Man & the World

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Will man eventually destroy the world (or make it uninhabitable)?


Obviously, there are two factors that will strongly influence your answer: Your adapted philosophy, and, if applicable, religious beliefs. This is meant to be a discussion, of course. Enjoy. :)
 
Define destruction. And if you believe this could or will happen, can you give me strong evidence that it will happen before our sun kills us? Oh, and if you say define strong, than :p
 
Of course I may not be satisfied with you definition of destruction.

Uninhabitable by humans?
 
Who cares?

I don't understand why we're so conservative in protecting animals. Aren't we animals, too?
 
My adapted philosophy is conservative, i.e. not blatantly liberal, in other words, not insane. Charming, aint I?

To be honest, no I do not think we will destroy the planet.
 
The fact is, we (as humans) will never be able to destroy the earth. Something will ultimately survive. If you think otherwise, how conceted are you to think that we have that much impact?

Scientists quote the times to regenerate the ozone and such, but when you look at the time compaired to the overall time the earth has been around, it really is insignificant isn't it? If we kill ourselves off, oh well, something will ultimately survive.
 
The reason is mostly about the scientific uncertainty over our effect over the environment, not to mention that social politics are likely to force a more moderate aproach by Republican administrations, though the big business is evil of the left does not go over well with some moderate Democrats, so the leaning toward being less of the enemy of corporations may offset some of the theoretical advantage of the Republicans moving toward a more balanced approach. Of course, this all assumes some of the science is completely accurate and indisputable. I think that overall, especially to help avoid the evil label, more that were not big on the environment will develop a pro stance. I also think the Sierra Club and the other environmentalist groups would be smart in focusing on debating the science of where best to clear trees, instead of the current focus on the logging industry. Even if one removes the factor of the jobs it would create, this idea of leaving some of the deeper areas of the forrest to burn off has the problem of just when and where it would finish. Animal rescue operations, evacuations of people, trucking fire personnel to monitor blazes. This will mostly come at taxpayer expense. The enviros may be right, but I am not so sure they will win this one unless the house and senate defeat Bush's proposal.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
Who cares?

I don't understand why we're so conservative in protecting animals. Aren't we animals, too?

I'll give you a a reason.

We're the only animals capable of destroying all the other animals (as well as ourselves).

Each extinction of a species represents a degredation in the overall gene pool - this therefore represents a degredation of the overall food chain (or reduction in bio-diversity). If we continue to degrade the food chain, we put ourselves at risk, as we're as reliant on the food chain as every other animal.

A good example is over-fishing of world fish stocks.
 
Ditto vat_man's comment.

Talentless- Actually, I probably shouldn't have used the word destruction... the idea I had in mind was "exhausting of all resources."
 
The problem with trying to manage and regulate sources of food is that in order to do it effectively one needs to have reliable estimates and predictions of weather seasons and populations. Wars can throw that out of balance, as can social changes, and so on. But, "under"- fishing should leave a larger reserve. But if fishing restrictions should have to increase by a bit at a time, than numbers claiming x # of fish by 2025 may be wrong, likely will be.
 
Oh, and one needs to know the availability of other food sources as well. Of course it should be noted that some of our good aspects can come back to haunt us. Over population is a disputed theory, often advertised as a cure is a limit on births, especially, I beieve, in third world nations, yet if the lessening of human kind makes more resources available, than is there not something a bit strange in trying to expand the human life span? Morally, no. So we will continue to increase the period each of the older, perhap less enlightened generations, live. We compund ourselves, it seems.
 
Either I put up a really good point or am being shunned for stupidity, or something. Respond already.
 
Originally posted by vat_man


I'll give you a a reason.

We're the only animals capable of destroying all the other animals (as well as ourselves).

Each extinction of a species represents a degredation in the overall gene pool - this therefore represents a degredation of the overall food chain (or reduction in bio-diversity). If we continue to degrade the food chain, we put ourselves at risk, as we're as reliant on the food chain as every other animal.

A good example is over-fishing of world fish stocks.

I think bears could destroy all other animals plus themselves. There'd just need to be more.

All the humans are doing is fighting for survival, just like all other species of all other types. Why don't the bears conserve fish? The humans do! Why can't the bears be expected to?
 
Originally posted by vat_man


I'll give you a a reason.

We're the only animals capable of destroying all the other animals (as well as ourselves).

Each extinction of a species represents a degredation in the overall gene pool - this therefore represents a degredation of the overall food chain (or reduction in bio-diversity). If we continue to degrade the food chain, we put ourselves at risk, as we're as reliant on the food chain as every other animal.

A good example is over-fishing of world fish stocks.
:thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by M5Power


I think bears could destroy all other animals plus themselves. There'd just need to be more.

All the humans are doing is fighting for survival, just like all other species of all other types. Why don't the bears conserve fish? The humans do! Why can't the bears be expected to?
I'm about 95% sure you posted that as a joke just to get a rise out of me, but here goes anyway....

There aren't 8 billion bears, and they don't threaten deep sea fishing stocks - they only affect animals in their specific area that they ear. They don't affect the entire world, across virtually all species (including those they don't eat).

If the stocks of food that bears eat runs low, then bears starve until the numbers of fish replenish - that's how natural balance works.

Bears also don't threaten the globe with pollution or nuclear weapons.
 
Originally posted by vat_man

I'm about 95% sure you posted that as a joke just to get a rise out of me, but here goes anyway....

There aren't 8 billion bears, and they don't threaten deep sea fishing stocks - they only affect animals in their specific area that they ear. They don't affect the entire world, across virtually all species (including those they don't eat).

If the stocks of food that bears eat runs low, then bears starve until the numbers of fish replenish - that's how natural balance works.

Bears also don't threaten the globe with pollution or nuclear weapons.

It kind of was made to get a rise out of you, but you brought up an interesting point. Bears haven't evolved to the degree humans have. Personally though, I don't understand why humans need to be punished for evolving further by taking care of the other species of Earth. Why can't we live our own lives and expect the other species to do the same? Perhaps they'll adapt to the conditions and things'll get really juicy. :D
 
Originally posted by vat_man

I'm about 95% sure you posted that as a joke just to get a rise out of me, but here goes anyway....

There aren't 8 billion bears, and they don't threaten deep sea fishing stocks - they only affect animals in their specific area that they ear. They don't affect the entire world, across virtually all species (including those they don't eat).

If the stocks of food that bears eat runs low, then bears starve until the numbers of fish replenish - that's how natural balance works.

Bears also don't threaten the globe with pollution or nuclear weapons.
:thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by M5Power


It kind of was made to get a rise out of you, but you brought up an interesting point. Bears haven't evolved to the degree humans have. Personally though, I don't understand why humans need to be punished for evolving further by taking care of the other species of Earth. Why can't we live our own lives and expect the other species to do the same? Perhaps they'll adapt to the conditions and things'll get really juicy. :D

Well, the point is that we're punishing ourselves by not dealing with this stuff - the whole issue of conservation of environment and species diversification is not just about preservation, but about ensuring that we continue as well - we're dependant on the planet as well - without plant diversification, you wouldn't have the range of drugs and antibiotics available to keep people alive - without animal diversification, food chains start to collapse, and we're not independant of those either.

I'm laso not sure what you meant by live our own lives - unfortunately, everything we do impacts on them and us.

This is the source of one of my major gripes with the free-market system (this from a creaky old economist), and the complete failure of western governments to deal with it, is the concept of a dollar now being worth more than a dollar in the future (and you just need to look at the Enron collapse to see how that works sometimes!), which whilst fine from financial calculation point of view, does tend to shortchange the people following after you (i.e. kids).
 
Originally posted by vat_man


Well, the point is that we're punishing ourselves by not dealing with this stuff - the whole issue of conservation of environment and species diversification is not just about preservation, but about ensuring that we continue as well - we're dependant on the planet as well - without plant diversification, you wouldn't have the range of drugs and antibiotics available to keep people alive - without animal diversification, food chains start to collapse, and we're not independant of those either.

I'm laso not sure what you meant by live our own lives - unfortunately, everything we do impacts on them and us.

This is the source of one of my major gripes with the free-market system (this from a creaky old economist), and the complete failure of western governments to deal with it, is the concept of a dollar now being worth more than a dollar in the future (and you just need to look at the Enron collapse to see how that works sometimes!), which whilst fine from financial calculation point of view, does tend to shortchange the people following after you (i.e. kids).

Why are the humans stuck with all the conserving just because we evolved more quickly or better? It is a one-track mindset, but it's an interesting question. I think all species should play a part, or fall behind.

And if they can't live with it, they adapt. And if they don't adapt... :rip:
 
Originally posted by M5Power
Why are the humans stuck with all the conserving just because we evolved more quickly or better? It is a one-track mindset, but it's an interesting question. I think all species should play a part, or fall behind.

And if they can't live with it, they adapt. And if they don't adapt... :rip:
The point is is that if we don't conserve, then we [humans]... :rip: To put it into extreme terms-- Since no animal, plant, or other living species have evolved to the point of humans, then they should all go... and if they all go, what do we eat?
 
"The Earth is entirely too fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in." -Robert Heinlein

I don't really have time to get too deeply into this, but this issue is the main reason that I think getting the human race off this planet and out into space - the asteroids, Mars, other solar systems - should be the number one priority of the industrialized world.

Part of the problem lies with wasting of resources, but not all of it. Neither the eco-weenies nor the thoughtless industrialists (NOT capitalists - China and the former Soviet Union are the two worst offenders) have the answer.

Much of the environmental hysteria is based on incorrect, or at best, selective science. For instance, the number of species that have gone extinct in the recorded history of mankind is about 0.0000001% of all the species that have gone extinct in the history of life. In other words, it's pretty much proportional to the amount of time recorded history represents geologically. The worst ecological transgressions of mankind are not a candle in the wind compared to the dozens or hundreds of mass die-offs that have occured before mankind even existed.

Out of the top 20 most vocal 'scientists' who are convinced that global warming will destroy the earth in the near future, about 16 were crying the same thing about a coming Ice Age twenty years ago.

Within the short 200 years of our industrial history, we have started using natural resources heavily, identified ways it is possible to overuse them, and already begun to solve the problems of overuse with ever-more-efficient production and consumption. Technology advances geometrically. Look at what is possible with the efficiency of current technology compared to that of even 50 years ago. Now think 50 years into the future - 50 years when the rate of technological advance is equivalent to at least 150 years at the old rate. Will the Earth be different? Of course. Will it be destroyed, unfit for human life? Certainly not.

Eco-hysteria is just as counterproductive as ruthless exploitation. Instead of allowing selective forestation to be spread over all the available area, reducing the maximum amount of stress placed on any given ecosystem, ecological insistence on closing vast portions of the available forest mean that other areas are totally devastated instead. Being more even-handed would allow the same amount of timber to be cut, but distibuted over a much wider area, meaning much less impact on any given location. For another example, the same people who scream about our dependence on fossil fuels are those who scream against nuclear power. Instead of allowing nuclear energy to support us while alternative generation methods are developed and made efficient, weaning us from oil dependency, they insist that the problem be solved immediately, somehow, without offering a viable solution. It's great to feel self-righteous, I guess, but where does that get us? Think 50 years in the future, not 500 years in the past.

And to add a philosophical angle to this question - what sense, what value, what point does the Earth serve, if not as a setting for mankind?
 

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