Manual Disadvantage

Crazed_Coupe
Well we could all get very deep into this theory but I know that an experienced drag racer in real life would much rather a 2010 Mustang V8 with a manual transmission rather than an automatic without a doubt.

Do they even make automatic V8's? :lol:
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Was this a real question? There have been thousands of Automatic V8 models made over the years.
 
In the 23 years I've been driving, I've only owned cars with manual transmissions and I prefer having a clutch pedal under my left foot. I don't see that changing any time soon. But the fact of the matter is, if you look at cars like the VW GTI with the DSG transmission, they accelerate quicker than just about any human (from earth) can manage with the manual. Same with the Ferrari F430 or F599 or BMW M3 and many others. The biggest advantage you have is off the line where you can control clutch slip and wheel spin. But cars with sophisticated launch control systems are quicker yet. It's not 1982 anymore. The computers won. ;)
 
I just look at the fastest racing cars on the planet, semi auto paddle/button shift.
That answers your question when discussing cars in a high performance sense.
This thread has been an interesting read.
 
To simplify the manual vs auto IRL debate:

DSG, flappy paddles, dual clutch, sequential gearbox, etc is faster than H patter manual shifter, and are NOT considered automatic transmissions. Although they do have AUTO modes if you get lazy.

Automatic transmission in a 2003 350z (example) will be slower than a manual H pattern shifter in the same car around a circuit and in a straight line. The standard AUTO in most cars is designed for comfort and ease of use, not for sport. Unlike Ferrari's F1 paddles, BMW / VW / Audis DSG, etc.
 
But we're not talking about whether or not semi auto cars are faster than h-pattern cars are we? Aren't we discussing whether or not when driving a car in gt5 (that has an h-pattern shifter) using your own h-pattern shifter puts you at a disadvantage.

I agree that semi-auto transmission are faster than h-pattern transmissions. But I just did the test jjaisli suggested and using the h-pattern shifter and clutch I was able to pull ahead by a few inches before I ran out of straight on that the short suzuka track (gears 1 through 5).

I used a Lotus Elise 111r that had been tuned for the Tsukuba Expert Event on the shortest suzuka track. Before starting my control lap I came to a stop at the last grid spot on the left before the start/finish line. I then used the paddle shifters on my G27 to accelerate down the straight, shifting as close to 10,000 rpm as I could each time. I then completed the lap and then exited and re-entered so I'd have that lap as a ghost. I then did the same thing as before, stopped at last grid on left before start/finish. Accelerated down the straight with the H-Pattern shifter on my G27. Now I'll admit, I wasn't fast enough at shifting the first 3 times I tried, and if you screw up once, you lose a lot of distance very quickly. But on my fourth try I was able to pull ahead by about a foot before I ran out of track.

So...in conclusion, if you're really fast with the H-shifter, I think you can exceed the shifting speed of shifting with a button. But I'd probably say you're still at a disadvantage, the computer never screws up, and I do all the time...

Remember, I'm not saying that in real life an H-pattern transmission is faster than a semi-auto transmission. I'm saying that when you're driving a car in GT5 that has an H-pattern shifter, using your own H-pattern shifter can be faster than using a button to tell GT5 to shift it for you.
 
PawnBoy
But we're not talking about whether or not semi auto cars are faster than h-pattern cars are we? Aren't we discussing whether or not when driving a car in gt5 (that has an h-pattern shifter) using your own h-pattern shifter puts you at a disadvantage.

I agree that semi-auto transmission are faster than h-pattern transmissions. But I just did the test jjaisli suggested and using the h-pattern shifter and clutch I was able to pull ahead by a few inches before I ran out of straight on that the short suzuka track (gears 1 through 5).

I used a Lotus Elise 111r that had been tuned for the Tsukuba Expert Event on the shortest suzuka track. Before starting my control lap I came to a stop at the last grid spot on the left before the start/finish line. I then used the paddle shifters on my G27 to accelerate down the straight, shifting as close to 10,000 rpm as I could each time. I then completed the lap and then exited and re-entered so I'd have that lap as a ghost. I then did the same thing as before, stopped at last grid on left before start/finish. Accelerated down the straight with the H-Pattern shifter on my G27. Now I'll admit, I wasn't fast enough at shifting the first 3 times I tried, and if you screw up once, you lose a lot of distance very quickly. But on my fourth try I was able to pull ahead by about a foot before I ran out of track.

So...in conclusion, if you're really fast with the H-shifter, I think you can exceed the shifting speed of shifting with a button. But I'd probably say you're still at a disadvantage, the computer never screws up, and I do all the time...

Remember, I'm not saying that in real life an H-pattern transmission is faster than a semi-auto transmission. I'm saying that when you're driving a car in GT5 that has an H-pattern shifter, using your own H-pattern shifter can be faster than using a button to tell GT5 to shift it for you.
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It's defiantly going to be a lot closer if your extremely good at using an H shifter and you can change gears very quickly but all in all IMO you'll still be at the slightest disadvantage.

I thank you for testing this theory first before making conclusive statements man, thumbs up. 👍
 
G27, 2nd to 3rd:

1. Get to correct RPM
2. Let off the accelerator
3. Press clutch
4. Move H shifter to correct position
5. Press accelerator pedal
6. Depress clutch


OR

DS3 2nd to 3rd:
1. Press R1






Which is faster. Hmm....
 
DaLightninRacer
G27, 2nd to 3rd:

1. Get to correct RPM
2. Let off the accelerator
3. Press clutch
4. Move H shifter to correct position
5. Press accelerator pedal
6. Depress clutch

OR

DS3 2nd to 3rd:
1. Press R1

Which is faster. Hmm....
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Switch 5 & 6 or you will end up in neutral.


Otherwisee :tup
 
i agree that using high tech solutions steered by paddles may shift up/down faster, but what about all the help you can get from the manual shifting and the clutch while cornering and or breaking ?
You may loose a second on the straight, just to get back 2 or more in the next corner combination.
 
Well in GT5:Prologue H-pattern users were at a great advantage. Whilst you let off the gas, when the clutch was engaged the car kept accelerating, whilst the game would automatically let off the throttle using paddles or buttons. Some people abused this to set time trials by modifying their shifter so as to engage the clutch when they move the shifter. People gained huge advantages on the straights with this, and it's the reason the clutch is banned in the WRS and other GTP events for example.

In GT5 though, the car doesn't accelerate while you are lifting off (It's more realistic in that sense). But the semi-automatic/sequential configuration most people use hasn't changed. Whilst it does lift off the throttle noticeably, the computer is able to change faster than you are able to with the clutch. Some cars in real life can do this (See Nissan GTR) and for some reason, every car in the game has a super quick sequential gearbox if you're not using the clutch.

It's a game and it can't be helped without disadvantaging those without proper setups even further, which would alienate well over half of their player market.
 
Seems people didn't read any of my posts.

Pressing R1 to shift still takes time, in fact, it takes a very specific amount of time. In my test I used a lotus elise with the upgraded clutch and flywheel, so when shifting with a button it shifted as fast as possible in the game and I could still beat it using the H-pattern shifter. I guess next I should try a car that doesn't have the shifting upgrades and see how much more of a pronounced difference there is, if any.

And all these arguments about how many steps it takes to shift manually are ignoring the fact that there's really only 2 steps.

1. Push clutch in
2. Let clutch out

All other steps happen while you're moving the clutch. So I can shift about as fast as I can stomp on the clutch pedal.
 
Dunno what about you, but i can pretty much instant shift with clutch. Dont be afraid to break it just slam it around. I shift gears faster then the paddles on the side. Just practice. Do it FAST
 
As for the IRL manual vs auto debate, it can go either way. With new technology used in auto transmissions now, they can be as quick, and sometimes quicker than their manual counterpart in a drag race. In the older days, though, a manual in a stock car was normally faster at accelerating. For instance, take a 87-93 5.0 Mustang, with a manual transmission, is very impressive, even in stock form. Take that same car with an automatic, and it wouldn't pull a greasy string out of a cat butt. However, take a look at the new Challengers, and see which have the fastest times at drag racing. The 6-speed cars can not compete with the auto cars, but I would not trade my 6-speed RT for an auto, EVER. I have personally got my 0-60 times pretty close to the auto guys, but I had to make a perfect launch and shift everytime, and the auto guys can just mash the gas and run the same.
 
The difference of speed beetween IRL Auto Vs. Manual cars is much more complicated than just the difference of shifter speed.

For one, a standard (torque converter based) Automatic trans has a much larger mechanical draw on the engine. Basically it means two identical motors will produce different RWHP if one has an Automatic bolted to it and the other has a Manual.

Secondly, typically an Automatic will have different gear ratios. If the manual car has a 5 speed, and the Automatic has a 4 speed, then it makes sense that the Automatic car will have wider gear ratios and therefore accelerate slower.

I know this has nothing to do with the OP's post, but it seems like the thread has moved into a separate topic.
 
Crazed_Coupe
I recently just "upgraded" to a G27 from the the DFGT and I do like this wheel in general a lot more but one of the best features IMO is the six speed stick shift on the G27, I think it adds tons of realism to the game and it also functions just the way it would in real life which is a huge plus for me.

My question is, do you stick shift wheel owners think that we're at a disadvantage when it comes to drag racing or just racing in general considering we have to let off the gas in order to go through the necessary process of shifting between gears?

I ask this question because I was recently drag racing people on SSR7 in the same car completely stock and it seemed as if every time I let off the accelerator to engage the clutch and shift to the next gear the other car would pull on me just a slight bit and eventually after letting off the accelerator six times to get through six gears, he pulled in front of me and won.

I personally think that we're at a slight disadvantage but I want to hear what you guys think about it!
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i want to get an h patern wheel, but what about cars with 7 or 8 speeds, will i only get to use the first 6?
 
mrluckypants
i want to get an h patern wheel, but what about cars with 7 or 8 speeds, will i only get to use the first 6?
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In cars with more than 6 gears you'll typically use the paddle shifters on the wheel. Especially since these cars usually have paddle shifters, or sequential transmissions IRL anyway.
 
PawnBoy
Seems people didn't read any of my posts.

Pressing R1 to shift still takes time, in fact, it takes a very specific amount of time. In my test I used a lotus elise with the upgraded clutch and flywheel, so when shifting with a button it shifted as fast as possible in the game and I could still beat it using the H-pattern shifter. I guess next I should try a car that doesn't have the shifting upgrades and see how much more of a pronounced difference there is, if any.

And all these arguments about how many steps it takes to shift manually are ignoring the fact that there's really only 2 steps.

1. Push clutch in
2. Let clutch out

All other steps happen while you're moving the clutch. So I can shift about as fast as I can stomp on the clutch pedal.
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I still don't see how the H pattern is faster as you say, shifting up with the DS3 is super easy and from my experience there is no delay when going up into the next gear...

mrluckypants
i want to get an h patern wheel, but what about cars with 7 or 8 speeds, will i only get to use the first 6?
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I've always wondered about that but I don't drive cars with 7 or 8 speeds on a regular basis to be honest. I do know that if you have a 5 speed and you go into 6th it'll act as going into 5th gear and nothing will happen.

Edit: I agree with the post above mine if the car has more than 6 gears.
 
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PawnBoy
In cars with more than 6 gears you'll typically use the paddle shifters on the wheel. Especially since these cars usually have paddle shifters, or sequential transmissions IRL anyway.
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that makes more sense
 
PawnBoy
Seems people didn't read any of my posts.

Pressing R1 to shift still takes time, in fact, it takes a very specific amount of time. In my test I used a lotus elise with the upgraded clutch and flywheel, so when shifting with a button it shifted as fast as possible in the game and I could still beat it using the H-pattern shifter. I guess next I should try a car that doesn't have the shifting upgrades and see how much more of a pronounced difference there is, if any.

And all these arguments about how many steps it takes to shift manually are ignoring the fact that there's really only 2 steps.

1. Push clutch in
2. Let clutch out

All other steps happen while you're moving the clutch. So I can shift about as fast as I can stomp on the clutch pedal.
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Fine Let's assume that you are the fastest manual shifter on the planet. You would still be slower with the H shifter than the DS3 in a straight line because when you take your foot off the accelerator, and push in the clutch the car stops accelerating. With the DS3 I do not have to stop accelerating to shift. The car accelerates the entire time. Therefore the H shifter will be slower in a straight line.
 
IceGT
Fine Let's assume that you are the fastest manual shifter on the planet. You would still be slower with the H shifter than the DS3 in a straight line because when you take your foot off the accelerator, and push in the clutch the car stops accelerating. With the DS3 I do not have to stop accelerating to shift. The car accelerates the entire time. Therefore the H shifter will be slower in a straight line.
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The car accelerates the whole time?
Isn't that why they altered the clutch from GTprologue? Or am I missing something.

Forgive my stupidity but the advantage has switched from manual shift with clutch (GTP) to manual shift on pad (GT5).

Odd that.
They could have left the clutch how it was if the pad users get the permanent power band.
 
DaLightninRacer
G27, 2nd to 3rd:

1. Get to correct RPM
2. Let off the accelerator
3. Press clutch
4. Move H shifter to correct position
5. Press accelerator pedal
6. Depress clutch


OR

DS3 2nd to 3rd:
1. Press R1






Which is faster. Hmm....
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Your upshift is R1? What's your gas? R2? That's awkward. I use R2 for gas and X for upshift. Square for downshift.

When I had my G27 I noticed from the get-go that using the H-pattern was significantly slower than a button-press. However, a button-press is significantly LESS FUN than the H-pattern. And drag racing in GT5 is joketastic unless you cheat with TCS on 1 like all those winners do and use paddles/pad. You won't win a drag with H-pattern unless the other car has a significant hp or weight disadvantage. In all honesty you're 75% bound to hit Neutral when you try to grab 2nd. And if you pussy-foot it to make sure you get 2nd, you just lost precious time. Now that I ponder it, I realize I'm glad I sold that wheel. Polyphony couldn't care less about the G27.
 
fitftw
Your upshift is R1? What's your gas? R2? That's awkward. I use R2 for gas and X for upshift. Square for downshift.

When I had my G27 I noticed from the get-go that using the H-pattern was significantly slower than a button-press. However, a button-press is significantly LESS FUN than the H-pattern. And drag racing in GT5 is joketastic unless you cheat with TCS on 1 like all those winners do and use paddles/pad. You won't win a drag with H-pattern unless the other car has a significant hp or weight disadvantage. In all honesty you're 75% bound to hit Neutral when you try to grab 2nd. And if you pussy-foot it to make sure you get 2nd, you just lost precious time. Now that I ponder it, I realize I'm glad I sold that wheel. Polyphony couldn't care less about the G27.
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Well I personally think it was a great purchase and even though GT5 might not completely support the G27 it still works they way I want it to and hopefully in the upcoming GT series they will make more options available to the wheel but that is doubtful to be honest.
 
Do away with the clutch altogether...

1) flappy paddle to first
2) place H shifter into first gear
3) accelerate to shift point & throw it to next gear (rinse & repeat)
4) downshift the same

No clutch/misshifting problem again.
 
HumanDestroyah
Do away with the clutch altogether...

1) flappy paddle to first
2) place H shifter into first gear
3) accelerate to shift point & throw it to next gear (rinse & repeat)
4) downshift the same

No clutch/misshifting problem again.
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That takes away from the realism and fun though IMO.
 

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