit of PC2, and ACC.
T300 Alcantara+T3PA btw.
GTS feels by far the most comfortable to me, and Dirt feels great too. As for ACC, I haven't played it properly since my TV keeps having visual glitches on that game. I'm waiting for the TV to come back now lol, then I'll give ACC a proper shot. I can't complain about ACC's physics since it's so highly regarded and I haven't played it much, but the car felt too...uh, how do I put it, Outside to me? Like I was being controlled by the car than me controlling it? GTS feels like driving a toy car with your hands, not in a bad way but in a good way because I know what the car is doing. Maybe it's a camera thing, since I can't properly use bumper cam in ACC whereas I use it all the time in GTS.
I'm gonna try driving some more, but GTS feels like I know everything I'm doing, like steering a hotwheels on a table. But ACC feels like being a passenger and being driven along by G-forces.

That's an interesting take on ACC. Personally I never felt anything more intuitive than pushing a car in AC/ACC, and this is coming from someone who have played GT since GT1. I remember the first time I drove AC at a friend's house, I chose the LaFerrari at Mugello (a very intimidating combo for a first timer), and even using a cheap wheel (Logitech G25, stock pedals) I can immediately feel the connection to the road and fantastic FFB. It just immediately feels "at home" and I bought AC immediately when I got home :lol:

Driving in GT can feel "comfortable" because even with all aids off, there is still a bit of hand holding with the physics. The ABS for example also has in-built stability system, and the suspensions are deliberately overdamped so it's very hard to unsettle a car with severe weight shifts (unless you really try to mess up). This also makes FF cars impossible to lift off oversteer, as Scaff said. On the other hand, cars like the 458 and R8 LMS Gr.3 just has severe oversteer issues for no reason at all, when the real cars are as planted as can be. It's just weird and very inconsistent across the board. You said it yourself perfectly, driving in GT feels like a toy.

I don't know what your current skill level is, but best advice I can give, is to forget all driving techniques you learn in GT and treat AC/ACC as a completely new game. Also don't be afraid to ask around in the ACC forum for FFB settings, they can make a big difference. It's very hard to mess up wheel settings in GT because the adjustment range is so narrow, but in ACC it's very easy to do that if you don't know what you're doing.

I don't wanna turn this into an ACC forum, but here's some quick tips from Aris (the actual physics guru for ACC) about setting up FFB. Lots of tips in his channel as well, track guides, car setups, etc. Well worth watching.
 
Last edited:
471
United States
Maryland, USA
That's an interesting take on ACC. Personally I never felt anything more intuitive than pushing a car in AC/ACC, and this is coming from someone who have played GT since GT1. I remember the first time I drove AC at a friend's house, I choose the LaFerrari at Mugello (a very intimidating combo for a first timer), and even using a cheap wheel (Logitech G25, stock pedals) I can immediately feel the connection to the road and fantastic FFB. It just immediately feels "at home" and I bought AC immediately when I got home :lol:

Driving in GT can feel "comfortable" because even with all aids off, there is still a bit of hand holding with the physics. The ABS for example also has in-built stability system, and the suspensions are deliberately overdamped so it's very hard to unsettle a car with severe weight shifts (unless you really try to mess up). This also makes FF cars impossible to lift off oversteer, as Scaff said. On the other hand, cars like the 458 and R8 LMS Gr.3 just has severe oversteer issues for no reason at all, when the real cars are as planted as can be. It's just weird and very inconsistent across the board. You said it yourself perfectly, driving in GT feels like a toy.

I don't know what your current skill level is, but best advice I can give, is to forget all driving techniques you learn in GT and treat AC/ACC as a completely new game. Also don't be afraid to ask around in the ACC forum for FFB settings, they can make a big difference. It's very hard to mess up wheel settings in GT because the adjustment range is so narrow, but in ACC it's very easy to do that if you don't know what you're doing.

I don't wanna turn this into an ACC forum, but here's some quick tips from Aris (the actual physics guru for ACC) about setting up FFB:


/OT I can attest to that. The original AC is the most fun I've ever had in a driving game, from a pure driving experience prospective. Just uploaded this video the other day. I could just drive around all day, and keep having fun after every lap. Never gets old.
 
I'm currently testing each parameter and their effects of the suspension and tyres in GT Sport for a hybrid/modding guide... if I ever complete it :lol:

So it will be interesting to see if the game can be tweaked towards the feel of the big boys on the PC.

For those interested these are the parameters that make up the suspension and tyres:

rideheightMINF
rideheightMAXF
rideheightDFF
rideheightMINR
rideheightMAXR
rideheightDFR
targetFrequencyFMin
targetFrequencyFMax
targetFrequencyFDF
targetFrequencyRMin
targetFrequencyRMax
targetFrequencyRDF
camberMINF
camberMAXF
camberDFF
camberMINR
camberMAXR
camberDFR
strokecamberF
strokecamberR
cmbgripFx1
cmbgripFx2
cmbgripFx3
cmbgripFx4
cmbgripFy1
cmbgripFy2
cmbgripFy3
cmbgripFy4
cmbgripRx1
cmbgripRx2
cmbgripRx3
cmbgripRx4
cmbgripRy1
cmbgripRy2
cmbgripRy3
cmbgripRy4
toeMINF
toeMAXF
toeDFF
toeMINR
toeMAXR
toeDFR
brmarginF
brmarginR
brtouchF
brtouchR
limrF
limrR
springratevol
springrateMINF
springrateMAXF
springrateDFF
springrateMINR
springrateMAXR
springrateDFR
leverratioDFF
leverratioDFR
bumprubberF
bumprubberR
bumprubberDMF
bumprubberDMR
dampV1BF
dampV1BR
dampV2BF
dampV2BR
dampV1RF
dampV1RR
dampV2RF
dampV2RR
damplevelBF
dampF1BMINF
dampF1BMAXF
dampF1BDFF
dampF2BMINF
dampF2BMAXF
dampF2BDFF
damplevelRF
dampF1RMINF
dampF1RMAXF
dampF1RDFF
dampF2RMINF
dampF2RMAXF
dampF2RDFF
damplevelBR
dampF1BMINR
dampF1BMAXR
dampF1BDFR
dampF2BMINR
dampF2BMAXR
dampF2BDFR
damplevelRR
dampF1RMINR
dampF1RMAXR
dampF1RDFR
dampF2RMINR
dampF2RMAXR
dampF2RDFR
unsprungmassF
unsprungmassR
stabilizerFlevel
stabilizerMINF
stabilizerMAXF
stabilizerDFF
stabilizerRlevel
stabilizerMINR
stabilizerMAXR
stabilizerDFR
ActiveSuspensionType
springratelevelF
springratelevelR
rideheightlevelF
rideheightlevelR
AutoDampingForce
DampingRatioFBLevel
DampingRatioFBDF
DampingRatioFBMin
DampingRatioFBMax
DampingRatioFRLevel
DampingRatioFRDF
DampingRatioFRMin
DampingRatioFRMax
DampingRatioRBLevel
DampingRatioRBDF
DampingRatioRBMin
DampingRatioRBMax
DampingRatioRRLevel
DampingRatioRRDF
DampingRatioRRMin
DampingRatioRRMax
caster
targetFrequencyFLv
targetFrequencyRLv
tireSpring_AutoF
tireSpring_AutoR




tirewear
Mu
weightgripx1
weightgripx2
weightgripx3
weightgripx4
weightgripy1
weightgripy2
weightgripy3
weightgripy4

sideforceprecision
sideforce_pointmax
sideforcex1
sideforcex2
sideforcex3
sideforcex4
sideforcex5
sideforcex6
sideforcex7
sideforcex8
sideforcex9
sideforcex10
sideforcex11
sideforcex12
sideforcey1
sideforcey2
sideforcey3
sideforcey4
sideforcey5
sideforcey6
sideforcey7
sideforcey8
sideforcey9
sideforcey10
sideforcey11
sideforcey12

corneringdrag_pointmax
corneringdragx1
corneringdragx2
corneringdragx3
corneringdragx4
corneringdragx5
corneringdragx6
corneringdragx7
corneringdragx8
corneringdragx9
corneringdragx10
corneringdragx11
corneringdragx12
corneringdragy1
corneringdragy2
corneringdragy3
corneringdragy4
corneringdragy5
corneringdragy6
corneringdragy7
corneringdragy8
corneringdragy9
corneringdragy10
corneringdragy11
corneringdragy12

slipmuA_pointmax
slipmuAx1
slipmuAx2
slipmuAx3
slipmuAx4
slipmuAx5
slipmuAx6
slipmuAx7
slipmuAx8
slipmuAx9
slipmuAx10
slipmuAx11
slipmuAx12
slipmuAy1
slipmuAy2
slipmuAy3
slipmuAy4
slipmuAy5
slipmuAy6
slipmuAy7
slipmuAy8
slipmuAy9
slipmuAy10
slipmuAy11
slipmuAy12
sidemuAx1
sidemuAx2
sidemuAx3
sidemuAx4
sidemuAx5
sidemuAx6
sidemuAy1
sidemuAy2
sidemuAy3
sidemuAy4
sidemuAy5
sidemuAy6

slipmuB_pointmax
slipmuBx1
slipmuBx2
slipmuBx3
slipmuBx4
slipmuBx5
slipmuBx6
slipmuBx7
slipmuBx8
slipmuBx9
slipmuBx10
slipmuBx11
slipmuBx12
slipmuBy1
slipmuBy2
slipmuBy3
slipmuBy4
slipmuBy5
slipmuBy6
slipmuBy7
slipmuBy8
slipmuBy9
slipmuBy10
slipmuBy11
slipmuBy12
sidemuBx1
sidemuBx2
sidemuBx3
sidemuBx4
sidemuBx5
sidemuBx6
sidemuBy1
sidemuBy2
sidemuBy3
sidemuBy4
sidemuBy5
sidemuBy6

lslide
cslide
sideforce
sildedir

sslideA_pointmax
sslideAx1
sslideAx2
sslideAx3
sslideAx4
sslideAx5
sslideAx6
sslideAx7
sslideAx8
sslideAx9
sslideAx10
sslideAx11
sslideAx12
sslideAy1
sslideAy2
sslideAy3
sslideAy4
sslideAy5
sslideAy6
sslideAy7
sslideAy8
sslideAy9
sslideAy10
sslideAy11
sslideAy12
sslideBx1
sslideBx2
sslideBx3
sslideBx4
sslideBx5
sslideBx6
sslideBx7
sslideBx8
sslideBy1
sslideBy2
sslideBy3
sslideBy4
sslideBy5
sslideBy6
sslideBy7
sslideBy8

FrictionOvalSide
FrictionOvalDir
forcevolTA
forcevolGU
forcevolGR
forcevolSA
forcevolGV
forcevolDT
forcevolWT
forcevolSF
forcevolWD
forcevolHT
forcevolWR
forcevolWH
forcevolWG
forcevolG1
forcevolG2
forcevolG3
forcevolPB
forcevolBE
forcevolDIRT_L
forcevolSNOW
forcevolSLIPPERY
forcevolCONCRETE
forcevolDIRT_M
forcevolTARMAC_H
forcevolGUIDE_RUNOFF
forcevolTARMAC_L


Bead
TireWidthOffset
Side
Tread
Shoulder
Round
SideCrease
Fullness
FullnessHeight
UVBead
UVSide
UVShoulder
UOffsetOutside
UOffsetInside
^ All these are both internal and external.