Manual Disadvantage

Crazed_Coupe

Crazed_Coupe

1,526
Crazed_Coupe
I recently just "upgraded" to a G27 from the the DFGT and I do like this wheel in general a lot more but one of the best features IMO is the six speed stick shift on the G27, I think it adds tons of realism to the game and it also functions just the way it would in real life which is a huge plus for me.

My question is, do you stick shift wheel owners think that we're at a disadvantage when it comes to drag racing or just racing in general considering we have to let off the gas in order to go through the necessary process of shifting between gears?

I ask this question because I was recently drag racing people on SSR7 in the same car completely stock and it seemed as if every time I let off the accelerator to engage the clutch and shift to the next gear the other car would pull on me just a slight bit and eventually after letting off the accelerator six times to get through six gears, he pulled in front of me and won.

I personally think that we're at a slight disadvantage but I want to hear what you guys think about it!
 
I thought it had been documented that those of us with H pattern shifters could shift slightly faster than the emulated shifting from the game.

Or rather, I think it has been documented.
 
PawnBoy
I thought it had been documented that those of us with H pattern shifters could shift slightly faster than the emulated shifting from the game.
Click to expand...

How do you figure that if those with non H pattern shifter wheels or DS3 users don't have to let off the gas at all in order to switch gears?
 
PawnBoy
I thought it had been documented that those of us with H pattern shifters could shift slightly faster than the emulated shifting from the game.

Or rather, I think it has been documented.
Click to expand...

Completely the opposite.

Yes, there is a disadvantage and it's intentional. And I hate it. I believe after the old G25 hacks which made it possible to modify your G25 hardware to shift without lifting that PD purposely crippled manual shifting to take away any POSSIBLE advantage during time trials (which we still don't have).

On shorter tracks like the Autumn ring, you may loose a few tenths. On a full lap of the Nurburgring, all else being equal, shifting with the h-pattern as opposed to the paddle shifters will lose you 3~4 full seconds.

Just do a few tests in practice and watch how your own ghost car pulls away from you when driven with the paddle shifts. It's a massive disadvantage. If I want to race against my friends (competitively) I'm forced to use the paddles.
 
Shifting from 1st gear to 2nd gear adds a "software added" clutch slip that you either shift early and miss shift and get stuck in 1st gear, shift late and lose time, or nail it, and nailing it means only matching the time of the paddle shifter.

On GT5P there wasn't such "added" clutch slip, so you could shift seamlessly faster than using other methods. But my guess is that they added that thing so the Thustmaster T500 wasn't at a disadvantage against H gated shifting featuring wheels.

So at best, you are only equal to the sequential shifter.
 
Crazed_Coupe
How do you figure that if those with non H pattern shifter wheels or DS3 users don't have to let off the gas at all in order to switch gears?
Click to expand...

GT5 emulates the driver taking half a second or so to shift which the user presses the shift-up or shift-down button. Also I think there was a thread just couple days ago discussing whether you could or could not shift without releasing the accelerator, and I thought the conclusion was that you could... I'll try to find it.
 
jjaisli
Completely the opposite.

Yes, there is a disadvantage and it's intentional. And I hate it. I believe after the old G25 hacks which made it possible to modify your G25 hardware to shift without lifting that PD purposely crippled manual shifting to take away any POSSIBLE advantage during time trials (which we still don't have).

On shorter tracks like the Autumn ring, you may loose a few tenths. On a full lap of the Nurburgring, all else being equal, shifting with the h-pattern as opposed to the paddle shifters will lose you 3~4 full seconds.

Just do a few tests in practice and watch how your own ghost car pulls away from you when driven with the paddle shifts. It's a massive disadvantage. If I want to race against my friends (competitively) I'm forced to use the paddles.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was thinking but why would people want to mod their G25 in order to not let off the accelerator to switch gears? If you don't want a realistic experience then you shouldn't of got a realistic wheel! 👎
 
PawnBoy
GT5 emulates the driver taking half a second or so to shift which the user presses the shift-up or shift-down button. Also I think there was a thread just couple days ago discussing whether you could or could not shift without releasing the accelerator, and I thought the conclusion was that you could... I'll try to find it.
Click to expand...

You definitely do have to let off the gas in order to switch gears or you'll be shot into neutral.

Edit: Sorry for double posting.
 
Last edited:
In Game - Manual shifting with a 'stick' does put you at a disadvantage when it comes to drag racing. In a circuit race it may be better than full auto but neither can compete with manual shifters using the paddle.
IRL - Auto versions of a car are normally quicker in a straight line than their manual counterparts.
Personally i like corners so its 'stick shift' all the way :)

Disclaimer for know it alls- this is all IMHO, thanks.
 
berty1979
In Game - Manual shifting with a 'stick' does put you at a disadvantage when it comes to drag racing. In a circuit race it may be better than full auto but neither can compete with manual shifters using the paddle.
IRL - Auto versions of a car are normally quicker in a straight line than their manual counterparts.
Personally i like corners so its 'stick shift' all the way :)

Disclaimer for know it alls- this is all IMHO, thanks.
Click to expand...

Defiantly not true man.
 
PawnBoy
Hrm, well you certainly don't have to let off the throttle all the way. I think I found the thread I was talking about: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=214690

Either way, as the clutch is released you should be able to go to full throttle again.
Click to expand...

Oh well i'm not sure how much pressure you have to let off the accelerator but I know you have to, I haven't had my G27 long enough to figure that out.

Yes, once the clutch is released you can go full throttle once again.
 
Crazed_Coupe
That's exactly what I was thinking but why would people want to mod their G25 in order to not let off the accelerator to switch gears? If you don't want a realistic experience then you shouldn't of got a realistic wheel! 👎
Click to expand...

I have no idea. I didn't play Prologue very much but apparently there was a lot of this going on back in the day. Some people are just ultra competitive and they'll do anything to get their name in lights (read: onto the leaderboards). It was the same with wall riding or straight lining chicanes. They did anything they could to shave a few tenths.

From time to time, I'll play with the h-pattern simply because it's a more enjoyable, organic experience. And it's a bit more difficult to downshift with the h-patter. When you use the paddles, the game matches revs on the downshifts. If you don't heel-toe under braking with the h-pattern shifter, you can upset the balance of your car in some cases.

But either way, the fact remains, even under the very best of circumstances, nobody can't shift gears fast enough manually with a G25/G27 to keep up with paddle shifting. The best you can hope for is to be 'close'.
 
Except that while using the paddle shifters on your G27 while driving a car in GT5 that has an H pattern shifter the game will emulate the delay of the H-pattern shift. If you're driving a car in GT5 that has a proper sequential transmission, then yes, using the shifter on the G27 will put you at a disadvantage.
 
On fanatec wheels you haveto let off completely. If your on the fas again before fully of the clutch then neutral it is.

Although with any clutch equipped wheel if you do not step on the clutch at the start of the race then you can power shift without ever using it.
If you press it just once then it is activated and you will have to use it.
To deactivate it shift 2 times with the paddles and you can go back to clutchless shifting.
 
dark_ruffo
Shifting from 1st gear to 2nd gear adds a "software added" clutch slip that you either shift early and miss shift and get stuck in 1st gear, shift late and lose time, or nail it, and nailing it means only matching the time of the paddle shifter.

On GT5P there wasn't such "added" clutch slip, so you could shift seamlessly faster than using other methods. But my guess is that they added that thing so the Thustmaster T500 wasn't at a disadvantage against H gated shifting featuring wheels.

So at best, you are only equal to the sequential shifter.
Click to expand...

Even if you do have a "perfect" shift, it still won't match the speed of the paddle shifters because once again you have to let off the accelerator for a split second which may not make a huge noticeable difference but it does.

jjaisli
I have no idea. I didn't play Prologue very much but apparently there was a lot of this going on back in the day. Some people are just ultra competitive and they'll do anything to get their name in lights (read: onto the leaderboards). It was the same with wall riding or straight lining chicanes. They did anything they could to shave a few tenths.

From time to time, I'll play with the h-pattern simply because it's a more enjoyable, organic experience. And it's a bit more difficult to downshift with the h-patter. When you use the paddles, the game matches revs on the downshifts. If you don't heel-toe under braking with the h-pattern shifter, you can upset the balance of your car in some cases.

But either way, the fact remains, even under the very best of circumstances, nobody can't shift gears fast enough manually with a G25/G27 to keep up with paddle shifting. The best you can hope for is to be 'close'.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I have never used automatic on the G27, nor have I ever used the great paddle shifters. I love the realistic feel of the H pattern and even though it's a tad bit slower I will still continue to use it without a doubt. 👍
 
PawnBoy
Except that while using the paddle shifters on your G27 while driving a car in GT5 that has an H pattern shifter the game will emulate the delay of the H-pattern shift. If you're driving a car in GT5 that has a proper sequential transmission, then yes, using the shifter on the G27 will put you at a disadvantage.
Click to expand...


It doesn't matter WHAT car you're driving. Trust me, I've tested this extensively.

Do this. Take ANY car you want. Go into practice mode and select any track with a long straight. Drive at idle in 1st gear and then accelerate hard through the gears using the paddles until you reach top gear. (In fairness, make sure you're not getting wheel spin or something that could affect the outcome)

Now restart and do it again using the h-pattern. No matter how fast, no matter what car, your ghost car will always be slightly ahead of you by the time your reach top gear.

IMO, PD went out of their way to cripple h-patter shifting. What their reasoning was, I can't say for sure, but I suspect it had something to do with leaderboards, considering all the controversy over the G25 glitch and the fact that h-pattern shifting was disabled in the 2009 GT Academy test.
 
Let me put it this way:
If you're driving the McLaren MP4-C12 and using the H-shifter, you're going to be at a disadvantage because the car actually has a sequential transmission.
If you're driving the McLaren F1, and decide to use the paddle shifters on the wheel, when you press shift-up, your ingame driver automatically depresses the clutch, moves the shifter, matches the RPMs, and releases the clutch. He does this decently quickly and very reliably but, depending on your skill level, you can do it faster manually.
 
jjaisli
It doesn't matter WHAT car you're driving. I've tested this extensively.

Do this. Take ANY car you want. Go into practice mode and select any track with a long straight. Drive at idle in 1st gear and then accelerate hard through the gears using the paddles until you reach top gear. (In fairness, make sure you're not getting wheel spin or something that could affect the outcome)

Now restart and do it again using the h-pattern. No matter how fast, no matter what car, your ghost car will always be slightly ahead of you by the time your reach top gear.

IMO, PD went out of their way to cripple h-patter shifting. What their reasoning was, I can't say for sure, but I suspect it had something to do with leaderboards, considering all the controversy over the G25 glitch and the fact that h-pattern shifting was disabled in the 2009 GT Academy test.
Click to expand...

I think that PD should of at least made DS3 or non H pattern wheel users let off the gas before switching gears to make things a bit more closer. I also think that they should of focused on crippling the automatic transmission setting not the realistic H pattern shifting which was already slower to begin with.

People online use automatic transmission way to much IMO and I feel as if they think manual sucks and automatic is better which in real life that's most of the time not the case but it is what it is.
 
jjaisli
It doesn't matter WHAT car you're driving. Trust me, I've tested this extensively.

Do this. Take ANY car you want. Go into practice mode and select any track with a long straight. Drive at idle in 1st gear and then accelerate hard through the gears using the paddles until you reach top gear. (In fairness, make sure you're not getting wheel spin or something that could affect the outcome)

Now restart and do it again using the h-pattern. No matter how fast, no matter what car, your ghost car will always be slightly ahead of you by the time your reach top gear.

IMO, PD went out of their way to cripple h-patter shifting. What their reasoning was, I can't say for sure, but I suspect it had something to do with leaderboards, considering all the controversy over the G25 glitch and the fact that h-pattern shifting was disabled in the 2009 GT Academy test.
Click to expand...

Sorry, was writing my post at the same time as you, I will test when I get home later.
 
PawnBoy
Sorry, was writing my post at the same time as you, I will test when I get home later.
Click to expand...

Better yet, use a track like the HSR and just be on the gas as soon as it starts so that you can make an exact comparison.
 
PawnBoy
Let me put it this way:
If you're driving the McLaren MP4-C12 and using the H-shifter, you're going to be at a disadvantage because the car actually has a sequential transmission.
If you're driving the McLaren F1, and decide to use the paddle shifters on the wheel, when you press shift-up, your ingame driver automatically depresses the clutch, moves the shifter, matches the RPMs, and releases the clutch. He does this decently quickly and very reliably but, depending on your skill level, you can do it faster manually.
Click to expand...

To be honest it only makes sense that shifting with the paddle shifters will always be faster than shifting with the H pattern considering you have to let off the gas just the slightest bit, which in turn will increase the time it takes to switch gears, while using the paddle shifters you don't have to let off the accelerator at all. Although it may not seem like much at the end of the day you will see a slight difference in your lap times between the two.
 
berty1979
Auto's can change faster than a human. Unless its a cheap automatic.
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean anything at all. While driving a stick you can choose at what certain RPM you want to change gears when which is extremely helpful in drag racing, for instance automatic usually changes gears as soon as they hit red line if not a little before but with a manual transmission you can shift far into the red line without revving the engine which is extremely helpful. There is a deep theory as to why a manual transmission is better than an automatic but you can't tell me that an experienced drag racer would rather use an automatic transmission than a manual... :ouch:

Edit: I'm talking about in real life, drag racing in GT5 is a complete joke.
 
Last edited:
berty1979
Auto's can change faster than a human. Unless its a cheap automatic.
Click to expand...

Crazed_Coupe
That doesn't mean anything at all. While driving a stick you can choose at what certain RPM you want to change gears when which is extremely helpful in drag racing, for instance automatic usually changes gears as soon as they hit red line if not a little before but with a manual transmission you can shift far into the red line without revving the engine which is extremely helpful. There is a deep theory as to why a manual transmission is better than an automatic but you can't tell me that an experienced drag racer would rather use an automatic transmission than a manual... :ouch:
Click to expand...

There's a difference between an old fashioned, traditional, automatic transmission with a power robbing torque converter or fluid coupling, and an advanced, modern DCT operating in automatic mode. A modern dual clutch transmission is essentially a manual transmission with an 'automatic' clutch. And it can shift gears automatically. In most cases, a DCT can shift quicker than a human and is essentially faster. An old fashioned automatic, spinning fluid around inside the case, is NOT faster.
 
jjaisli
There's a difference between an old fashioned, traditional, automatic transmission with a power robbing torque converter or fluid coupling, and an advanced, modern DCT operating in automatic mode. A modern dual clutch transmission is essentially a manual transmission with an 'automatic' clutch. And it can shift gears automatically. In most cases, a DCT can shift quicker than a human and is essentially faster. An old fashioned automatic, spinning fluid around inside the case, is NOT faster.
Click to expand...

Well we could all get very deep into this theory but I know that an experienced drag racer in real life would much rather a 2010 Mustang V8 with a manual transmission rather than an automatic without a doubt.

Do they even make automatic V8's? :lol:
 

Latest Posts

Back