Massa, champ, chump or chimp!

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gaz-n-nic
Is Masa a would be champ in decline since his accident?
Is he yet another victim of Alonso's chicanery?
Or were his previous good showings due to a superior car flattering his abilities?
Your views.......
 
Or were his previous good showings due to a superior car flattering his abilities?

This one...

Is Massa a would be champ in decline since his accident?

...followed by this one.

I never really rated him at Sauber. He had his chance in 2008 but that was him putting good car to use. It's all purely hypothetical whether he could have done anything better had he not had his accident. But he did and he hasn't. It's unfortunate, but that's life.
 
Felipe Massa used to be dynamite at certain middle eastern tracks. Bahrain, Malaysia.

And he was dominant at Brazil in his prime.

Ever since that accident ironically caused by a spring falling of his countryman (Barichello) Brawn car
 
I think he actually did a pretty nice qualification this week-end, he wasnt that far from Alonso today. Let's not burry him alive yet. Alonso is just a beast tho.
 
Ever since that accident ironically caused by a spring falling of his countryman (Barichello) Brawn car

That's not ironic. It's coincidental and unfortunate.

Massa was a competent racer. But I never personally rated him as being one of the best of his time. Granted they weren't the best cars, but I wasn't bowled over by his performances at Sauber; he was beaten by Heidfeld and Fisichella and just about bettered Villeneuve. He didn't do too bad with Ferrari, coming close in 2008 and all that, but then his injury came. He just hasn't been the same racer since. Even for someone in Alonso's shade his performances have been pretty dire.

He'd be more worthwhile under Famine's interesting points systems but right now, he's weighing the team down. And the current Ferrari is a cement lorry as it is.
 
has there ever been a champion #2? It just seems to be too psychologically taxing to be yielding on team orders.
 
Is he yet another victim of Alonso's chicanery?

This is it

Massa was right there with Schumacher and Raikkonen when they were teammates, sometimes beating them, and just how close did he come from winning a World Championship? One turn?

And now he can't get anywhere near Alonso? Sorry, but Alonso is not that much better then a 34 year older Schumacher or a Raikkonen.

Well, that's the way Alonso wants it. After being spanked by a rookie Hamilton, he doesn't want to go to any team where he is far and away the #1, so Ferrari is perfect for him.

I think his problems are mental, I dont think he is enjoying himself like he use to, who would, with Alonzo for a teammate.
 
Lewis Hamilton almost won it as a #2 in 2007

Eddie Irvine almost won the title as a #2 in 1999
 
well, that was a bit of a historical question, i meant #2 as in someone who had to endure team orders or someone who had to drive with schumi in ferrari post team orders:D
 
I always kinda felt that the spring accident took something away from Massa. It reminds me a bit of Top Gun and how Maverick was dealing with psychological demons after Goose died.
 
The crash didn't wreck Massa's career, having Alonso as his teammate did, Massa is at the same level anybody else (except perhaps Vettel) would be if they joined Ferrari.
 
The crash didn't wreck Massa's career, having Alonso as his teammate did, Massa is at the same level anybody else (except perhaps Vettel) would be if they joined Ferrari.

And that's why Ferrari hasn't gotten rid of him yet.
 
The crash didn't wreck Massa's career, having Alonso as his teammate did, Massa is at the same level anybody else (except perhaps Vettel) would be if they joined Ferrari.

Hmm, but there's more to it than that - Massa just doesn't seem to be able to:
1. Fight the mental battles against Alonso.
2. Display the speed to prove he is capable of beating Alonso.
3. Get the most out of a terrible car.

If it was just a matter of #2 status and being asked to move over for Fernando, surely Massa would have some podiums or wins when Alonso wasn't able to or retired?
The problem is Massa has rarely been in any position where team orders were required bar one special incident in 2010. He has rarely ever been ahead of Alonso so that he is needed to move out of the way.

One race in 2 and now looking like 3 seasons? Yeah there is more to that than simply being teammate to Alonso. Fisichella and Trulli managed to be ahead of Alonso on occasion and I don't consider those two mentally strong.

If Ferrari produce a stable and preditable car, Massa will be closer to Alonso. But as long as Ferrari keep producing average and unstable cars, Massa will struggle to get the same speed and consistencey as Alonso. I'd also say that clearly Massa isn't the driver he was in some respects (or he is wholly reliant on a decent car) because even when the car was pretty good in 2010 - Massa was still regularly behind Alonso.

Sorry guys but simply having a dominant teammate and team-orders doesn't make you slower all of the time - it simply means you have to move over from time to time and suffer from poorer strategies. But if a driver is good enough, he will still be able to shine and 1-up the status quo every now and then.
Schumacher's teammates regularly had blatant team orders and restrictive contracts but they still managed to beat him on occasion.

With the right set of circumstances, Massa could have been WDC. But this applies to almost every driver on the grid today. I think a mixture of issues have caused Massa to fall into a deep hole which he only continues to dig the more he screws up trying to make up lost ground. Sadly for him, he will seemingly be only remembered as a driver who once again made Alonso look good rather than a driver who almost achieved a WDC.
Massa has never been a top driver but he is/was pretty good. Inconsistencey and a lacking mental capacity as well as cars that don't really suit him have led to the poor results. It also doesn't help when his most successful tracks (e.g. Turkey) are taken off the calendar.

Give Webber the same contract and opportunity as Massa and I guarantee you he would on occasion out-qualify or out-race Alonso. Or Perez, Kobayashi, Rosberg, etc. Thats all anyone really expects because consistently beating Alonso is pretty much proving WDC ability - and I don't think anyone expects Massa to beat Alonso over a season even in his top form.
 
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Brazilians a dastardly Brit and A crafty Spaniard have done a number on Felipe Massa's head physically and psychologically.
 
The fact is though, he didn't. It's totally conditional.

Hakkinen never won his third title. Alesi never made that ultimate step-up. We can only speculate what might have been for von Trips, Rindt, Cevert and so on.

True, but it's nice to speculate.
 
I always kinda felt that the spring accident took something away from Massa. It reminds me a bit of Top Gun and how Maverick was dealing with psychological demons after Goose died.

So you're saying what Massa really needs is Tom Skerritt?

TopGun19.jpeg
 
MazdaPrice
The fact is though, he didn't. It's totally conditional.

Hakkinen never won his third title. Alesi never made that ultimate step-up. We can only speculate what might have been for von Trips, Rindt, Cevert and so on.

I think Ferrari didn't have team orders in 1961, except for "hold positions if one if us leading".
 
This is it

Massa was right there with Schumacher and Raikkonen when they were teammates, sometimes beating them, and just how close did he come from winning a World Championship? One turn?

And now he can't get anywhere near Alonso? Sorry, but Alonso is not that much better then a 34 year older Schumacher or a Raikkonen.

Well, that's the way Alonso wants it. After being spanked by a rookie Hamilton, he doesn't want to go to any team where he is far and away the #1, so Ferrari is perfect for him.

I think his problems are mental, I dont think he is enjoying himself like he use to, who would, with Alonzo for a teammate.

THIS +1 :lol:
 
Massa is a good driver on occasion. The only problem is for the last two seasons Ferrari haven't been close enough to the front. In 2010 Massa was actually pretty close to Alonso most of the time, and sadly this is not reflected in points.

In the first race of 2011 (Melbourne) Massa had to move over for Alonso after Button cut the chicane, so that he would have to let both of them pass, I think this set the stage for a bad year for Felipe because he in fact lost a position despite Button being penalised. There was little discussion about it at the time because team orders are now allowed.

He's racing in the shadow of Fernando Alonso, in a car which for the past 3 seasons has been behind Mclaren and Red Bull for the majority of races. Let's forget about replacing Massa for a moment; if we were to replace Alonso with near anyone else on the grid Massa would not look so mediocre, but he won't stand out either. We can speculate as to whether this was a result of the crash or whether he can't handle the slick tyres or whether his abilities were flattered by the car beneath him pre-2009. I reckon it's a combination of the three to be honest.
 
It does beggar the question of how long Ferrari will keep faith with him though. The manufacturers title can't be won by one driver, he needs consistent support and lets face it, teams want to see some competition between their own drivers to "keep them honest". Personally I wish he'd retired after the accident. He'd started getting into the blame game not long before and I've a tendancey to see this as a sign of disillusionment in his own abilities. The margin between champion and also ran is so close nowadays its hardly surprising.
 
It was painful to watch Massa in the Malaysian grand prix, after being told that he's catching up on the next car, few moments later he made a mistake. As compared to Alonso he's doing very badly, I do hope that he'll prove himself in the next few races though, even though I'm not exactly a fan of his. But for now, he's everything but champ...
 
Just a thought but I wonder if Schumi's return and Massa's desire to beat him have a bearing? Is Massa's ego doing the driving now?
 
MazdaPrice
Well he's failing, regardless.

Failing badly. I've never been a fan, I find his whingeing too much to cope with. But its sad to see his demise. I honestly feel he is just a couple of bad performances away from a tail end spot in NASCAR.
 
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