Manual or Auto

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If you have a G25 and are using the clutch, you can shift manually quite a bit quicker than the computer will shift for you in auto or when using manual gears with a pad. The level of difference is higher in some cars than others, e.g. faster changes are easily achievable in the Lotus Elise.

Naturally, this is dependant on how quickly you are able to engage the clutch, push the stick into gear and then disengage the clutch. If you're trying to be too quick, you might just mis-shift all together!
 
I see a lot of correct info on engine (more correctly compression) braking in this thread, mainly from PB, and a lot of mis-information.

The following is from a thread on GT4 and braking and specifically covers compression braking...

Compression Braking

Compression braking or as it is commonly know Engine braking is an often used and just as often misunderstood term. I hope in this post to clarify exactly what it is and how it functions as well as discuss its use, miss-use and disadvantages for track use.

In a future post I will also be looking at how Compression braking has been implemented in GT4.


How does Compression Braking work?

In the simplest terms Compression Braking is using the engine to slow the car. It occurs because unless the clutch is engaged and/or the brakes are applied the speed of the driven wheels is determined by the engine; remove your foot from the throttle and the engine will slow and with it the driven wheels. However if you remove your foot from the throttle and engage the clutch, the engine and driven wheels are not connected and the only thing slowing the car will be friction from the tyres and the resistance of the air, as a result the car will take much longer to stop.

This is all fairly simple stuff and it is possible to judge approximately what speed a car should be doing at any engine speed in a particular gear, using the ‘MPH per 1,000 rpm’ figure, which is derived from the cars gear ratios, axle ratio and tyre diameter.

If for example we take the Ford GT, with the following MPH per 1,000 rpm figures as an example.

1 = 9.8
2 = 15
3 = 20.1
4 = 27.2
5 = 33.2
6 = 40.6

Now using these figures we can examine Compression braking both in gear and through the gears.

If the car is in 3rd gear at 5,000rpm the car speed would be approx 100.5 mph, if you lifted off the throttle completely and relied on the drop in engine speed to slow the car the speed would drop according to the engine speed (if you remain in 3rd gear) as follows.

5,000 rpm = 100.5 mph
4,000 rpm = 80.4 mph
3,000 rpm = 60.3 mph
etc

This clearly shows the relationship between allowing engine speed to drop and it slowing the car; the amount of time this would take depends on a number of factors, such as engine compression ratio (generally the high this is the quicker the drop in engine speed) and flywheel and driveshaft weight. Using this method to slow the car down will always be far, far slower that using the brakes.


Compression braking when changing down through the gears can have a far more dramatic effect as illustrated below (using the Ford GT figures).

The car is travelling at approx 100 mph in 3rd gear (approx 5,000 rpm) when the driver begins to brake slowing the car to 50mph, the speed required to take our imaginary corner.

At this point the gear is changed to 2nd with the revs at approx 2,000 rpm, when the clutch is disengaged the engine speed dictates a speed of 30mph (2 * 15mph per 1,000 rpm).

The car is travelling at 50mph, but the engine speed and gearing dictate that it should be travelling at 30mph. This 20mph difference in the speed the car is travelling at compared with the speed the engine wants to travel at is going to be transferred to the driven wheels and slow the car in a dramatic and un-controlled manner. In turn the wheels will also try to resist this rapid deceleration and speed up the engine.

If however the driver had ‘blipped’ the throttle to approx 3,300 rpm before the clutch is disengaged then the engine speed would match the car speed and no additional braking would be experienced, keeping the car stable.

Compression braking on the road
Many driver use compression braking on the road when changing gear to help slow the car and with older cars it can help if the brakes are poor or fading. With modern cars it is generally considered unnecessary as the braking system is more that sufficient.

Many people would argue that using compression braking saves on wear and tear on the brakes, however just as many people would say that what you save in pads and discs you lose in wear and tear to the engine and drive-train. Its hard to say who is 100% right on this one as it would vary from car to car and driver to driver.

On a personal level I don’t using compression braking when changing down as I consider the sudden braking force it generates too sharp and prefer the smoother experience you get with heel and toe downshift that match engine speed to road speed.

One useful aspect of in-gear compression braking is often used in off road driving when descending a steep slope, here the rev limiter and knowledge of mph per 1,000 rpm can be used to control your descent speed without touching any of the pedals.


Compression braking on the track
I would be surprised if many professional drivers use compression braking (even on endurance events) and I am yet to come across a race school that recommends its use. While it does help conserve the pads, it does no good to a race tuned engine; they are not designed to slow the car, but to power it.

With Compression braking it is very difficult to judge how much additional deceleration you will get, as a result if you are already at the threshold of braking (or near it) you could well overload the tyres grip level and lose control, flat spots on the tyres will result which will hammer your lap times.

Changing the pads on an endurance race spec car is relatively quick and easy, and a task regularly carried out in the pits during endurance racing. It is also far less time consuming to have to change the pads, than it is replace an engine component (or retire through engine failure) or lose time over a number of laps because you've just flat spotted a tyre.

I have watched numerous endurance races, and have session reviews of Le Mans dating back to the 1960's, also a documentary on the Morgan team at Le Mans and Bathurst. I can't remember ever hearing a driver talk of using compression braking out of choice. Now if the brakes have failed for some reason, you may not have a choice; but that’s a different thing.

You should also remember that compression braking will only directly effect the driven wheels, shifting the brake bias in that direction. With the majority of race cars being rear wheel drive, this would mean a major brake bias to the rear wheels, if the car is anything other than straight you may now be in a situation of just trying to control the car rather than brake and setup the car for the corner entrance. Even if the car is in a straight line, if the car is running a high compression engine (which increases the effect of engine braking) it can be enough to lock the rear wheels and get the back of the car twitching. Neither of these scenarios is worth conserving a little bit of brake pad material. You would get more of a saving on the brakes through good brake control and technique than you ever will through engine braking.

A quick quote from Danny Sulivan (of the Skip Barber racing school) illustrates this point
"To put it into perspective, at Laguna Seca, which is hard on brakes, Rick Mears and I were team mates at Penske and Rick finished the race with only 70 thousandths of an inch of brake pad material left. I only used 70 thousandths of the pad in winning the race. People brake differently but can still run the same lap time, especially in a race"


The following is an extract from the Russ Bentley books "Speed Secrets - Profressional Race Driving Techniques"

"Again, the reason for downshifting is not to slow the car. I can't emphasise this enough. That's what brakes are for. Too many drivers try to use the engine compresion braking effect to slow the car. All they really achieve is upsetting the balance of the car and hindering braking effectiveness (if the brakes are right at the limit before locking up and you then engine braking to the rear wheels, you will probably lock up the rear brakes), and more wear and tear on the engine. Brake first, then downshift."


This is from Skip Barber's "Going Faster"

"What downshifting is really for.
We ask this basic question of every racing school class. The most frequent (and incorrect) answer is, "to help slow the car down." In a racecar with good, durable brakes (the majority of modern racecars), downshifting to help slow the car down is unnecessary. The brakes slow the car down. You downshift to get the car in the proper gear to exit the corner."


Now Russ Bentley has raced Indy cars, World Sports cars (including endurance) and is now a race instructor, Skip Barber should need no introduction, but the book I refer to has been written with the assistance of ten instructors from the Skip Barber Racing School.

Brakes slow the car, not the engine; unless your brakes are shot in which case you do not have a lot of choice, but unless you're Moss or Fangio you're not going to win like this.

Problems with Compression braking on the track

1. Its less effective than normal braking.

As Compression braking effects only the driven wheels it will have a major effect on the brake bias of the car; incorrect brake bias (or brake balance) can increase braking distances significantly. Even with 4WD cars the effect of engine braking is limited to the front/rear split of power distribution and will normally affect the brake bias negatively.

It is also not possible to accurately predict the level of Compression braking or modulate it once it has been applied, making accurate and controlled braking almost impossible.


2. It does not give ‘more’ braking force if you are already at the limit

This one is a common myth of Compression braking, that it will allow you to get more braking force for free. While in the distant past braking systems were not powerful enough to exceed the grip limit of tyres (and this is a long way in the past), modern braking systems are more than capable of exceeding the grip levels (measured in straight line braking as the slip percentage) of the tyres.

If you are already at the braking ‘threshold’ adding more braking force through compression braking is just going to exceed the slip percentage and lock the tyres.

Using the Ford GT example from above and assuming that the car was already braking at the tyres threshold (assume max 10% slip percentage for this example). If when the clutch is released (with the car at 50mph) the tyres are already using the full 10% slip in braking, the additional braking caused by compression braking (20mph vs. 50mph) will exceed the 10% max by a large margin, the rear wheels will lock, the tyres will flat spot, braking distance will actually increase and unless the car is totally straight the major rear bias will possibly cause a loss of control.


When to use Compression braking?
Obviously with road driving compression braking and its use is very much a case of personal preference; however on the track most instructors and drivers share the belief that the disadvantages more than outweigh the advantages (and some would argue that it has no advantages).

However should you find yourself in an older car (historic racing), suffering from brake fade or even brake failure then you have little choice but to use what ever method you can to slow the car.

As Skip Barber’s book says:

”In this case you certainly do use the downshift to slow the car down – but it’s a last resort”

The above info is fully researched, being a combination of sources of the highest degree of credibility (unless anyone wishes to claim to know better than Skip Barber) and my own experience of over a decade of training in the motor industry.

As said above compression braking while downshifting has no place on the race track, hell up until this year F1 cars had specific systems to stop engine braking causing problems with braking.

Scaff


Edited to add.

@Motominded
- Please stop double posting, it is not permitted here at GT Planet, if you have to add a comment, don't just post again straight after you last post, edit it instead.
 
From my limited experience, I have found that downshifting (and gear ratios in general) does have an effect on braking. Even when I put new rear end gears in my Thunderbird, I noticed a profound difference in its ability to slow down. Under heavy braking, I guess the effect is very small, unnoticable, or non existant, so maybe in a racing situation you are correct (as I don't have any real life experience with that). The next time I start up GT5P and the next time I drive my dad's 4 speed manual Chevelle, I'm going to test it out some.

Just started driving in manual last night (just bought a wheel) and found that my braking distance had been considerably shortened when relying on a little engine braking.

Its there and for me at least it make quite a difference.

I have no idea if that is considered a "bad habit" or not though.
 
Just started driving in manual last night (just bought a wheel) and found that my braking distance had been considerably shortened when relying on a little engine braking.

Its there and for me at least it make quite a difference.

I have no idea if that is considered a "bad habit" or not though.
If down shifting made your braking distances shorter, then you weren't braking hard enough in the first place.
 
You can't drive fast in an auto in gt5p. Around some corners the computer will dump it into first which it shouldn't be programed to do. The auto also shifts at what seems to be a the peak of the torque curve instead of the redline and in some cars this ****s you over big time.
 
If down shifting made your braking distances shorter, then you weren't braking hard enough in the first place.

don't really understand how that could be possible since pressing a button on the controller all the way down means you have full brakes.
 
don't really understand how that could be possible since pressing a button on the controller all the way down means you have full brakes.
So then it doesn't let you press the brakes hard enough?

I thought you were able to lock the brakes in gt5p already.
 
I think I understand what you're saying but locking your brakes is less than ideal for track racing right?
Yes, but you should be given that ability. If you are on stock tires and you brake fully and don't lock the wheels, and then you upgrade your tires, there's nothing to let you know if you're braking any harder, since they aren't "strong enough" in the first place.
 
haha I use Auto, yeah yeah real men use manuals etc, I just gotta concentrate on learning the tracks well and getting my technique down before using manual to my advantage. :)
 
You can learn the techniques because you have to nurse it around in an auto because it might shift letting the back step-out mid corner. And engine braking does slow you down faster in gt5p. If i dump it into the second from 6th at super high speed at the first corner of fugi, i stop quicker then just braking. And yes, i do push the pedal down all the way.
 
I can't count how many times I've saved myself from going way off course by downshifting. Many times if you press the brakes any harder, you'll just go straight off, but if you downshift, using the engine to slow the wheels, you can bring the car back from the brink. I've never played with Auto in any racing game.
 
Auto is way to boring, not saying that everyone should use manual, you should use what you are comfortable with, but for me it defeats the purpose of a simulation. With the G25, I usually set it to H pattern for manual cars and set it to sequential for cars with paddles or sequential shift boxes.

Its a whole new challenge now with the H pattern shifter, it requires an all new level of concentration to make sure you hit all of your gears cleanly, and properly using the heel and toe technique, it is so hard and takes time to master, but practice makes perfect and thats what I am doing. And usually thats what it takes, don't be discouraged from trying manual, soon enough you will understand how it works and you will see the benefits that come with using it.
 
You can't drive fast in an auto in gt5p. Around some corners the computer will dump it into first which it shouldn't be programed to do. The auto also shifts at what seems to be a the peak of the torque curve instead of the redline and in some cars this ****s you over big time.

As It should be then! Automatic gears are not a replacement for changing the gears yourself. if you want the most out of your gears, change them yourself. 👍 PD want to start penalising those who choose to race with automatic gears, at best they want to realistically model how automatic cars different from manual cars. 👍

On another note, manual transmission only races could 'drastically' cut the amount of idiots in a race. That's not saying that only idiots drive automatics, they don't but a HUGE proportion do! 👍

EDIT: Nice piece on compression braking there Scaff! 👍
 
I would like to see PD start by putting the proper transmissions in cars. A Ford GT doesn't have an option for an automatic transmission, just as the Buick Grand National isn't offered with a manual transmission. A car that has a 6-speed MT and a 4-speed AT shouldn't have a 6-speed AT in the game either.
 
Manual=full control of the vehicle period.All top board runners are usually all running manual trans.I used to Always run AT but will never go back to it. MT gave me full control and picked up my lap times enough to wonder why i ever ran AT.
 
I would like to see PD start by putting the proper transmissions in cars. A Ford GT doesn't have an option for an automatic transmission, just as the Buick Grand National isn't offered with a manual transmission. A car that has a 6-speed MT and a 4-speed AT shouldn't have a 6-speed AT in the game either.

All the cars have only one actual transmission (generally manual if available, automatic if that's all they've got IRL, e.g. the Lexus IS-F). The auto setting has the game shift for you without modifying the actual transmission of the car.
 
That's my point. I want to see PD fix this. If the Lexus IS-F only has an auto, you shouldn't be able to select a manual gearbox. The same should apply for the SVT Lightning and Buick Grand National, which are only offered in automatics in real life. Conversely, I want to see manual-only cars available only in manual gearboxes. If you can't buy a Ford GT or Honda S2000 with an automatic transmission, then you can't drive it in the game without shifting your own gears, too. For cars with both types of transmissions available, I want to see the proper number of gears utilized. Sure, 2005+ Mustangs have both a 5-speed manual and 5-speed automatic, but a 1999 Camaro SS has a 6-speed manual or a 4-speed automatic. The guys picking the auto shouldn't get to use all 6 gears.
 
That's my point. I want to see PD fix this. If the Lexus IS-F only has an auto, you shouldn't be able to select a manual gearbox. The same should apply for the SVT Lightning and Buick Grand National, which are only offered in automatics in real life. Conversely, I want to see manual-only cars available only in manual gearboxes. If you can't buy a Ford GT or Honda S2000 with an automatic transmission, then you can't drive it in the game without shifting your own gears, too. For cars with both types of transmissions available, I want to see the proper number of gears utilized. Sure, 2005+ Mustangs have both a 5-speed manual and 5-speed automatic, but a 1999 Camaro SS has a 6-speed manual or a 4-speed automatic. The guys picking the auto shouldn't get to use all 6 gears.

The one place I know they got this correct is with the Prius (in GT4). Even if you have your pref set at manual, it uses the CVT and there is no shifting.
 
I use manual, this is the configuration I use but I may experiment with changing the right analog stick to shift.

Directional pad/left stick - General movement
X / R2 - Acceleration
Square / L2 - Brake
O - Emergency brake
Triangle - Reverse
L1 - Down shift
R1 - Up ****
 
i never let anyone play me in AUTO. Ever......

You play manual or you don't play at all.

Thats about to got to the next level.

I had a Logitech force feedback but im upgrading to a G25.

I'm a pro at the Ferrari Challenge game with the gated 6 speed so moving to the logitech g25 isn't gonna be to much of a change.

Remember guys... its a simulator.....if you cant do the real thing, go play some crap game like Need for speed underground.

what about people who are new to the series? don t you think they should be able to learn in increments. I do. as a matter of fact, I stopped playing the gt series after GT2. I never owned a PS2 until a few months ago.
When I bought a PS3 for GT5 P I started professional, no driving aids at all. I am a huge motorsports fan and therefore I quickly started driving powerful rearwheel drive cars. I had to go back to standard then pro with a few driving aids and now I drive without driving aids.
It s a simulation but to a lot of people its not. and I dont think PD should do a game thats gonna be directed exclusively to a small group of hardcore fans.
conversely they should do a game accessible to everybody ( standard modes, driving aids, etc...) and also realistic enough to please the hardcore fans. and thats the way prologue is and its fine like this. if you want to play in pro you have races for you. for people who to play a less realistic game they have theirs.

look at the street fighter 2 series, it became so technical that the series slowly died. now capcom is doing street 4 which is gonna be simpler because they want to target a larger crowd.
 
wow, spent a while getting used to manual after reading this yesterday, more enjoyment and control over the car!
couldn't control the 111r elise before, now in manual it's much easier to keep straight!
 
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